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Question: Do you agree with idea "Bitcoin bank" ?
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Author Topic: Do you agree with idea "Bitcoin bank" ?  (Read 138966 times)
grta14
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December 15, 2016, 08:53:20 AM
 #661

the idea of bitcoin banking i think is a welcome idea because it will become an avenue for people to more of the existent of bitcoin and it value to the economic and as such bringing the government to make it well know to the people and hereby been accepted by people in the economy so bitcoin bank is a good idea
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December 15, 2016, 09:44:28 AM
 #662

Why not a bitcoin bank?
I think can be a fantastic opportunity, get a place where you can store your coins, get really interest, get "protect" by the national law...  Huh



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Senor.Bla
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December 15, 2016, 10:09:28 AM
 #663

Why not a bitcoin bank?
I think can be a fantastic opportunity, get a place where you can store your coins, get really interest, get "protect" by the national law...  Huh
How about your computer, a paper wallet or something else to store YOUR coins. Because if you give the private keys to someone else, then it is not your money anymore. What is real interest? if you want to invest the money, then invest in some company or something. money does not grow just by keeping it looked away. Please explain to me how a bank can protect me better against the national law then i can do myself. 

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December 15, 2016, 10:17:23 AM
 #664

Why not a bitcoin bank?
I think can be a fantastic opportunity, get a place where you can store your coins, get really interest, get "protect" by the national law...  Huh
How about your computer, a paper wallet or something else to store YOUR coins. Because if you give the private keys to someone else, then it is not your money anymore. What is real interest? if you want to invest the money, then invest in some company or something. money does not grow just by keeping it looked away. Please explain to me how a bank can protect me better against the national law then i can do myself. 

Your post is packed with self-contradictions like a flea-bag with fleas

You talk about investing in some company or something and at the same time insist on storing bitcoins locally, in your computer (or paper wallet). How is giving the private keys to someone else different from investing the same bitcoins in some company? You would still have to give your keys by transferring the funds. Further, how investing in something differs essentially from investing in a Bitcoin bank? If the Bitcoin bank pays you interest doesn't that count as an investment in its own right already, any way you look at it? And last but not least, if banks are legally allowed to accept your bitcoins, they could insure them, and in that very case they would be protected better than the coins in your personal wallet

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December 15, 2016, 10:25:56 AM
 #665

the idea of bitcoin banking i think is a welcome idea because it will become an avenue for people to more of the existent of bitcoin and it value to the economic and as such bringing the government to make it well know to the people and hereby been accepted by people in the economy so bitcoin bank is a good idea

You seriously have no idea what you are talking about. You compare traditional banking to a service such as blockchain.info that might call itself a Bitcoin bank. Because that's exactly what it will be. Look at Xapo, Coinsbank, Coinbase, BitPay, these services can also be seen as a Bitcoin bank. Governments will never support something that goes against all their values and potentially can do a significant amount of harm to their economy. This is something that a certain number of people still haven't realized.

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December 15, 2016, 10:37:14 AM
 #666

Sheeple will always want someone to hold their hands & money and tell them what they can and can not do. The entire concept of Bitcoin is to get away from traditional banking mentality. You're your own boss, you're the Bank. Why do people have this need to be dominated in the most critical aspect of their lives: Finance.

I don't get it.

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December 15, 2016, 10:46:07 AM
 #667

i think bitcoin bank is necessary for bitcoin users ,
for what ? i think bank local can help bitcoin users .
so i think if there is bitcoin bank for what ? i think no need

Uhmm I don't know anything about your logic but for me Bitcoin Wallets are as good as banks for holding the Bitcoin you have. With its given volatility it's more than any Interest bearing savings account in a bank. Putting money in a bank is just making big companies even richer while our money is not anywhere near what we expect from it.

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deisik
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December 15, 2016, 10:50:52 AM
 #668

the idea of bitcoin banking i think is a welcome idea because it will become an avenue for people to more of the existent of bitcoin and it value to the economic and as such bringing the government to make it well know to the people and hereby been accepted by people in the economy so bitcoin bank is a good idea

You seriously have no idea what you are talking about. You compare traditional banking to a service such as blockchain.info that might call itself a Bitcoin bank. Because that's exactly what it will be. Look at Xapo, Coinsbank, Coinbase, BitPay, these services can also be seen as a Bitcoin bank. Governments will never support something that goes against all their values and potentially can do a significant amount of harm to their economy. This is something that a certain number of people still haven't realized.

I don't think this is a correct view

The difference between banks and other financial institutions such as web wallets (even if they have the word bank in their name) is that banks can loan money to borrowers while web wallets can't. This is a distinguishing feature of any genuine bank (i.e. attracting money from depositors and loaning it to borrowers). Regarding governments never supporting something which could potentially bring harm to their economy, it is also debatable. Bitcoin would most certainly cause damage to a fiat monetary system as such, but not real economy. In fact, anything that would facilitate the exchange of goods better than the currently existing system could only push the real economy forward, not hurt it

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December 15, 2016, 10:53:32 AM
 #669

Why not a bitcoin bank?
I think can be a fantastic opportunity, get a place where you can store your coins, get really interest, get "protect" by the national law...  Huh
How about your computer, a paper wallet or something else to store YOUR coins. Because if you give the private keys to someone else, then it is not your money anymore. What is real interest? if you want to invest the money, then invest in some company or something. money does not grow just by keeping it looked away. Please explain to me how a bank can protect me better against the national law then i can do myself. 

Your post is packed with self-contradictions like a flea-bag with fleas

You talk about investing in some company or something and at the same time insist on storing bitcoins locally, in your computer (or paper wallet). How is giving the private keys to someone else different from investing the same bitcoins in some company? You would still have to give your keys by transferring the funds. Further, how investing in something differs essentially from investing in a Bitcoin bank? If the Bitcoin bank pays you interest doesn't that count as an investment in its own right already, any way you look at it? And last but not least, if banks are legally allowed to accept your bitcoins, they could insure them, and in that very case they would be protected better than the coins in your personal wallet
I see that i have to explain more. You can do one of two things. Store or invest. If you want to store your Bitcoin do so on your computer. If you want to invest, then invest in something that creates value.
When it comes to storing, then i can do a better job then a bank. if i still feel the need of an insurance, then i do it directly with the insurance company and bypass the additional fees the bank will take for it.
If i want to invest, then i have to give my money to a company (unless i want to start my own and invest in myself). In this case it does not matter in which form it is. It can be Bitcoin, fiat or whatever we agree on. There is always a risk involved.
If you think you can give money to a bank and they just store it for you, which means that they do not invest it, and give you an interest rate on top of that, then you are wrong. Because if they promise an interest rate, then they do invest that money, they just do not tell you about it. If they make a good profit, then they keep the earnings for themselves and just pay you the promised interest. But they can also lose and if they lose to much you might not see your money, as this is not risk free. 

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December 15, 2016, 11:39:00 AM
 #670

The difference between banks and other financial institutions such as web wallets (even if they have the word bank in their name) is that banks can loan money to borrowers while web wallets can't. This is a distinguishing feature of any genuine bank (i.e. attracting money from depositors and loaning it to borrowers).

It was a soft comparison, and not a direct hit. Nothing prevents web wallets or exchanges to hand out bank-like features such as loans, or exchanges that allow their traders to loan out their coins through the exchange's platform (which is already a reality). The main fact is that people still take the term "Bitcoin bank" way too serious. They see it as an official institution which it's obviously not.

Regarding governments never supporting something which could potentially bring harm to their economy, it is also debatable. Bitcoin would most certainly cause damage to a fiat monetary system as such, but not real economy.

If the fiat monetary system is being hammered on, how would that not translate into the real world economy experiencing the negative effects as result of that? They are closely tied to each other.

In fact, anything that would facilitate the exchange of goods better than the currently existing system could only push the real economy forward, not hurt it

Correct, but that's not how governments look at it. Especially when it comes to something as Bitcoin that they have zero control over. In that regard, they are better off creating their own digital currency with the exact features of Bitcoin, but with the government as central point.

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December 15, 2016, 11:45:05 AM
 #671

If you think you can give money to a bank and they just store it for you, which means that they do not invest it, and give you an interest rate on top of that, then you are wrong. Because if they promise an interest rate, then they do invest that money, they just do not tell you about it. If they make a good profit, then they keep the earnings for themselves and just pay you the promised interest. But they can also lose and if they lose to much you might not see your money, as this is not risk free. 

I don't quite understand what you exactly mean by me being wrong

When I open a deposit in a bank, the bank sets the interest rate which it will pay on my deposit. Whether it is going to sit on the money or reinvest it, I pretty much don't care as long as they don't scam. I can't possibly see how this type of investment is different from any other investment, apart from a fixed interest, of course. On the other hand, it is expected that the bank would be loaning my money to other people and earning profits, part of which it will share with me

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December 15, 2016, 12:18:25 PM
 #672

If you think you can give money to a bank and they just store it for you, which means that they do not invest it, and give you an interest rate on top of that, then you are wrong. Because if they promise an interest rate, then they do invest that money, they just do not tell you about it. If they make a good profit, then they keep the earnings for themselves and just pay you the promised interest. But they can also lose and if they lose to much you might not see your money, as this is not risk free. 

I don't quite understand what you exactly mean by me being wrong

When I open a deposit in a bank, the bank sets the interest rate which it will pay on my deposit. Whether it is going to sit on the money or reinvest it, I pretty much don't care as long as they don't scam. I can't possibly see how this type of investment is different from any other investment, apart from a fixed interest, of course. On the other hand, it is expected that the bank would be loaning my money to other people and earning profits, part of which it will share with me
i do not mean that you personally are wrong, but most people have a wrong idea of the things a bank does. You go to a bank and give them your money and they pay you some interest for it.
So some people think they will lock the money in a safe, keep the money safe and there it will wait for your return. but banks do not do that. not even if you ask them to. Banks do not store money, they invest your money. the only way to store money in a bank is to put cash in a deposit box in a bank. for that you pay instead of getting an interest rate.
Most people think they put your money to good use, like loaning it to other people. But sadly this is wrong again. And here comes a thing called fractional reserve into play. let us say you deposited $100, then this means that they can give someone else a loan of up to $1000. they take your $100 and just make the other $900 up. They act like they have more money then they really have. This is a scam to me, but it is legal. So even if someone asks only for a loan of $100, they will not give them your $100, but take $10 of your $100 as reserve and make the other $90 up, so they can loan out $100 and keep your $90 for someone es who is willing to take out a loan. They do this because this is how they make money. They create money. They want you to take a loan.
Here is something i like: let us assume you want to buy a car and need some extra money to afford it. You go to your bank and take a loan to buy the car. As insurance for the loan you bank accepts your new car. This means you get money from the bank and pay the seller of the car and the car is yours, but if you fail to pay back your bank then your car will become the banks car. Why does the bank not just buy the car from the seller and you pay the bank until you have paid the full price and the car is yours and if you fail to pay them, then the bank owns the car. This can not be done, because the bank does not have the money. Only by taking out a loan they create the money. And by creating money they earn money, so they want you to take a loan.

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December 15, 2016, 12:21:14 PM
 #673

The difference between banks and other financial institutions such as web wallets (even if they have the word bank in their name) is that banks can loan money to borrowers while web wallets can't. This is a distinguishing feature of any genuine bank (i.e. attracting money from depositors and loaning it to borrowers).

It was a soft comparison, and not a direct hit. Nothing prevents web wallets or exchanges to hand out bank-like features such as loans, or exchanges that allow their traders to loan out their coins through the exchange's platform (which is already a reality). The main fact is that people still take the term "Bitcoin bank" way too serious. They see it as an official institution which it's obviously not

I expected that you would mention exchanges. This is how they make marginal trading possible, but I guess it has little to do with genuine borrowing. Really, the money you borrowed from other traders is not spendable, apart from opening a short position with it, and that's pretty much all there's to it. Banks, on the other hand, don't limit you in any way in respect to where you are going to spend the borrowed funds. You may gamble them right away...

So there is still a big difference

If the fiat monetary system is being hammered on, how would that not translate into the real world economy experiencing the negative effects as result of that? They are closely tied to each other

In the long run the result will be exactly as I described in my post. Provided Bitcoin (or any other cryptocurrency, for that matter) does actually offer substantial advantages over the fiat money (which is debatable)

Correct, but that's not how governments look at it. Especially when it comes to something as Bitcoin that they have zero control over. In that regard, they are better off creating their own digital currency with the exact features of Bitcoin, but with the government as central point.

That won't work since governments spoil everything they touch, and people would switch to Bitcoin instead of using their copycat coin. So, they would be shooting themselves in the foot simply because existing Bitcoin users won't use the government cryptocurrency anyway, while new users will end up using Bitcoin

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December 15, 2016, 12:58:27 PM
 #674

Why I have voted Yes? hrmm Huh I realized, what will be the good effects if there will be a bitcoin bank? Who can take benefits? If ever a bitcoin bank exist, of course it will stored so the supply will go down. So it has a clear disadvantage. So for this post I'll go for not agree.

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deisik
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December 15, 2016, 01:23:28 PM
 #675

If you think you can give money to a bank and they just store it for you, which means that they do not invest it, and give you an interest rate on top of that, then you are wrong. Because if they promise an interest rate, then they do invest that money, they just do not tell you about it. If they make a good profit, then they keep the earnings for themselves and just pay you the promised interest. But they can also lose and if they lose to much you might not see your money, as this is not risk free.  

I don't quite understand what you exactly mean by me being wrong

When I open a deposit in a bank, the bank sets the interest rate which it will pay on my deposit. Whether it is going to sit on the money or reinvest it, I pretty much don't care as long as they don't scam. I can't possibly see how this type of investment is different from any other investment, apart from a fixed interest, of course. On the other hand, it is expected that the bank would be loaning my money to other people and earning profits, part of which it will share with me
i do not mean that you personally are wrong, but most people have a wrong idea of the things a bank does. You go to a bank and give them your money and they pay you some interest for it.
So some people think they will lock the money in a safe, keep the money safe and there it will wait for your return. but banks do not do that. not even if you ask them to. Banks do not store money, they invest your money. the only way to store money in a bank is to put cash in a deposit box in a bank. for that you pay instead of getting an interest rate.
Most people think they put your money to good use, like loaning it to other people. But sadly this is wrong again

In the case of hard currencies (like Bitcoin), it is exactly the way banks would work

And here comes a thing called fractional reserve into play. let us say you deposited $100, then this means that they can give someone else a loan of up to $1000. they take your $100 and just make the other $900 up. They act like they have more money then they really have. This is a scam to me, but it is legal. So even if someone asks only for a loan of $100, they will not give them your $100, but take $10 of your $100 as reserve and make the other $90 up, so they can loan out $100 and keep your $90 for someone es who is willing to take out a loan. They do this because this is how they make money. They create money. They want you to take a loan

I suspect that you don't quite understand how the fractional reserve banking works. If we talk about Bitcoin, they can lend only as much as you put in a bank minus the reserves, otherwise they will be abusing the system. With fiat, they don't need deposits altogether to make loans, so the FRB is utterly irrelevant in this case. Banks in a banking system with a central bank can create money "on the fly", they are only limited by one side, and that side is the number of borrowers willing to take a loan from a bank, not depositors willing to give a loan to a bank. If the number of eligible borrowers is infinite, banks will create infinite amount of money (with the Central bank being a "reserve"). This is an intended feature of the system...

You can safely forget what you had been taught in economics classes about modern banking

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December 15, 2016, 01:52:52 PM
 #676

So what is the use of bitcoin bank if there are already wallet which acts as you personal bank? It doesnt make sense to me. That will be more expensive just like other wallets. There are so many choice sto secure our bitcoins. Cold storage is the best for huge amount. Simple wallet like xapo, mycellium and coinbase etc. are good for smaller amounts. I dont see bitcoin bank useful because banks are centralize. Its against bitcoin.

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December 15, 2016, 02:12:14 PM
 #677

I don't see when is the bad here. There will be always bitcoiners who will want bitcoin to realize their dreams and others who will want to borrow them because will want to multiply those. The bank will be the institution which will be believable for both of them. So both will be redirected to this institution. I have a question for you: What about escrows who make this "job" here in this forum and retain their percentage for the service they do? What do you think about these people? They are the "bank of bitcoin" which is in action. Where is the worst here?
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December 15, 2016, 02:13:18 PM
 #678

And here comes a thing called fractional reserve into play. let us say you deposited $100, then this means that they can give someone else a loan of up to $1000. they take your $100 and just make the other $900 up. They act like they have more money then they really have. This is a scam to me, but it is legal. So even if someone asks only for a loan of $100, they will not give them your $100, but take $10 of your $100 as reserve and make the other $90 up, so they can loan out $100 and keep your $90 for someone es who is willing to take out a loan. They do this because this is how they make money. They create money. They want you to take a loan

I suspect that you don't quite understand how the fractional reserve banking works. If we talk about Bitcoin, they can lend only as much as you put in a bank minus the reserves, otherwise they will be abusing the system. With fiat, they don't need deposits altogether to make loans, so the FRB is utterly irrelevant in this case. Banks in a banking system with a central bank can create money "on the fly", they are only limited by one side, and that side is the number of borrowers willing to take a loan from a bank, not depositors willing to give a loan to a bank. If the number of eligible borrowers is infinite, banks will create infinite amount of money (with the Central bank being a "reserve"). This is an intended feature of the system...

You can safely forget what you had been taught in economics classes about modern banking
I made the mistake of talking about fiat and not Bitcoin to explain the current bank system, but i will explain at the end how this would apply to Bitcoin. First let me explain what i think is right and how the banks work, since i think we disagree on that point and will not be able to figure out who is right.
In order to make a loan you need some money. This can be your own money, a deposit from a customer or a loan you toke from the central bank, but you need money. This money is now you reserve and you can handle this amount like it is 10 times that much. But i can only do this when i give out a loan. If i start with $100 i have only $100, but i can loan out up to $1000. Just at the moment when i give out a loan i create money that did not exist a moment ago. (BTW. This is a different form of creating money as how banks and central banks interact and create money.) So i am not allowed to create infinite amounts of money. I am limited by the percentage of the reserve i need to keep and i am limited by the amount of money i have (how big is my reserve). Because if if have initially $100 as a reserve and i need a reserve of 10%, then in order to fabricate more then $900 i need to have a bigger reserve or a lower percentage. Otherwise i do not see a reason why banks would not just make infinite money and why some banks have to close and go bankrupt if the only limit would be the willingness of the borrower. 
And now to explain how this could be applied to Bitcoin.
If you give a Bitcoin bank your private keys, you have given them your money. But they give you some kind of online place to log in where you see the amount of bitcoin you have deposited with them. But those are just number on a screen that are not backed up with a private key. they can do the same like with fiat money know. The difference is you can not make up more money when you need it. The interest rates on the loan must be paid in real Bitcoin and sooner or later someone will not be able to pay it back. This is when the real fun starts.

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December 15, 2016, 02:21:08 PM
 #679

And here comes a thing called fractional reserve into play. let us say you deposited $100, then this means that they can give someone else a loan of up to $1000. they take your $100 and just make the other $900 up. They act like they have more money then they really have. This is a scam to me, but it is legal. So even if someone asks only for a loan of $100, they will not give them your $100, but take $10 of your $100 as reserve and make the other $90 up, so they can loan out $100 and keep your $90 for someone es who is willing to take out a loan. They do this because this is how they make money. They create money. They want you to take a loan

I suspect that you don't quite understand how the fractional reserve banking works. If we talk about Bitcoin, they can lend only as much as you put in a bank minus the reserves, otherwise they will be abusing the system. With fiat, they don't need deposits altogether to make loans, so the FRB is utterly irrelevant in this case. Banks in a banking system with a central bank can create money "on the fly", they are only limited by one side, and that side is the number of borrowers willing to take a loan from a bank, not depositors willing to give a loan to a bank. If the number of eligible borrowers is infinite, banks will create infinite amount of money (with the Central bank being a "reserve"). This is an intended feature of the system...

You can safely forget what you had been taught in economics classes about modern banking
I made the mistake of talking about fiat and not Bitcoin to explain the current bank system, but i will explain at the end how this would apply to Bitcoin. First let me explain what i think is right and how the banks work, since i think we disagree on that point and will not be able to figure out who is right.

In order to make a loan you need some money

Banks don't need any money to create a loan

This is the assumption which makes all your further considerations irrelevant. Forget about reserves completely. There are countries where there are no reserve requirements at all (e.g. Canada). Reserves are needed only when someone decides to withdraw cash (that's one of the reasons the government doesn't like cash). Once you accept that, you will see how the modern banking system works. Banks don't need deposits of their clients at all to make loans. You will have to accept this, since this is how the system based on fiat works today. Whenever someone is granted a loan, it gets immediately credited to his bank account, and the balance of the bank is increased by this amount. The new money has just been created, basically out of nothing. Banks create deposits from loans as easily as they had been creating loans from deposits before

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December 15, 2016, 02:29:07 PM
 #680

yes its nice idea
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