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Author Topic: Idea for an altcoin: 3-way hybrid PoW  (Read 2361 times)
gatra
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October 25, 2016, 09:05:04 PM
 #21

The proposal of a 3-way hybrid PoW is interesting, it is undoubtedly a more secure consensus design than the current ASIC-raped one.

"undoubtedly" "more secure"? it's not even a consensus design since the method for deciding consensus (which chain is preferred when a fork is presented) is not explained!     EDIT: but it undoubtedly is interesting, agreed on that

this was not yet answered:
Quote
if there are 2 chains that only differ in the last 4 blocks but one chain has more difficulty in the mod 0 block and at the same time less difficulty in the mod 1 block. Which chain is the best?

first tell me the decision method, then we can discuss if it is more or less secure. Myriad looks more secure in some aspects, but it doesn't have POS. Those hybrid altcoins that have POS are not undoubtedly more secure.


Anybody knows of a working implementation of "Follow the satoshi"? in many cases the owner of the satoshi will not be online... I wonder how they deal with that... and how do they make sure the randomization is not manipulated.


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October 26, 2016, 05:29:09 AM
Last edit: October 26, 2016, 07:55:32 AM by BitcoinNational
 #22

'POS are not undoubtedly more secure'
'which chain is preferred when a fork is presented'

so there is still doubt despite several years of working chains? (ppc)
i would suggest the POS does NOT really 'move the chain' [in this case here /3-way hybrid PoW]

rather provides oversite, and executive rights when a fork is presented
in the meantime it manages network stuff, rewards 'vested' holders, rewards reliable working nodes, other accounting stuff

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gatra
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October 26, 2016, 06:47:44 PM
Last edit: October 27, 2016, 12:47:55 PM by gatra
 #23

so there is still doubt despite several years of working chains? (ppc)

Yes, there is doubt. PPC still has centralized checkpoints, and even with the checkpoints there is no place where you can short PPC

i would suggest the POS does NOT really 'move the chain' [in this case here /3-way hybrid PoW]

that could be a good idea: POS rewards would encourage nodes to be online without affecting security (EDIT: for this POS blocks would not count as confirmations)

rather provides oversite, and executive rights when a fork is presented

I don't understand what this means.... executive rights?


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October 27, 2016, 07:42:31 AM
Last edit: October 27, 2016, 07:53:44 AM by BitcoinNational
 #24

I don't understand what this means.... executive rights?

In case a FORK appears, and there is a great deal of chaos, the POS would hold the right to declare which is the legitimate chain.  Maybe endorsement is a better word.  

example:

5% of the POW miners signal 'Huh? there are 2 chains!'
this causes the min. confirm times to increase (prevent double spends);
and alerts the POS side to find consensus on a Last Known good block;
Once 80% of of the POS agrees things throttle back up to full speed.

POS would remain at a stand still on 'their' consensus Last Known good block, because the next block would be the fork point, it would wait there until the POW network sorts out the winner.

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October 27, 2016, 05:05:11 PM
 #25

Wow dude ! You quite sharp huh !? xP Well... don't just stand there man ! Get to it ! You have thought alot about this and thank god it is not a copy paste like most coins. You actually thought of the problems and ways to get around them. Good job on that. I hope someone that can dev takes notice because this is an opportunity. Damn I wish I could dev coins Sad I would so do this coin idea of yours.

 
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October 28, 2016, 05:47:19 AM
 #26

They mosTLY can handle the dev side. (talent is out there).
I am just conventional wisdom.
if anyone is listening ...

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October 28, 2016, 07:47:49 AM
 #27

From most secure to least secure.

PoW(alg A, ASIC-friendly)/PoS/PoW(alg B, memory hard, ASIC resistant) > PoW/PoS > PoS > PoW

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December 12, 2016, 10:04:35 AM
 #28

I've casually proposed this for Bitcoin in the past, but there's no way that something as experimental as this would ever be done in Bitcoin without at least a successful altcoin example, so it'd be cool to see it implemented in an altcoin, if any altcoin devs are interested. I have not rigorously examined this scheme for any flaw, so maybe it won't work well at all, but maybe it will.

One problem in Bitcoin is mining centralization. To solve this, I propose that the PoW be changed to the following:

 - If the block height mod 4 is 0, the PoW for that block is SHA-3 (or similar), an ASIC-friendly algorithm.
 - If the block height mod 4 is 1, the "PoW" for that block is "follow the satoshi", a form of proof-of-stake described in the Proof of Activity paper.
 - If the block height mod 4 is 2, the PoW for that block is cuckoo, a very ASIC-unfriendly algorithm.
 - If the block height mod 4 is 3, the "PoW" for that block is again "follow the satoshi".

Most likely:

 - The SHA-3 group will be controlled mainly by a handful of centralized ASIC miners as is the case with mining in Bitcoin today.
 - The cuckoo group will be controlled mainly by a handful of botnet operators, though ordinary users might also participate to some extent.
 - The PoS group will be controlled mainly by a handful of early adopters, though ordinary users might also participate to some extent.

However, importantly, all three groups need to cooperate in order to do anything majorly evil such as rewriting many past blocks. And since the three groups seem very likely to be independent, this significantly increases the decentralization and security of the system's mining.

I didn't see this when it was originally posted, thus I am late to respond.

Assuming much greater than 51% mining cartel control then if the PoW blocks provide the randomness to select the PoS address to construct the next block, then the PoW is still in control and does not need to coordinate with the PoS in order to do PoW attacks. Except in any case, the PoS can also jam the latest PoW block, thus causing ambiguity as PoW miners must decide how to long to wait before they instead produce a replacement PoW block which selects a different PoS address. This destroys the unambiguous Nash equilibrium to mine asap, thus I believe that will cause a divergence of PoW away from consensus to multiple competing partial orders because different miners will take different strategies so you have a split of the network hashrate such that no chain can definitely advance ahead of the other one (or at least you'll have massive orphan rate and selfish mining strategies with much smaller minorities of the hashrate).

If instead the PoS is using its self-referential entropy (i.e. nothing-at-stake), there can be ambiguity for PoW miners over which PoS block to build on, which can cause a divergence of PoW away from consensus to multiple competing partial orders.

As for removing the catastrophic PoS, it is an incorrect presumption that there can ever be any PoW algorithm (even hybrid) that can't be optimized by economies-of-scale. I covered this in more detail in my white paper, but here was an early version of a pertinent portion.

...

Proof-of-Work as Space Heaters Belies Economics of Specialization

Specialization enables economies-of-scale.

An example of an erroneous posited caveat[4] that proof-of-work mining resources would not become power-law distribution centralized due to the posited high electrical cost of dissipating heat in centralized mining farms coupled with the posited free electricity cost of using the “waste” heat of ASIC mining equipment as space heaters, is (in hindsight) incorrect because:

  • Two-phase immersion cooling is 4000 times more efficient at removing heat from high-power density data centers[5], reducing the 30 - 50% electricity overhead to 1%[6].
  • Electricity proximate to hydroelectric generation or subsidized electriciy costs approximately 50 - 75% less than the average electricity cost.
  • Heating is rarely needed year-round, 24 hours daily, at full output. Not running mining hardware at full output continuously renders its purchase cost depreciation much less economic because the systemic hashrate is always increasing and (because) ASIC efficiency is always increasing[7]. The posited purchase of obsolete mining equipment[8] is incorrect because `MR = MC` so a combination of increased demand for obsolete mining raising its price and weighted profit at the margins increasing thus increasing the mining difficulty so that savings due to waste heat is offset. Closer to home, to make it profitable enough to be worthwhile (to justify the pita of jerry–rigging a space heater for equipment not designed for the purpose) requires running so many 10s or 100s of kWH of relatively much less efficient (i.e. obsolete) hardware generating more heat than can be typically utilized (unless infernos are in sufficient decentralized demand).


Proof-of-Work on CPUs Belies Economics of Specialization

The posited caveat[4] that mining on general use computers (as a refutation of the power-law distribution of resources) would be economically viable if ASICs are not more efficient than (H + E) / E (even factoring that E might be pyschologically 0 because it is obscured in monthly variability of the electric bill) falls away at least because of the transition to power efficient (battery powered or fanless) devices which don't consume enough electricity to provide enough security for a longest-chain-rule blockchain even if millions of said devices were mining[9]. Or more generally because the portion of the general use computers' cost which represents circuits applicable to proof-of-work computation is equivalently too small.


[4] https://blog.ethereum.org/2014/06/19/mining/
[5] http://www.allied-control.com/immersion-cooling
[6] http://www.allied-control.com/publications/Analysis_of_Large-Scale_Bitcoin_Mining_Operations.pdf#page=9
[7] https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/335107/i_am_thinking_of_using_a_bitcoin_miner_to_heat_my/
[8] https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=918758.msg10109255#msg10109255
    https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1527954.msg16816538#msg16816538
[9] https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1361602.msg15553037#msg15553037

I don't want to waste time analyzing Theymos's proposal very mathematically and exhaustively, because my intuitive understanding is it is very insecure.

Unfortunately he has probably incentivized someone to go hype an altcoin on this insecure concept, proclaiming that it was endorsed by Theymos.
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