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Author Topic: coinjedi / betsofbitco.in SCAMMERS: Declares "Push" on obvious win for BFL bet  (Read 13638 times)
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April 03, 2013, 04:57:11 AM
 #1

Bitcointalk user 'coinjedi' the admin of betsofbitco.in blatantly cheated the rightful winners of this bet which he somehow declares a "draw"

http://betsofbitco.in/item?id=701



Here is the thread discussing this bet.  As you can see it is overwhelmingly in favor of ruling correctly that BFL did not in fact ship.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=163261.0

If anyone has personal information on coinjedi please post it here or if you'd like PM it to me.

Username:  coinjedi
email: coinjedi@gmail.com
alt email: feedback@betsofbitco.in

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April 03, 2013, 04:59:36 AM
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I bet no on bitbet.us and bet yes previously on betsofbitco.in, so I have to say I can't really complain much about this.

But declaring it a draw the wrong thing to do.. This is a prototype.

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April 03, 2013, 05:10:27 AM
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+1

BFL did not ship product, they just took a photo of a semi-working prototype which is out of specs.

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April 03, 2013, 05:11:39 AM
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The community really needs to be warned against coinjedi and his phony escrow service.  Not only did he make an insane and obviously incorrect ruling but he provided no explanation.  Shouldn't an escrow service at least provide a summary of their judgement?

Am I right that hundreds of BTC were riding on this bet?  And that betsofbitco.in still went ahead and charged fees even after cheating the winners???

Coinjedi needs a scammer tag and betsofbitco.in should be avoided at all costs.

Luke Jr. was not only evasive in the thread linked, but he also went out of his way to deceive.  He also deserves a scammer tag IMO, but I guess that's a seperate matter.

I had no action on either side of this wager.
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April 03, 2013, 05:17:05 AM
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I think this accusation is too ridiculous to spend time typing up a defense (it's obviously bogus), but if any moderator is taking it seriously for any reason feel free to contact me.

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April 03, 2013, 05:20:09 AM
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I think this accusation is too ridiculous to spend time typing up a defense (it's obviously bogus), but if any moderator is taking it seriously for any reason feel free to contact me.
It's pretty obvious that coinjedi won't be declared a scammer, but it's a black mark for betsofbitco.in and you.

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April 03, 2013, 05:24:21 AM
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I think this accusation is too ridiculous to spend time typing up a defense (it's obviously bogus), but if any moderator is taking it seriously for any reason feel free to contact me.

I'll bet the users pile in here to +1 this by the dozens.  You think we are all crazy and only you are sane?

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April 03, 2013, 05:31:34 AM
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I agree, the decision was weird and not well reasoned. And still taking the fees after accepting bet with bad terms is not good.

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April 03, 2013, 05:49:44 AM
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I think this accusation is too ridiculous to spend time typing up a defense (it's obviously bogus), but if any moderator is taking it seriously for any reason feel free to contact me.

yeah, don't spend any time on the defense.  all these ppl from this thread:   https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=163261.0;all  are prolly crazy just like me:



Nothing was moved, nothing was shipped. picking one board on the test bench, taking a picture of it, and saying "that one belongs to some other guy, we shipped!" is retarded.

"Butterfly Labs will not ship ASIC-based Bitforce SC products before April 2013"

A prototype sitting on a bench at BFL does not qualify as "shipped", no matter how much you fondled it.


This is all we need to know. BFL has shipped nothing yet. No Easter Shipping Miracle was performed.

They have a working prototype that Luke-Jr has access to and is helping with software development.

Josh claiming on BFL chat last night that they shipped just seemed really disingenuous and slimy. Par for the course as far as Josh goes I suppose.



Grats and great job BFL!!

However for my 2 cents, the bet's outcome should be true.  "Shipped" I think is the keyword here.  I don't think anyone would agree that BFL has 'shipped' - sorry to those who might get mad at the outcome of this bet but hey, you can just mine back your losses right?  Tongue

Disclosure: I did not bet on this

BFL doesn't have a working device.


I guess you have two options.

1.  pay the obvious winners

2.  pay the losers or cancel the bet, thus destroying the credibility your business relies upon

What a dilemma.

(no, I don't have any stake in the outcome of this bet.  it does bother me to see people try and weasel out of debts though.)



Butterfly Labs will not ship ASIC-based Bitforce SC products before April 2013 - This is the title.  It is quite specific.  If bettors don't accept that this claim was the understanding of the bet, then those people are plainly trying to tell untruths.  Even comparisons from the representative of the company (BFL) was to how the shipments of Batch #1 of Avalon were handled.  By invoking that, you are implicitly implying that shipping the product to a customer is what the bet is about.   What more do you really need?  Any disagreement on these facts are just wrong.  I am sorry to say it but it is true.  

Am I wrong on this?

Isn't the intent more important than the technical wording?  Please think about the previous statement before just responding.  Didn't the people betting that this would not happen, go into it thinking that?  I can't really see how that was not the case.  This is my argument.  


Disclosure:
I did not bet on this claim



Ok, people know I am a BFL supporter and have a bet against Micon as to when they will ship, etc.  But I'll say that I can't see any way in which BFL shipped a device before April 1, or any way that this bets of bitcoin bet could conclude otherwise.

Even if you use the technical wording of the bet and do not include the text of the title as being part of the requirement (which I certainly would), some conditions of the bet were not met.

Now, where I disagree with Micon is that coinjedi is in the wrong here.  I think it is absolutely prudent and necessary to take time and gather all the facts before making a final decision involving tens of thousands of dollars (this is a several hundred BTC bet, is it not?).  So, I applaud coinjedi for not rushing to a decision in the event of a close call, which this certainly is.  On the surface, it seems obvious to most people what the outcome should be, but because there is disagreement, coinjedi is right to take his time in deciding the proper result of the bet.

If he somehow concludes that BFL DID ship a unit before April 1st, then and only then would I lose faith in betsofbitco.in.

I have a 50 coin bet w/SgtSpike, he is pro-BFL.  He is also a gentleman bettor.  This is obvious to us



There's nothing to debate about. You must consider all of the text of the contract. The title is part of the contract. You cannot ignore it. The title says "shipped", and BFL didn't "ship" anything. Case closed.


I can't believe this is actually being debated.

Unofficial BFL News ‏@BFL_News 2h
* Chips count per device may change, depending on results this week

Unofficial BFL News ‏@BFL_News 2h
* New boards testing this week.  (...)  I'd guess shipping next week.


Seems to me that it fails here: "shall post detailed and credible photos of the device on the forum, including photos of it operating, and report its hashrate. This customer cannot be a BFL employee."

There were NO PHOTOs of the device they are selling.  There was a photo of a test board.   I believe if you go to their website you can see the fancy boxes they are packing the guts in.  I do NOT see any photos of the thing that "luke jr" (no Josh Zerlan according to the photo info) took pictures of.   Can you send me to the place on the website where I can buy that "thing"?


"and report its hashrate."

Was the hashrate reported? Does single picture of setup with this info on screen count as report?

It's quite hard to say what are the exact terms and was the statement true even if conditions are barely met.

At the least community will learn to word these bets better.

vote: NOT SHIPPED


The credibility of the information provided is tainted. The decision should be pretty clear cut.

I don't have any stake in any of these bets, but am confused how the obvious decision hasn't been made yet.
BFL lost, and i suggest next time make the terms more clear to avoid this from happening again.

Ignoring the title, let's work with the conditionals for a moment and break them down:


• Before April 1st 2013, at least one BFL customer with a bitcointalk.org forum account established prior to the bet's opening date shall post detailed and credible photos of the device on the forum, including photos of it operating, and report its hashrate. This customer cannot be a BFL employee.

"at least one BFL customer" - Condition Met
"with a bitcointalk.org forum account established prior to the bet's opening date" - Condition Met
"shall post detailed and credible photos of the device on the forum" - Condition Not Met --- Did Luke take the pictures and post them or did Josh? To that end, which forum is this condition referring to? How much detail is "enough" detail? Does the "device" have to be of consumer quality [not a test board, but one that could be shipped to a customer]?
"including photos of it operating, and report its hashrate." - Condition Met
"This customer cannot be a BFL employee." - Condition Met



My vote is this is an engineering sample.  This is not "shipped" to customer.  "Shipped" indicates a full working unit in the customers hands at the customer premesis.  Clearly this is not.


"at least one BFL customer" - debatable as this occured at BFL's location, the device is not actually with the customer
"with a bitcointalk.org forum account established prior to the bet's opening date" - OK
"shall post detailed and credible photos of the device on the forum" - OK
"including photos of it operating, and report its hashrate." - OK
"This customer cannot be a BFL employee." - debatable at this point

As for 75% of advertised hashrate, the answer is NO.

"Advertised" was 60Ghash.  Just because they revised it to 30GH at the last second doesn't meet the definition when the bets were placed.  23GH is 76% of 30GH.

GRASPING.  AT.  STRAWS.


Not only did the ASIC not leave the BFL lab, so was never shipped anywhere

but also this..

Quote
This customer cannot be a BFL employee.

Luke Jr was flown in on BLFs dollar to code their software so is an employee!

https://forums.butterflylabs.com/blogs/luke-jr/97-preparing-my-trip-bfl.html

How many other "customers" where flown in at BFL's expense?

Pictures were not posted until April.  Bet outcome should be true.

Very disappointed to see this after BoB specially solicited feedback, and the feedback being pretty much overwhelmingly in support of the true outcome.

What, did it have to be unanimous?  What was the point?

Code:
One of your bets at Bets of Bitcoin has been decided as a draw and refunded. Details are below:
Statement: Butterfly Labs will not ship ASIC-based Bitforce SC products before April 2013
Link: http://betsofbitco.in/item?id=701
Your side: Agree
Your bet amount: 0.25

Bets of Bitcoin
http://betsofbitco.in
bye betsofbitco.in





It is very clear that the conditions are not met --

This bet concerns the 3 Butterfly Labs Bitforce SC products announced here:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=87934.msg966886#msg966886

That message refers to a press release here:
http://news.yahoo.com/butterfly-labs-announces-next-generation-asic-lineup-054626776.html

Containing:
"2)    BitForce SC Single: a standalone unit providing roughly 40 GH/s, priced at $1,299"

The second condition of the bet:
• The device must achieve at least 75% of its advertised hashrate.


40 * .75 = 30.  That rate was not met.


I'm so pissed at betsofbitco.in right now.


They owe me THOUSANDS of dollars from that bet.


BULLSHITBULLSHITBULLSHIT

bestofbitco.in, you are now on the same level as BFL

Scammer Tags!

Ohhh BFL, the ripples you create humor me.
Ohhh, Betsofbitco.in, how you have suprised me.
Thought the answer to this was an obvious one.


I'd refuse to use that service considering the shaky and dubious evidence to support that it was even SHIPPED! It is not in the consumers hand what gives. Obviously there is some conflict of interest here. Sad to see people WELCH on a bet like this and goes to the ethics of Betsofbitco.in., Luke and BFL. Sad indeed.







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April 03, 2013, 05:56:46 AM
 #10

I think this accusation is too ridiculous to spend time typing up a defense (it's obviously bogus), but if any moderator is taking it seriously for any reason feel free to contact me.

Says one of the three people involved int he fuckin scam. This thread shouldn't only be for coinjedi, luke-Jr and Inaba/BFL_Josh should be right there in the title with them.
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April 03, 2013, 06:36:36 AM
 #11

+1

Also +1 Luke-jr scammer tag

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April 03, 2013, 06:49:32 AM
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+1 scammer tag
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April 03, 2013, 07:28:32 AM
 #13

+1

Don't Hate, Donate:

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April 03, 2013, 08:02:17 AM
 #14

-1

Bitcoin - where calling a draw and refunding earns you a scammer tag.

As a side note, I can hardly believe that I'm agreeing with Luke.

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April 03, 2013, 08:29:32 AM
 #15

-1

Bitcoin - where calling a draw and refunding earns you a scammer tag.

As a side note, I can hardly believe that I'm agreeing with Luke.

hello BFL shill.

You offend rational thinkers if you believe calling a draw when one side obviously won is anything short of stealing.


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April 03, 2013, 08:42:46 AM
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+1 This bet should've been paid to the agree bettors. BFL did not ship anything.

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April 03, 2013, 08:44:20 AM
 #17

-1

Bitcoin - where calling a draw and refunding earns you a scammer tag.

As a side note, I can hardly believe that I'm agreeing with Luke.

hello BFL shill.

hi micon

You offend psychopath gamblers if you believe calling a draw when one side obviously won is anything short of stealing.

Someone's mad because BFL turned out not to be a scam.

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April 03, 2013, 09:23:15 AM
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rediculous this is a draw

IF we ignore the bold title (no, when I buy eggs, I expect eggs), then the post is FAR from credible. 

BFL did not ship, how is this not a trivial resolution?
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April 03, 2013, 09:26:51 AM
 #19

-1.

Call it a poor decision on BoB's part if you like. But unless you have some sort of proof of their collusion with Josh and Luke, it's not a scam. Nor is it stealing. Unless you are a serious gambling addict.

If I've said anything amusing and/or informative and you're feeling generous:
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April 03, 2013, 09:31:34 AM
 #20

-1.

Call it a poor decision on BoB's part if you like. But unless you have some sort of proof of their collusion with Josh and Luke, it's not a scam. Nor is it stealing. Unless you are a serious gambling addict.

Yep. BoB gets less money from a draw than a win or lose.

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