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Author Topic: Isn't bitcoin too SLOW to be called "instantaneous"?  (Read 3614 times)
kensai187
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November 27, 2013, 10:11:25 PM
 #61

I would agree, still the advantages outweight the disadvantages imo!
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November 27, 2013, 10:50:18 PM
 #62

Well technically it should be instantaneous, since you can see the transaction almost the second its sent, but you have to wait for it to confirm. Its kind of like my bank. When someone sends money its almost instant, but it stays in a pending state for a while.

FenixRD
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November 28, 2013, 12:43:22 AM
 #63

This is why bitcoin should be used for online shopping but supermarket shopping should fall to an alt coin like Zetacoin

zetacoin really is lightning fast... confirmations in seconds

Following up on my other reply as well: If the "Zetacoin" thread is any indication of real-world averages, mining "Zetacoin" results in at least 99% orphaned blocks, which is to be expected for such an idiotic idea as a 30-second interval (which isn't "seconds" anyway). That's how it works. The more you decrease that interval, the more you take from the Bitcoin, "one CPU one vote" concept, and start bottlenecking it with a huge caveat of, "if your internet connection is stable and fast, and if the majority of the network's connections are stable and fast" which makes it not nearly so useful. Never mind that with ASICs already in existence, they can easily attack or just take over the network at whim, since it's a SHA256 coin. Basically, this is one of the worst alt-coin implementations I've ever seen.

Uberlurker. Been here since the Finney transaction. Please consider this before replying; there is a good chance I've heard it before.

-Citizenfive
CathalG
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November 28, 2013, 12:51:23 PM
 #64

This is why bitcoin should be used for online shopping but supermarket shopping should fall to an alt coin like Zetacoin

zetacoin really is lightning fast... confirmations in seconds

Following up on my other reply as well: If the "Zetacoin" thread is any indication of real-world averages, mining "Zetacoin" results in at least 99% orphaned blocks, which is to be expected for such an idiotic idea as a 30-second interval (which isn't "seconds" anyway). That's how it works. The more you decrease that interval, the more you take from the Bitcoin, "one CPU one vote" concept, and start bottlenecking it with a huge caveat of, "if your internet connection is stable and fast, and if the majority of the network's connections are stable and fast" which makes it not nearly so useful. Never mind that with ASICs already in existence, they can easily attack or just take over the network at whim, since it's a SHA256 coin. Basically, this is one of the worst alt-coin implementations I've ever seen.

i have seen people talking about lots of orphaned blocks but this is not something I have come across when mining myself.  What alt coin would you recommend?
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November 28, 2013, 02:05:19 PM
 #65

This is why bitcoin should be used for online shopping but supermarket shopping should fall to an alt coin like Zetacoin

zetacoin really is lightning fast... confirmations in seconds

Following up on my other reply as well: If the "Zetacoin" thread is any indication of real-world averages, mining "Zetacoin" results in at least 99% orphaned blocks, which is to be expected for such an idiotic idea as a 30-second interval (which isn't "seconds" anyway). That's how it works. The more you decrease that interval, the more you take from the Bitcoin, "one CPU one vote" concept, and start bottlenecking it with a huge caveat of, "if your internet connection is stable and fast, and if the majority of the network's connections are stable and fast" which makes it not nearly so useful. Never mind that with ASICs already in existence, they can easily attack or just take over the network at whim, since it's a SHA256 coin. Basically, this is one of the worst alt-coin implementations I've ever seen.

i have seen people talking about lots of orphaned blocks but this is not something I have come across when mining myself.  What alt coin would you recommend?

Either none, or maybe LTC and/or PPC. A little diversification is good and was always inevitable.

PPC has some unique non-stupid features, notably Proof-of-Stake, which is interesting. It is "inflationary" which I would dislike, but the inflation is pegged to attempt only to replace transaction fees, which are actually destroyed in PPC, not relayed to miners. In the end it would appear not to be inflationary. It also has a 10-minute block interval, because the PPC dev actually understands probability theory, I assume.

LTC has value because it uses Scrypt for hashing rather than SHA256, which has gotten some criticism because the NSA was highly involved in creating it, and the NSA makes everyone uneasy these days. The concern is they may have a backdoor or some secret knowledge of that particular function that enables them to take control or do something nefarious. Certainly within the realm of possibility, knowing how they operate. Who knows. (I wish Snowden would issue a statement positively indicating he was unaware of its compromise, or better yet that he is confident it is not.) PPC also uses SHA256, btw.

The 2.5-min interval of LTC isn't so short that it's downright stupid, like Zeta, but it's a bit shorter than necessary. 10 may be a touch long, maybe 5 is good, idk, but again, shorter intervals without some new innovation that makes it matter are useless, because it's time that matters, not confirmations themselves. Everyone just got brainwashed into "6-confirmations" without realizing the number 6 was a derivative calculation starting with probabilities vs. time, where Satoshi and the devs suggested 6 as an acceptable border for where confirmations can be considered "statistically improbable to reverse".

The rest of the alts offer no appreciable benefits, really. Jury's out on Ripple, it has some big backers, but I haven't analyzed it, and there seems to be a lot of money possibly skimmed to devs and people, not staying in-network. Not certain. It's an interesting idea, but until the day it's fully open source, I distrust it, and especially with it presenting itself with a name like "OpenCoin" when it is not (they now go by Ripple Labs, but still own the opencoin.com domain). I'd review this: http://ripplescam.org/ and vet things yourself before looking at Ripple. My gut doesn't trust it.

Conveniently, BTC, LTC, and PPC are the top-capitalized cryptos (if you ignore NMC). So the market knows best, too.

Uberlurker. Been here since the Finney transaction. Please consider this before replying; there is a good chance I've heard it before.

-Citizenfive
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November 28, 2013, 02:26:22 PM
 #66

I didn't read all the post so I'll apologise if this has already been said.

The speed of you transaction is based on the fee you include to process it!

In the future businesses that want a faster transaction will have to bid a higher fee that others using the payment network.

This is how the network will fund itself after the coin reward is no longer a factor.

FenixRD
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November 28, 2013, 11:23:32 PM
 #67

I didn't read all the post so I'll apologise if this has already been said.

The speed of you transaction is based on the fee you include to process it!

In the future businesses that want a faster transaction will have to bid a higher fee that others using the payment network.

This is how the network will fund itself after the coin reward is no longer a factor.

In the future we will also build infrastructure on top of the raw Bitcoin system to keep transaction numbers down so that people aren't paying fees in the single or double digit percentages for their bar tabs either. That's not much better than the world is now. Where a Satoshi is the smallest unit, sending less than 1 uBTC would necessarily equal a 1% fee, and increasing as the amount sent decreases. Today a uBTC is already about 0.11 cents (meaning 1/9th of a cent). That is already encroaching on the use case of microtipping and PPV web browsing unless bulk clearing methods are used. If 1BTC hits $1M, sending $9 results in a choice of either no fee, or a 90 cent fee. And at this point fees that small aren't really used for prioritization.

No, at that scale, something will exist on top of it, if nothing other than a PPC where P-o-S gains offset your burnt transaction fees, or. LTC's coin age for prioritization, etc. Or we see mining operations morph into something much leaner.

Uberlurker. Been here since the Finney transaction. Please consider this before replying; there is a good chance I've heard it before.

-Citizenfive
chop_chop
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November 29, 2013, 02:19:33 AM
 #68

the random confirm times are annoying.
I love when they are every 2 minutes, but the flip side is the worst when a confirms are 30 minutes apart.
DustyRah
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November 29, 2013, 02:49:40 AM
 #69

There are Bitcoin ATMs...how do they work to provide instant cash?
Kluge
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November 29, 2013, 03:26:58 AM
 #70

There are Bitcoin ATMs...how do they work to provide instant cash?
They quickly check the blockchain to ensure it isn't a "normal" double-spend and have your ID, so even if there is a problem (and really, the chance of fraud these days with the quick blockchain check is insignificant unless the ATMs accept 50+ $5,000 bills in a single transaction), they know who to sue.

Don't mix your coins someone said isn't legal
FenixRD
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November 29, 2013, 04:15:28 AM
 #71

There are Bitcoin ATMs...how do they work to provide instant cash?
They quickly check the blockchain to ensure it isn't a "normal" double-spend and have your ID, so even if there is a problem (and really, the chance of fraud these days with the quick blockchain check is insignificant unless the ATMs accept 50+ $5,000 bills in a single transaction), they know who to sue.

Exactly. If you're really sophisticated you can make sure your client implementation connects to multiple network regions via some method. With the hashrate as it is, the network is over-secured at the moment. That's because of the block rewards, but as it tones down so will the mining. The average person, even a motivated one, will not pull off a doublespend with even 5 or 10 seconds of delay between transactions. A well-funded one has no reason to use $50k of equipment for huge preparation to pull off anything less than a big payoff, so you just calculate the risk vs reward and pick a safe zone, say ATM limits of $1000 between confirmations.

This myth is perpetuated by the main places we transact, like the exchanges, which still treat 100BTC and 0.1 BTC as the same thing, but at $120K vs. $120, those are obviously very different real-world security and fraud risks! At the current hashrate, a more reasonable method might be 15 seconds of delay for propagation of 0.1 BTC (reasonable at ATMs where it can use the time it takes to count out the cash internally to mask this delay), and maybe 3 confirmations for 100BTC.

Uberlurker. Been here since the Finney transaction. Please consider this before replying; there is a good chance I've heard it before.

-Citizenfive
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