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Author Topic: Are provably fair gambling sites really provable?  (Read 1302 times)
ultrloa
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May 26, 2017, 06:44:57 AM
 #41

If they show the hashed seed before you bet, and the process using the server seed (provided afterward) and your client seed results in the output along with their server seed hashing into the hashed seed then it's perfectly verifiable.

Suppose my server seed is X and the result of it and your client seed would be tails (in a head/tails game).

I then hash the seed with SHA-256 and show it to you publicly. After you bet I reveal the server seed and boom: you can verify everything since I can't lie about the hash.



Please correct me if I have made an error in any way.

You are correct, but my point is that: is the "hashed seed" they show you, really the seed used to run the game?

for example they can just generate a random hash seed (asdbfj891y23basd) and display it on their website but then actually, their game will use a different hash seed (138sdf71982789zcxz). then when you lose, they will of course show you the server seed which solves your seed. but in reality it is totally different.
The way I see it, the seed and hash they provide might be legit, but what I feel is a source for worry is that of some dice sites having to ask players to first click some tabs to be able to see the hash. That may well be a knock on the door to alert the occupant to tidy things up before letting the one at the door in and all the while he stays, every thing would be made to look straight. I think having the hash to stream along as the game is played, should be a more convincing way a site should show they are truly provably fair since their code is not open source.

This is the reason why people need to learn how provably fair works because many have no idea how it works exactly and always assume a casino can cheat but they don't understand that the rolls are already determined before the bet is taken place.

I don't think any casino would do what he suggested, showing one seed and using another because eventually someone would of caught on and complained, they don't know whether who or not actually verifies the seeds.

Correct! Since other people assume that good looking site are pretty much fair but if they look on the website seed if devs would share it you can actually see how was te state of their site will be.

But their are so many scam casino has been busted here since there are so many knowledgable gamblers knows on how provably fair system works.

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May 28, 2017, 12:07:34 AM
 #42

If they show the hashed seed before you bet, and the process using the server seed (provided afterward) and your client seed results in the output along with their server seed hashing into the hashed seed then it's perfectly verifiable.

Suppose my server seed is X and the result of it and your client seed would be tails (in a head/tails game).

I then hash the seed with SHA-256 and show it to you publicly. After you bet I reveal the server seed and boom: you can verify everything since I can't lie about the hash.



Please correct me if I have made an error in any way.

You are correct, but my point is that: is the "hashed seed" they show you, really the seed used to run the game?

for example they can just generate a random hash seed (asdbfj891y23basd) and display it on their website but then actually, their game will use a different hash seed (138sdf71982789zcxz). then when you lose, they will of course show you the server seed which solves your seed. but in reality it is totally different.
The way I see it, the seed and hash they provide might be legit, but what I feel is a source for worry is that of some dice sites having to ask players to first click some tabs to be able to see the hash. That may well be a knock on the door to alert the occupant to tidy things up before letting the one at the door in and all the while he stays, every thing would be made to look straight. I think having the hash to stream along as the game is played, should be a more convincing way a site should show they are truly provably fair since their code is not open source.

This is the reason why people need to learn how provably fair works because many have no idea how it works exactly and always assume a casino can cheat but they don't understand that the rolls are already determined before the bet is taken place.

I don't think any casino would do what he suggested, showing one seed and using another because eventually someone would of caught on and complained, they don't know whether who or not actually verifies the seeds.

Correct! Since other people assume that good looking site are pretty much fair but if they look on the website seed if devs would share it you can actually see how was te state of their site will be.

But their are so many scam casino has been busted here since there are so many knowledgable gamblers knows on how provably fair system works.

Yes in general if you gamble only on the reputable bitcoin sites listed in the various threads on bitcointalk you are usually safe. Because if one user gets scammed, he usually is the first to open a complaint on the forum and others will investigate the issue and the site might lose gamblers.

However the problem is most people don't use bitcointalk. One reason is that its only English based and there are hundreds of languages around the world. Another reason is that its too much reading. So most people just google "bitcoin gambling sites" and go to those top 10 lists with affiliate links and gamble there. However those casinos aren't properly vetted and might be scams like they were in the past.

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May 28, 2017, 12:31:11 AM
 #43

Yes in general if you gamble only on the reputable bitcoin sites listed in the various threads on bitcointalk you are usually safe. Because if one user gets scammed, he usually is the first to open a complaint on the forum and others will investigate the issue and the site might lose gamblers.

However the problem is most people don't use bitcointalk. One reason is that its only English based and there are hundreds of languages around the world. Another reason is that its too much reading. So most people just google "bitcoin gambling sites" and go to those top 10 lists with affiliate links and gamble there. However those casinos aren't properly vetted and might be scams like they were in the past.
There are some other problems:

- Most BitcoinTalk users do not check the Scam Accusations section.

- There are hundrets of threads in the Scam Accusation section and most players are not willing to read them all

- Even if a scam accusation is posted directly in the gambling site thread, a lot of potential customers will not read it!

Example: BITSPORT.BET SCAM STOLE 7 BITCOINS. He warned in their thread directly and now take a look how many bettors wait for their withdrawals! Roll Eyes


MegaDice scam 500+ Bitcoins defrauded and disappeared!
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May 28, 2017, 02:00:30 AM
 #44

If they show the hashed seed before you bet, and the process using the server seed (provided afterward) and your client seed results in the output along with their server seed hashing into the hashed seed then it's perfectly verifiable.

Suppose my server seed is X and the result of it and your client seed would be tails (in a head/tails game).

I then hash the seed with SHA-256 and show it to you publicly. After you bet I reveal the server seed and boom: you can verify everything since I can't lie about the hash.



Please correct me if I have made an error in any way.

You are correct, but my point is that: is the "hashed seed" they show you, really the seed used to run the game?

for example they can just generate a random hash seed (asdbfj891y23basd) and display it on their website but then actually, their game will use a different hash seed (138sdf71982789zcxz). then when you lose, they will of course show you the server seed which solves your seed. but in reality it is totally different.
The way I see it, the seed and hash they provide might be legit, but what I feel is a source for worry is that of some dice sites having to ask players to first click some tabs to be able to see the hash. That may well be a knock on the door to alert the occupant to tidy things up before letting the one at the door in and all the while he stays, every thing would be made to look straight. I think having the hash to stream along as the game is played, should be a more convincing way a site should show they are truly provably fair since their code is not open source.

This is the reason why people need to learn how provably fair works because many have no idea how it works exactly and always assume a casino can cheat but they don't understand that the rolls are already determined before the bet is taken place.

I don't think any casino would do what he suggested, showing one seed and using another because eventually someone would of caught on and complained, they don't know whether who or not actually verifies the seeds.

Correct! Since other people assume that good looking site are pretty much fair but if they look on the website seed if devs would share it you can actually see how was te state of their site will be.

But their are so many scam casino has been busted here since there are so many knowledgable gamblers knows on how provably fair system works.

That's the reason I usually don't deposit my money in any new gambling sites. Better only gamble on reputed site which already many experts verified their bets and proven safe to bet. In gambling any way we need only luck to win apart from that if casinos cheat then you will never see any winnings in gambling.

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May 28, 2017, 09:40:08 AM
 #45

That's the reason I usually don't deposit my money in any new gambling sites. Better only gamble on reputed site which already many experts verified their bets and proven safe to bet. In gambling any way we need only luck to win apart from that if casinos cheat then you will never see any winnings in gambling.

But how can you know if their site is reputable or not if you never deposit? You should at least try and play there to make sure that they are really reputable or not. Some people try to bring X site down by doing this kind of thing though. So we can't believe on some reviews too sometimes

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milewilda
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May 28, 2017, 09:51:59 AM
 #46

That's the reason I usually don't deposit my money in any new gambling sites. Better only gamble on reputed site which already many experts verified their bets and proven safe to bet. In gambling any way we need only luck to win apart from that if casinos cheat then you will never see any winnings in gambling.

But how can you know if their site is reputable or not if you never deposit? You should at least try and play there to make sure that they are really reputable or not. Some people try to bring X site down by doing this kind of thing though. So we can't believe on some reviews too sometimes
There are really some reviews that people do only rely on others opinions which means its not accurate on rating a particular website directly without any valid proofs. Some reviews are just based on their own view and opinion or add up on others comment,just like that. Trying out is good but just risk only a small amount so that you wont regret if you do experience problems ahead.

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May 28, 2017, 09:56:19 AM
 #47

At some moment of me playing gambling I have also asked myself about that.
Is it really that provable. Are they really obeying that kind of rule.
I dont much about how they are programming this kinds of service but still when I play I always think like there is mechanism to when it will give wins or losses.
Maybe I am just paranoid.

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May 28, 2017, 10:43:55 AM
 #48

its hard for me as well as to how some of these sites would not be able to fake and cheat easily as a good chunk do not know how to check and all the details behind doing so.

Im looking to do my own little small betting over outcomes on this we both know would be fair.
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May 28, 2017, 04:46:38 PM
 #49

That's the reason I usually don't deposit my money in any new gambling sites. Better only gamble on reputed site which already many experts verified their bets and proven safe to bet. In gambling any way we need only luck to win apart from that if casinos cheat then you will never see any winnings in gambling.

But how can you know if their site is reputable or not if you never deposit? You should at least try and play there to make sure that they are really reputable or not. Some people try to bring X site down by doing this kind of thing though. So we can't believe on some reviews too sometimes
There are really some reviews that people do only rely on others opinions which means its not accurate on rating a particular website directly without any valid proofs. Some reviews are just based on their own view and opinion or add up on others comment,just like that. Trying out is good but just risk only a small amount so that you wont regret if you do experience problems ahead.

I prefer to check about the casino legitimacy here on BitcoinTalk Forum, in the official threads of the casinos. If there are good reviews here, they are legit for me. But it doesn't mean we will make profit, it doesn't decrease the risk to lose money. Casinos will still make profit on long term and most gamblers will still lose their money...

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May 28, 2017, 09:04:45 PM
 #50

At some moment of me playing gambling I have also asked myself about that.
Is it really that provable. Are they really obeying that kind of rule.
Do me a favor. Pick one number between 1 - 100000. Here is sha 256 hash for it: ceee05e41bad07a1c8935c26ae7cbe68f5de1e8ef529140f3e55347d2bdaedc6
If you win maybe i will send you that amount of satoshi. If you lose than you send me 1000 satoshi - it's pretty much how gambling and provably system works.
I dont much about how they are programming this kinds of service but still when I play I always think like there is mechanism to when it will give wins or losses.
You are right, there is mechanism - it's called house edge. It means that you can win but you probably won't because house has advantage over you.
Maybe I am just paranoid.
Maybe you are  Grin

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May 28, 2017, 10:59:07 PM
 #51

That's the reason I usually don't deposit my money in any new gambling sites. Better only gamble on reputed site which already many experts verified their bets and proven safe to bet. In gambling any way we need only luck to win apart from that if casinos cheat then you will never see any winnings in gambling.

But how can you know if their site is reputable or not if you never deposit? You should at least try and play there to make sure that they are really reputable or not. Some people try to bring X site down by doing this kind of thing though. So we can't believe on some reviews too sometimes
There are really some reviews that people do only rely on others opinions which means its not accurate on rating a particular website directly without any valid proofs. Some reviews are just based on their own view and opinion or add up on others comment,just like that. Trying out is good but just risk only a small amount so that you wont regret if you do experience problems ahead.

I prefer to check about the casino legitimacy here on BitcoinTalk Forum, in the official threads of the casinos. If there are good reviews here, they are legit for me. But it doesn't mean we will make profit, it doesn't decrease the risk to lose money. Casinos will still make profit on long term and most gamblers will still lose their money...

Yes but that's because the casino has a slight house edge against you. If you only make a few rolls then the house edge is not really going to affect you. But the reason why people end up losing BTC is because instead of making 0.10 BTC bets on dice they make 0.00001000 Sats bets on dice like 100,000 rolls and end up losing slowly.

They don't realize that the more you bet, the house you have of going bust.

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Today at 05:39:34 AM
 #52

That's the reason I usually don't deposit my money in any new gambling sites. Better only gamble on reputed site which already many experts verified their bets and proven safe to bet. In gambling any way we need only luck to win apart from that if casinos cheat then you will never see any winnings in gambling.

But how can you know if their site is reputable or not if you never deposit? You should at least try and play there to make sure that they are really reputable or not. Some people try to bring X site down by doing this kind of thing though. So we can't believe on some reviews too sometimes
There are really some reviews that people do only rely on others opinions which means its not accurate on rating a particular website directly without any valid proofs. Some reviews are just based on their own view and opinion or add up on others comment,just like that. Trying out is good but just risk only a small amount so that you wont regret if you do experience problems ahead.

I prefer to check about the casino legitimacy here on BitcoinTalk Forum, in the official threads of the casinos. If there are good reviews here, they are legit for me. But it doesn't mean we will make profit, it doesn't decrease the risk to lose money. Casinos will still make profit on long term and most gamblers will still lose their money...

Winning money from gambling sites is depends on our luck as long as we play on a trusted probably fair sites. But if you choose to play on not probably fair sites then winning chances are nill. So I always only deposit money in good trusted and old sites to play and never keep my coins in any of the gambling sites. Before I close the gambling site will withdraw my money because anything can happen with these casinos.

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Today at 06:42:27 AM
 #53

That's the reason I usually don't deposit my money in any new gambling sites. Better only gamble on reputed site which already many experts verified their bets and proven safe to bet. In gambling any way we need only luck to win apart from that if casinos cheat then you will never see any winnings in gambling.

But how can you know if their site is reputable or not if you never deposit? You should at least try and play there to make sure that they are really reputable or not. Some people try to bring X site down by doing this kind of thing though. So we can't believe on some reviews too sometimes
There are really some reviews that people do only rely on others opinions which means its not accurate on rating a particular website directly without any valid proofs. Some reviews are just based on their own view and opinion or add up on others comment,just like that. Trying out is good but just risk only a small amount so that you wont regret if you do experience problems ahead.

I prefer to check about the casino legitimacy here on BitcoinTalk Forum, in the official threads of the casinos. If there are good reviews here, they are legit for me. But it doesn't mean we will make profit, it doesn't decrease the risk to lose money. Casinos will still make profit on long term and most gamblers will still lose their money...

Winning money from gambling sites is depends on our luck as long as we play on a trusted probably fair sites. But if you choose to play on not probably fair sites then winning chances are nill. So I always only deposit money in good trusted and old sites to play and never keep my coins in any of the gambling sites. Before I close the gambling site will withdraw my money because anything can happen with these casinos.

Well playing at unprovably fair site is actually can be called suicide since how come they win if the system of the site make them lose always and I don't think also that their are more people playing at that since the game whos not been fair is been busted by their seed and by those people who got more knowledge on how this things work, So as you said might better truly if we just play on those well known site so if we encounter such little error then we can still breath closely since we know that they are fair and trusted.

.
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