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Author Topic: Swedish ASIC miner company kncminer.com  (Read 3012236 times)
johnyj
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May 11, 2013, 04:03:43 PM
 #1061

If you produce and sell a product, then you make some profit, it is taxable. Since bitcoin is not a product but a currency, it will be treated as a capital gain, but you have never purchased that currency, what should you fill in for the purchased price?

Thats in interesting way to look at it.  There is a cost to mining though, so in a sense there is a purchase price.  A bit like the cost of making a carrot. You have to pay for the energy, tools and wages to plant the seed.

Anyway, there is no tax charged for making currency. If you look at the central bank's money printing business, they also have a cost like the material and manufacturing cost for paper money and electricity/server cost for digital money etc, but they never pay any tax to government

If you define bitcoin as a commodity, categorized as gold/silver, then you should pay tax when you sell them

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Bitcoinorama
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May 11, 2013, 04:10:38 PM
 #1062


I don't want to see the 28nm chip work as expected. I just want to see it on paper. If they can show us some kind of contract with a fab(or any other proof) then everything is fine by me(considering ORSoC is giving a hand). The increase in hashrate is pretty big(around 40% if my math is ok) and i think they may have done this to look more appealing to customers considering the nonstop increase in difficulty. Did they stated where would they get the money for R&D? From the Mars product? From ORSoC?

No, I think that has just been assumed, although maybe in their first newsletter they may have mentioned that they were using in Mars to fund Jupiter development, though they have definitely said they make no money from Mars, that it's a proof of intent.

Best, A.

I remember that too, but how will they be able to delive a fully functional device in just 4 months if they didn't even start to raise the money for ASIC R&D? What fab will take them on such a short notice?

Roadstress, I presume R&D for the most point has already been done. This is not new territory for ORSoC.

I thought that is the most expensive stuff when doing an ASIC. Why do they need upfront money from Mars and Jupiter then? Why can't they make the devices ready to sell?

Don't know, ask them. I'm sure everyone is interested in how they respond to this. Although certainly materials and fabrication will be an expense they need to cover.

EDIT: from their website's 'Mars' page:

The Mars product is basically a proof of concept that we can easily mass-produce, and together with the voucher of $2000 combined with early access to the Jupiter product, you will be able to mine with the Mars product while we are developing the Jupiter product.
Developing an ASIC costs allot of money, and it's price structure and technology decision very much depends on the volume. So it is therefore critical to have pre-orders to make the most optimal technology selection. Same applies to some extent also for the Mars product, meaning that we need to know the production volume before the actual production, in order to negotiate components prices etc. which will help us increase the voucher/ Discount from the Jupiter product, it may very well end up cheaper than the competition when this is taken into account.

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Bitcoinorama
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May 11, 2013, 04:11:56 PM
 #1063

If you produce and sell a product, then you make some profit, it is taxable. Since bitcoin is not a product but a currency, it will be treated as a capital gain, but you have never purchased that currency, what should you fill in for the purchased price?

Thats in interesting way to look at it.  There is a cost to mining though, so in a sense there is a purchase price.  A bit like the cost of making a carrot. You have to pay for the energy, tools and wages to plant the seed.

Anyway, there is no tax charged for making currency. If you look at the central bank's money printing business, they also have a cost like the material and manufacturing cost for paper money and electricity/server cost for digital money etc, but they never pay any tax to government

If you define bitcoin as a commodity, categorized as gold/silver, then you should pay tax when you sell them

Double +1!!!

Genius! That's it!! We follow their model as they are a private entity anyway!! And one Bitcoin stands to disrupt!!

They can't complain, it would be double standards in a supposedly free market.


http://www.kpmg.com/BR/PT/Estudos_Analises/artigosepublicacoes/Documents/Financial-Services/banking-financial-reporting-practices.pdf

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dan99
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May 11, 2013, 06:24:20 PM
 #1064

They are really selling their Jupiter at a very good price, do they make any profit at this price? Is good to have a lower price to create competition to benefits the consumer. Avalon DIY is $7 per chip and each chip hash 282mg/s , so to get to 350gh/s you will need
1,241 chip x $7 = $8,687? and this does not includes the pcb and other parts? Can they really sell at this price? or is Avalon making a lot of money selling their miner and the asic chip. Is the Jupiter price just a gimmick? to attract the users? if not mistaken Avalon, 60gh selling at 70btc and 80gh at 90btc .. I hope they are not given false hopes and excuses and empty promises. The question is can they do it or can it be done. If KNC is selling at this $6995, Sam I promised I will get a bunch of them and personally fly over to Stockholm to collect them and have morning tea with you or maybe even lunch and dinner : )
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May 11, 2013, 06:38:13 PM
 #1065

From what I understand as with any economy of scale. The initial development run costs, once you finalise design and order in bulk (000s as opposed to 00s) manufacture it becomes significantly cheaper. Avalon are making a huge profit on their chips, so ignore those prices relevant to their miner pricing, that only effects subsequent DIY miner pricing. Their hands are clean by then and they have no real competition as yet. Where it becomes interesting is when they do have competition (possibly here), and how Avalon react if they still want to remain players...

Avalon price according to the competitively to their competition, and they have none. Look at the differentiation in their miner prices from when they thought they were in a race against BFL, and afterwards...

Make no mistake Yifu Guo is profit driven aside his decentralisation speeches.

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May 11, 2013, 08:23:34 PM
 #1066

let get back to the topic.   


Can we have a list of volunteers that will go visit this company in person and see if they are real ?

Who is planning to go

I'd love to go....
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May 11, 2013, 08:26:42 PM
 #1067

If you produce and sell a product, then you make some profit, it is taxable. Since bitcoin is not a product but a currency, it will be treated as a capital gain, but you have never purchased that currency, what should you fill in for the purchased price?

Thats in interesting way to look at it.  There is a cost to mining though, so in a sense there is a purchase price.  A bit like the cost of making a carrot. You have to pay for the energy, tools and wages to plant the seed.

Anyway, there is no tax charged for making currency. If you look at the central bank's money printing business, they also have a cost like the material and manufacturing cost for paper money and electricity/server cost for digital money etc, but they never pay any tax to government

If you define bitcoin as a commodity, categorized as gold/silver, then you should pay tax when you sell them

Double +1!!!

Genius! That's it!! We follow their model as they are a private entity anyway!! And one Bitcoin stands to disrupt!!

They can't complain, it would be double standards in a supposedly free market.


http://www.kpmg.com/BR/PT/Estudos_Analises/artigosepublicacoes/Documents/Financial-Services/banking-financial-reporting-practices.pdf

The Bank of England is not a private entity. It was once, but not now.....
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May 11, 2013, 08:42:13 PM
 #1068

let get back to the topic.   


Can we have a list of volunteers that will go visit this company in person and see if they are real ?

Who is planning to go

I'd love to go....

i will most likely go, if possible, as i live in stockholm.
joelnet
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May 11, 2013, 08:43:46 PM
 #1069

i'm interested in following this company.  hoping their products are legit.
Bitcoinorama
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May 11, 2013, 08:47:23 PM
 #1070

let get back to the topic.    


Can we have a list of volunteers that will go visit this company in person and see if they are real ?

Who is planning to go

I'd love to go....

i will most likely go, if possible, as i live in stockholm.

So far it's Flappysocks, Glowkeeper, Chipd and myself (Bitcoinorama).

Anyone else? Does this include you M3whiteknight??

I'm assuming this will be during the week at somepoint; this works out well for me, plus cheaper flights Wink

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FlappySocks
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May 11, 2013, 08:56:29 PM
 #1071

Depends on the dates for me. Got a busy week ahead, then off to LA & Vegas.  If anyone is starting up an ASIC business in Calafornia, i'm free to check them out  Cheesy
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May 11, 2013, 09:01:26 PM
 #1072

Depends on the dates for me. Got a busy week ahead, then off to LA & Vegas.  If anyone is starting up an ASIC business in Calafornia, i'm free to check them out  Cheesy

There is; Terrahash, it's an Avalon chip -> outsourced PCB assembly service, app they purchased a load of chips to sell their own miners as well. They have a physical location in Cali, they have just secured and apparently open to verification visits. They have a thread on this board. Check 'em out.

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FlappySocks
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May 11, 2013, 09:05:37 PM
 #1073

Hmm, Avalon chips.  Not very exciting. Already got my orders in for those.  By the time I get them, everyone and their dog will be running them.
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May 11, 2013, 09:18:36 PM
 #1074

Hmm, Avalon chips.  Not very exciting. Already got my orders in for those.  By the time I get them, everyone and their dog will be running them.

Well I can't afford to make mistakes, I'm not quite in the same standing as some appear to be on this board. Having strong academic qualifications has not crossed my path with gold or worthwhile employment opportunities for that matter. I'm yet to find anywhere I have confidence of investing w.r.t. mining hardware and I'd like to make go at this if possible, but that's means limiting risk. In any case I'm being as thorough as I can with due diligence and this offers the best fit for me. The fact they are in Europe and open to personal and independant verification is a big personal plus.

I'm weary of US, Asian and other continents (Cedartec - Lebanon - Middle East lol) and call out blatant scams when I see them. For the most part i'm weary as I'm no where near there physically and can't see for myself. I don't see BFL as a scam, just responsible for making a massive clusterfuck of assumptions and overpromising which is why I don't want to see a repeat of promising what appears to be too good to be true. Rather see under promising and over delivering any day! Welcome surprises are always...err...welcome.

I believe KNC and ORSoC can manage an FPGA, I want to see evidence they can manage next gen 28nm ASICs though.

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KS
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May 11, 2013, 10:28:35 PM
 #1075

Hmm, Avalon chips.  Not very exciting. Already got my orders in for those.  By the time I get them, everyone and their dog will be running them.

Well I can't afford to make mistakes, I'm not quite in the same standing as some appear to be on this board. Having strong academic qualifications has not crossed my path with gold or worthwhile employment opportunities for that matter. I'm yet to find anywhere I have confidence of investing w.r.t. mining hardware and I'd like to make go at this if possible, but that's means limiting risk. In any case I'm being as thorough as I can with due diligence and this offers the best fit for me. The fact they are in Europe and open to personal and independant verification is a big personal plus.

I'm weary of US, Asian and other continents (Cedartec - Lebanon - Middle East lol) and call out blatant scams when I see them. For the most part i'm weary as I'm no where near there physically and can't see for myself. I don't see BFL as a scam, just responsible for making a massive clusterfuck of assumptions and overpromising which is why I don't want to see a repeat of promising what appears to be too good to be true. Rather see under promising and over delivering any day! Welcome surprises are always...err...welcome.

I believe KNC and ORSoC can manage an FPGA, I want to see evidence they can manage next gen 28nm ASICs though.

Geez, one more positive comment on KnC and I'm REPORTING you. Smiley

They have zero track record and haven't even submitted an annual report for their "legit consulting business" of 2011-2012. They have close to zero capital and no customers to speak of.

They managed to convince ORSoC to publish a partnership announcement, but that's worth about less than the paper it's written on as a guarantee of feasibility or honesty.

You want to limit your risk and you propose to Invest in a company with no track record, no capital, no product, no tax declaration. A company that could fold tomorrow with the preorders and never have to deliver. You guys seem to have no idea about (international) business. KnC is not a reputable company with a proven track record. CAUTION. Their partners DON'T MATTER if it's KnC calling the shots and stealing the money. Who are you going to complain to? Ask ORSoC for a refund? Ha!

You want to limit your risk? Buy a product that's shipping. (that's to you and everybody else)

“In Putin’s Russia bitcoin exchanges you.” - http://www.coindesk.com/ceo-bitcoin-officially-bans-china/
List of major BTC scams https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=576337
Bitstamp "no transfer" banks/countries list: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=270716.0
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May 11, 2013, 10:35:57 PM
 #1076

I don't have a business  Sad

If your going into Bitcoin mining, then you have a business!  Wink

I'm still confused by all this as Bitcoin is still not officially accepted by government entities.

So to register and gain a VAT number and then provide annual accounts of what exactly?

I could make a business with potentially loads of expense and no gain, or if they do recognise bitcoins eventually pay a huge income tax, potentially thieving any profit. Profit thats volatile and may disappear subsequent to annual admission?!

Surely bitcoin mining is just a hobby until there is some wider acceptance and legislation??

I would love to hear of a clear strategy here Flappy...

You're not an official mint, so you're a business or individual with no special status.

The Taxman's view is easy: if it wasn't there before, it's a profit and it's taxable. That's for fiat.

BTC don't exist in their worlds (because it's not officially recognized they can't accept it as payment, sooooo "it doesn't exist" solves their problems).

Now you can choose to declare said profit as an individual or as a business. As an individual, it becomes quickly awkward to explain and you can't get any of the usual business benefits such as tax deductions, risk reserves, whatnot.

As a business, it's much simpler: if it wasn't there before, it's because you made it because you're in the business if making it. They don't care what, they don't care how, it's only important that you show expenses and profits and that you can be taxed.

“In Putin’s Russia bitcoin exchanges you.” - http://www.coindesk.com/ceo-bitcoin-officially-bans-china/
List of major BTC scams https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=576337
Bitstamp "no transfer" banks/countries list: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=270716.0
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May 11, 2013, 10:40:02 PM
 #1077

Building such huge ASICs device cost a lot. I'm really interested to know how are they able to provide in such price?

Not just you as a Swedish company, either those companies who are offering same !

350 GH/S !!! 8K $ ?
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May 11, 2013, 11:08:59 PM
 #1078

You want to limit your risk? Buy a product that's shipping. (that's to you and everybody else)

There is always an element of risk, especially when your working with the bleeding edge of a new industry. That's why we are going to visit KNC to see what it's all about. To see if the risk is worth it.

And even then, it's a risk:

Goods manufactured.
Bitcoins received.
Packaged, and waiting for DHL to collect.

Factory burns down. Insurance company wont pay because customers paid in Bitcoins.

Shit happens.

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May 11, 2013, 11:14:46 PM
 #1079

You want to limit your risk? Buy a product that's shipping. (that's to you and everybody else)

There is always an element of risk, especially when your working with the bleeding edge of a new industry. That's why we are going to visit KNC to see what it's all about. To see if the risk is worth it.

And even then, it's a risk:

Goods manufactured.
Bitcoins received.
Packaged, and waiting for DHL to collect.

Factory burns down. Insurance company wont pay because customers paid in Bitcoins.

Shit happens.



Look, any business you start that has a chance of actually making is needs seed capital and/or customers. 5000 EUR is failure capital. No customers is just failure.

You have no money, you don't pay engineers, you don't have a product.

Show me the money and I'll revise my assumption of FAIL.

“In Putin’s Russia bitcoin exchanges you.” - http://www.coindesk.com/ceo-bitcoin-officially-bans-china/
List of major BTC scams https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=576337
Bitstamp "no transfer" banks/countries list: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=270716.0
Bitcoinorama
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May 11, 2013, 11:23:09 PM
 #1080


You want to limit your risk? Buy a product that's shipping. (that's to you and everybody else)

There is always an element of risk, especially when your working with the bleeding edge of a new industry. That's why we are going to visit KNC to see what it's all about. To see if the risk is worth it.

And even then, it's a risk:

Goods manufactured.
Bitcoins received.
Packaged, and waiting for DHL to collect.

Factory burns down. Insurance company wont pay because customers paid in Bitcoins.

Shit happens.



Eh? I'm paying by Credit Card via Paypal and then paying the card off immediately. I want buyer protection.

Look, any business you start that has a chance of actually making is needs seed capital and/or customers. 5000 EUR is failure capital. No customers is just failure.

You have no money, you don't pay engineers, you don't have a product.

Show me the money and I'll revise my assumption of FAIL.

What do you mean by 5000EUR is failure capital?

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