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Author Topic: wild and unsubstantiated speculation about BFL's power woes  (Read 6345 times)
Minor Miner
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April 04, 2013, 01:01:13 AM
 #21

I would really like someone to put up a bet on a date when they will have 5 mini rigs operating in paying customers hands in the USA (really want to see if any BFLers take the other side).   Mini Rig casings are all garbage at this point but if they do not figure this out and ship, they will basically be shipping fire starters and bitcoin will draw the wrath of the ignorant media when some idiot burns an apartment (or dorm) down "mining for millions".   I have ZERO faith they will send anything to UL which could have MO shut them down after they start shipping since most munis do not allow untested electrical devices in their municipalities for this very reason.

It would be a good bet to create, because nobody is going to be able to run a 1500GH/s (now 1250GH/s) Mini Rig SC in their home @ 8000w

120v x 20A USA You're kitchen might have a 2400w rated socket for your cooker, everywhere else will be 1800w.
230v x 13A UK might get up to 3000w max on the kitchen cooker socket. Grin

Many US homes have a 230v x 30A dryer plug.  I have similar plugs for servers though not the same physical configuration.   7200W derated to 80% gives you 5760.   That is about as high as you want to go and of course getting rid of that kind of heat is challenging. 

Ignoring your wiring problems you would have.   Look at the pretty box dimensions.   And look at the fans.   Why paint it black, this thing will be glowing red in a few hours.   It will set your wife's cat on fire.

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April 04, 2013, 01:10:52 AM
 #22

Hmmm... I have 230V @ 16A and 400V @ 16A which is enough for a big welder but could be insufficient for a mining rig. That sucks.

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April 04, 2013, 01:17:33 AM
 #23

Glowing red? That rig will be giving itself a rather realistic flame effect on the casing in just a few minutes with extra smoke fumes for a grande finale.

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April 04, 2013, 01:36:13 AM
 #24

 Mini Rig casings are all garbage at this point

no they aren't - they are the new jalapeno cases!  Kiss

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April 04, 2013, 01:37:08 AM
 #25

Order your 15 minute fireworks show now*T # + =


* Not an order, pre-order only
T Units expected to ship March 2013
# March means july
+ There are 30,000 orders before yours, don't expect aything before december.
= We've never made fireworks before, nobody here knows how to make them
yxt
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April 04, 2013, 01:43:46 AM
 #26

 Mini Rig casings are all garbage at this point

no they aren't - they are the new jalapeno cases!  Kiss


lol

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ChipGeek
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April 04, 2013, 02:08:25 AM
 #27

Disclaimer: I don't know anything that hasn't been posted here in the forum, and I have been too busy to read more than 5-10% of that, I have no inside info, this is just speculation based on past chip design experience, yadda yadda.

It sounds like BFL is having some difficulties with their chips (a) running at ~25% of rated speed and (b) consuming 4-9x more power than they planned.  These numbers are vague since the info in the postings I've come across has always been patchy and has been presented very poorly (they'll quote an actual hashrate but decline to say what device it came from, or show a photo of a kill-a-watt but decline to say exactly what's plugged into it, etc).  I would welcome a simple and straightforward posting by BFL saying "we have the chips running at X% of advertised speed and consuming Y J/GH".

They've also mentioned that the wafer-probing tests (which I assume ran only a tiny portion of one chip at a time due to the fact that unpackaged chips overheat when run at full speed) produced the power results they expected, but the packaged chips consume way too much power.

I'm going to make a wild guess here and speculate that they ran all their pre-production SPICE simulations using the default 25 degree C temperature.

This is a pretty common mistake.  It would also explain everything I've seen so far.

Circuits always simulate ridiculously well if you run SPICE at 25 degrees.  The problem is that any circuit doing substantial amounts of computation will generate enough heat to raise the local temperature to at least 100 degrees C.  This in turn reduces the power efficiency even further (circuits running hot run slower and burn more power), an effect that feeds on itself.  Even the best packaging and heatsinking still leaves 3-4 degrees C per watt, and often those figures neglect to include the thermal resistivity of the CMOS bulk (another few degrees C per watt).  Multiply all of that by a 10-20W chip and the junction temperature is going to be a lot closer to 100-110 degrees than 25 degrees in any sort of reasonable ambient temperature.

Repeated disclaimer: this is just a wild guess, I have almost zero information, I have been way too busy with other urgent crap to read most of the forum threads, etc, etc.

Similar to the OP, I have no inside information, only that which has been posted on the public forums.  I do have a few points of clarification - based on my limited understanding of BFL's situation.

1) None of the wafers have been wafer-probed and BFL does not have capability to do so.  I would hope and expect they will fix this in the future.  If the die do yield well (say > 95% good), then it is reasonable to skip wafer probe and do a "blind build".  This is what BFL gambled on.

2) Of the first 6 wafers, they choose to "burn" one by skipping the bumping process (because it was causing delays) and use wire bonding to a bare minimum number of the bump pads.  These test die could not be fully tested or run at full speed for the obvious reason that only a few of the power / ground pads were connected.  These die from wafer 1 had good power - at least within the expected range.  They did this while waiting for the other wafers to get bumped so they could verify functionality of the design.

3) Wafer 2 was bumped and packaged.  (Note that wafers 3 to 6 were bumped but NOT packaged at this time.  They should be packaged by now though.)  These are the chips that have been mounted to test boards and exhibit the high power levels. 

4) I have seen nothing posted about the current status of wafers 3 to 6.  It is POSSIBLE that BFL's power issues COULD be limited to wafer 2 and wafers 3 to 6 will have "good" power.  It is well know in the chip business that there can be (and often IS) a variation from wafer to wafer on parameters such as frequency and power.  Of course, the fab tries to minimize these variations, but they do occur.  Especially for the first wafers out. 

5) In addition, there is a variation of different die on the same wafer.  If BFL happened to pick poor die for their test boards, then other die from wafer 2 might be lower power.  However, I do not think this is likely in this instance.

6) BFL has said they will underclock devices to meet a reasonable power envelope and then ship more units to each customer so that they will still receive the GH/s that they ordered.  So if the SC Singles need to run at half speed (30GH/s) to not overload the power circuitry, then a customer that ordered one will actually receive two.  I do not expect there to be a fire problem.

7) BFL has said they are re-designing the boards to improve the power situation.  To me this is unclear what they are doing.  I think Josh said something about using 2 regulators instead of 1 - but I could have that wrong.

The above is true to the best of my understanding but of course could be partly (or completely) wrong since I can only interpret what I've seen on the forums.

Additional disclaimer: As stated earlier on this forum, I have ordered an SC Single.  Yes, I am biased but I try to minimize that bias in all my posts and state as much factual information as possible and remove my opinion from it.

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April 04, 2013, 02:15:51 AM
 #28

It is pretty obvious now that they don't know what they are doing...  like the first season of Gold Rush

BFL probably filmed the past 10 months and will be on the next season of that show

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April 04, 2013, 02:19:39 AM
 #29

It is pretty obvious now that they don't know what they are doing...  like the first season of Gold Rush

BFL probably filmed the past 10 months and will be on the next season of that show

It won't work unless there's an antagonist in each episode. Only if I had a clue as to whom that would be. Perhaps, if I had a quarter I could hunt one. One with a video camera that plays poker. But what are the odds of such an individual existing? I guess I could dream.
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April 04, 2013, 03:06:34 AM
 #30

How BFL promised to begin shipping in late October or early November 2012 is beyond comprehension.  All the promises made to date regarding power use and performance have been based on simulations that now have proved to be wildly optimistic. 

I wonder how they intend to ship Jalapeno products.  An extra power supply will be required, along with a case redesign and fans.  They might as well refund customer orders now to avoid the hassle and months of extra delays.
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April 04, 2013, 03:08:33 AM
 #31

They had to make wild promises in order to get pre-orders to fund the actual development.
Nobody would pre-order vaporware.

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April 04, 2013, 03:35:47 AM
 #32

My guess is they had to keep making shipping promises they knew they couldn't keep so they could keep getting "preorder" money so they would have cash to fulfill the return requests. Even if they get an ASIC to work, I would be shocked if they have enough capital to fulfill all of the current orders.
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April 04, 2013, 03:37:42 AM
 #33

They had to make wild promises in order to get pre-orders to fund the actual development.
Nobody would pre-order vaporware.

Don't forget that they also needed to make wild promises to scare away the still budding at the time FPGA market and other potential ASIC suppliers.

If people had known mid last year that BFL would deliver in 12 months and not 3, I have no doubt there would currently be a healthy FPGA market out there.  

And we'll never know how many potential legit ASIC suppliers were scared away by BFL's promise, leaving only the failed cowboys and Avalon behind.  But I would bet that number is greater than zero.

I don't know if it's possible to quantify the damage BFL have done to the Bitcoin mining environment, but I have no doubt it's huge.

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April 04, 2013, 03:38:19 AM
 #34

Minor nitpick:

120v x 20A USA You're kitchen might have a 2400w rated socket for your cooker, everywhere else will be 1800w.

Typical circuit spec for a residential electric stove is 240V @ 50A.  That works out to 12 kW.

(Not that you'd rip out the stove and plug in a mini-rig...what are you going to cook on? A campstove?  Grin )

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April 04, 2013, 03:40:42 AM
 #35

Minor nitpick:

120v x 20A USA You're kitchen might have a 2400w rated socket for your cooker, everywhere else will be 1800w.

Typical circuit spec for a residential electric stove is 240V @ 50A.  That works out to 12 kW.

(Not that you'd rip out the stove and plug in a mini-rig...what are you going to cook on? A campstove?  Grin )

If it netted me $10k a day I'd dynamite my stove out of the way for access to that circuit Wink
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April 04, 2013, 03:51:21 AM
 #36

It is pretty obvious now that they don't know what they are doing...  like the first season of Gold Rush

BFL probably filmed the past 10 months and will be on the next season of that show

at least on gold rush they had god on their side.

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April 04, 2013, 04:56:48 AM
 #37

Minor nitpick:

120v x 20A USA You're kitchen might have a 2400w rated socket for your cooker, everywhere else will be 1800w.

Typical circuit spec for a residential electric stove is 240V @ 50A.  That works out to 12 kW.

(Not that you'd rip out the stove and plug in a mini-rig...what are you going to cook on? A campstove?  Grin )

Um, sounds like you can just use the mini-rig.
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April 04, 2013, 05:08:00 AM
 #38

Hmmm.  Josh's most recent comments in shoutbox imply that the problem could be with the chips.

All I can say is that this is Bitcoin. I don't believe it until I see six confirmations.
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April 04, 2013, 05:14:44 AM
 #39

That's surprising. Roll Eyes

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April 04, 2013, 05:15:54 AM
 #40

Hmmm.  Josh's most recent comments in shoutbox imply that the problem could be with the chips.

What a surprise.
Who could ever expect...

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