PPCoin is now third only to Litecoin and Bitcoin for market cap!

[mr_random]

PPCoin overtakes Namecoin and moves up to third on the market capitalisation list (see it ranked third on dustcoin.com):



PPCoin is proving to be a real contender with it's innovative ideas and just as importantly, super active developer Sunny! Things will only go up from here when it goes on btc-e.com soon!

All the haters gonna hate now

[1714867688]

1714867688

[tacotime]

Better spend it before it generates worthless unspendable stake coins.    I have a big cache of it right now, still waiting to see how high it goes before I dump it.

[Invest0r]

Awesome!

For the people interested in PPCoin see https://vircurex.com/welcome/index?referral_id=540-5816

[qxzn]

Better spend it before it generates worthless unspendable stake coins.    I have a big cache of it right now, still waiting to see how high it goes before I dump it.

Coins generated from stake are unspendable?

[tacotime]

Better spend it before it generates worthless unspendable stake coins.    I have a big cache of it right now, still waiting to see how high it goes before I dump it.

Coins generated from stake are unspendable?

Transaction fees are 0.01 per kb, but in many cases (small sums of PPC) the stake generated per block is many magnitudes less than this quantity.  These micro quantities of PPC pile up over time, bloating your input transactions when you try to spend them and resulting in more fees to spend the inputs than the inputs are collectively worth.

The 0.8% per year yielded by stake only benefits people holding huge amounts of PPC, and even then it only provides a mild incentive to generate stake blocks.

[qxzn]

Better spend it before it generates worthless unspendable stake coins.    I have a big cache of it right now, still waiting to see how high it goes before I dump it.

Coins generated from stake are unspendable?

Transaction fees are 0.01 per kb, but in many cases (small sums of PPC) the stake generated per block is many magnitudes less than this quantity.  These micro quantities of PPC pile up over time, bloating your input transactions when you try to spend them and resulting in more fees to spend the inputs than the inputs are collectively worth.

Hmm.. that sounds like a problem. What does Sunny say about this?

[tacotime]

That it's not a problem, so far.

[annette786]

Better spend it before it generates worthless unspendable stake coins.    I have a big cache of it right now, still waiting to see how high it goes before I dump it.

Coins generated from stake are unspendable?

Transaction fees are 0.01 per kb, but in many cases (small sums of PPC) the stake generated per block is many magnitudes less than this quantity.  These micro quantities of PPC pile up over time, bloating your input transactions when you try to spend them and resulting in more fees to spend the inputs than the inputs are collectively worth.

So, if your amount of stake coins is too small, you get dust?  What amount is too small? Incorrect.

[Sunny King]

Transaction fees are 0.01 per kb, but in many cases (small sums of PPC) the stake generated per block is many magnitudes less than this quantity.  These micro quantities of PPC pile up over time, bloating your input transactions when you try to spend them and resulting in more fees to spend the inputs than the inputs are collectively worth.

The 0.8% per year yielded by stake only benefits people holding huge amounts of PPC, and even then it only provides a mild incentive to generate stake blocks.

This is a misunderstanding. The stake reward does not have its separate output. It's added to the original amount.

[tacotime]

This is a misunderstanding. The stake reward does not have its separate output. It's added to the original amount.

Ah, I see.  This was one of my problems with the chain.  So you just modify the amount at the corresponding address to add the new value in?  It was confusing because the wallet reports "+0.00002382012" and I assumed that it was an actual transaction.

If you generate stake coins from a sum of multiple input addresses, are the stake coins generated added amongst all of them?

[Sunny King]

Ah, I see.  This was one of my problems with the chain.  So you just modify the amount at the corresponding address to add the new value in?

If you generate stake coins from a sum of multiple input addresses, are the stake coins generated amongst all of them?

It's in the coinstake transaction, output value > input value, but the reward does not have its own output so there is no dust involved.

[sublime5447]

Tacotime should I start using and promoting PPcoin? Is it a good coin?

[mr_random]

This is a misunderstanding. The stake reward does not have its separate output. It's added to the original amount.

Ah, I see.  This was one of my problems with the chain.  So you just modify the amount at the corresponding address to add the new value in?  It was confusing because the wallet reports "+0.00002382012" and I assumed that it was an actual transaction.

If you generate stake coins from a sum of multiple input addresses, are the stake coins generated added amongst all of them?

So you barge in on the thread first reply running down PPCoin when in fact there is not a problem?  

[tacotime]

Tacotime should I start using and promoting PPcoin? Is it a good coin?

Well, I'm learning new things about it every day apparently.  I still think 0.8% per annum is too small an incentive for stake miners, but yes, I bought some because I predicted this meteoric rise in value would follow LTC when it started going up because it was an interesting different approach to cryptocurrency.

Sunny King, while you're here, please explain to me the rate of stake block generation and what the target is (what the target rate of number of stake blocks is per day).  I'm having trouble finding it in your PDF.

[tacotime]

So you barge in on the thread running down PPCoin when in fact there is not a problem? 

It was a misunderstanding, like the difficulty retarget.

[Sunny King]

Sunny King, while you're here, please explain to me the rate of stake block generation and what the target is (what the target rate of number of stake blocks is per day).  I'm having trouble finding it in your PDF.

10 minute target for proof-of-stake blocks.

[tacotime]

Okay, so stake blocks should be generated every 10 minutes across the entire network.  So, given a hypothetical userbase of 10k users all with mature coins, all competing for stake blocks, how is it decided who is allowed to mint a stake block in each 10 minute window?

[Mooshire]

I have a minute amount of PPCoins (16), but just looked at vircurex, price just dropped down a lot.

[Sunny King]

Okay, so stake blocks should be generated every 10 minutes across the entire network.  So, given a hypothetical userbase of 10k users all with mature coins, all competing for stake blocks, how is it decided who is allowed to mint a stake block in each 10 minute window?

It's described in design paper.
http://ppcoin.org/

[tacotime]

I assume you are referring to

The hash target that stake kernel must meet is a target per unit coin age (coin-day)
consumed in the kernel (in contrast to Bitcoin’s proof-of-work target which is a fixed
target value applying to every node). Thus the more coin age consumed in the kernel, the
easier meeting the hash target protocol. For example, if Bob has a wallet-output which
accumulated 100 coin-years and expects it to generate a kernel in 2 days, then Alice can
roughly expect her 200 coin-year wallet-output to generate a kernel in 1 day.
In our design both proof-of-work hash target and proof-of-stake hash target are adjusted
continuously rather than Bitcoin’s two-week adjustment interval, to avoid sudden jump in
network generation rate.

?

So, after a certain point, only people with older coins or with vast quantities of coins (producing greater coin age more quickly) will be able to mint stake blocks?

[tacotime]

Still trying to wrap my head around this;

You have 10,000 people attempting to mine stake blocks.  A has 30,000 coin years, and B has 10,000 coin years, and the rest of the network have less than 10,000 coin years.

B mints a stake block and the rest of the network mints stake blocks on top of B.

Can A fork the chain by declaring a chain in which he mints a stake block in place of B's block?  I would guess you made that forbidden by timestamp, but if A decides he doesn't like a transaction in block B, what's to stop A from announcing a new block and in effect destroying that transaction before the next person adds a block?  Is there anything in place to stop malicious stake mining like that, or is that the "51%" stake attack?

51% stake attack doesn't seem to require 51% of the coins either, since 51% would be based upon the assumption that everyone in the network is holding coins to mine stake blocks.  However, if most coins are being used for actual transactions, the required amount of stake to fork the network is actually only a fraction of 51%.

A problem also may arise when you have 10,000 people all making hundreds of possibly valid chains at the same.  If all these 10,000 people are announcing valid stake blocks at the same time, how do you avoid network congestion because the users are all required to figure out what the most valid chain is (chain with the most coinstakeage)?  Won't you generate hundreds or thousands of orphan chains?

[mr_random]

Still trying to wrap my head around this;

You have 10,000 people attempting to mine stake blocks.  A has 30,000 coin years, and B has 10,000 coin years, and the rest of the network have less than 10,000 coin years.

B mints a stake block and the rest of the network mints stake blocks on top of B.

Can A fork the chain by declaring a chain in which he mints a stake block in place of B's block?  I would guess you made that forbidden by timestamp, but if A decides he doesn't like a transaction in block B, what's to stop A from announcing a new block and in effect destroying that transaction before the next person adds a block?  Is there anything in place to stop malicious stake mining like that, or is that the "51%" stake attack?

51% stake attack doesn't seem to require 51% of the coins either, since 51% would be based upon the assumption that everyone in the network is holding coins to mine stake blocks.  However, if most coins are being used for actual transactions, the required amount of stake to fork the network is actually only a fraction of 51%.

A problem also may arise when you have 10,000 people all making hundreds of possibly valid chains at the same.  If all these 10,000 people are announcing valid stake blocks at the same time, how do you avoid network congestion because the users are all required to figure out what the most valid chain is (chain with the most coinstakeage)?  Won't you generate hundreds or thousands of orphan chains?

Bear in mind Sunny doesn't get paid money to develop PPCoin he does it all in his spare part time. Just saying this because you are asking Sunny a lot of technical questions all over the forum which I am sure is time consuming for him and he is probably too polite to say this (excuse me Sunny if I mis-speak here)

[tacotime]

If Sunny can answer them well, I'll buy more PPC.

This forum is public material, and if Sunny answers these questions people will be able to google them later and find the answer.  I'm just trying to further my understanding of the coin, rather than placing my money in it before understanding it.  And of course, Sunny need not answer anything if he doesn't want to; someone else who has gone through the code is welcome to.

For instance, I can ask any number of technical questions in the bitcoin dev board and have them answered within a few hours because the number of persons understanding the protocol is vast and the number of people involved in development great.  However, the same can not be said for PPC as Sunny is largely the only dev.

If the problems above are real theoretical problems with the chain, however, they represent issues that the userbase should be aware of.

[samson]

Better spend it before it generates worthless unspendable stake coins.    I have a big cache of it right now, still waiting to see how high it goes before I dump it.

Dumping is the idiots way of selling

[smoothie]

Even though I know this is not going to be true. I wish you all the ability to profit from your trading with PPC.

I will not touch it. Happy trading!

[chriswen]

I assume you are referring to

The hash target that stake kernel must meet is a target per unit coin age (coin-day)
consumed in the kernel (in contrast to Bitcoin’s proof-of-work target which is a fixed
target value applying to every node). Thus the more coin age consumed in the kernel, the
easier meeting the hash target protocol. For example, if Bob has a wallet-output which
accumulated 100 coin-years and expects it to generate a kernel in 2 days, then Alice can
roughly expect her 200 coin-year wallet-output to generate a kernel in 1 day.
In our design both proof-of-work hash target and proof-of-stake hash target are adjusted
continuously rather than Bitcoin’s two-week adjustment interval, to avoid sudden jump in
network generation rate.

?

So, after a certain point, only people with older coins or with vast quantities of coins (producing greater coin age more quickly) will be able to mint stake blocks?

After 90 days coin age doesn't matter for PoS shares.  So you don't get a better advantage for mining after 90 days.  But you do get higher PoS reward.  But first you have mine the PoS block.  I have 5.9 from 8/28/12.  But, I just launched my client again a few days ago.  Now difficulty is high and its only 90 days.  So itll take a long time for me to mine a stake block.

[sublime5447]

I would like some of these coins I am going to set up a miner tomorrow and hope to dedicate it to this coin. This was the same as the idea I had for a coin so I would like to support it. If any of you guys mine them and would  be willing to sell for PP I would be interested in buying.