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Author Topic: Swedish ASIC miner company kncminer.com  (Read 3049421 times)
jimmothy
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June 15, 2014, 02:28:11 AM
 #34801

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Now that's an unfair bet. Why the difference in power costs?

No it's not an unfair bet because many pay less than $0.1/kwh for home electricity but almost nobody pays less than $0.15/kwh for DC hosting.

Quote
As I previously said no normal miner and no big mining operation will buy 84kg miners for 6TH at ~6.5KW power requirement. I can host my SP30 at home, can't say the same about rockminer miners.

Normal miners have 50-2000w worth of hardware.

Big mining operations (50kw+) will not care about weight(shipping pallets is cheap) and they won't care 50% efficiency since they pay less than $0.05/kwh.

Sp30s are for those miners who are somewhere inbetween which is inefficient because you need to pay someone to host them.
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June 15, 2014, 02:35:57 AM
 #34802


No it's not an unfair bet because many pay less than $0.1/kwh for home electricity but almost nobody pays less than $0.15/kwh for DC hosting.

Why would you assume that the spaghetti monsters will be hosted at home while the SP30 will be hosted in a DC? Why can't both be hosted either at home either in a DC? That would be a fair bet.

Also good luck hosting ~6500W in USA on 110V! Lots of re-wiring needed!

Quote
Normal miners have 50-2000w worth of hardware.

Big mining operations (50kw+) will not care about weight(shipping pallets is cheap) and they won't care 50% efficiency since they pay less than $0.05/kwh.

Sp30s are for those miners who are somewhere inbetween which is inefficient because you need to pay someone to host them.

So a normal miner would be able to get and host an SP30(2500W), but can't get/host the spaghetti monsters(6500W). Great find!

You are contradicting yourself again. You are assuming that regular miners will buy 6Th/s rockminer miners, but they won't buy an SP30. I don't understand why since the rockminer miners need a lot more power.

Please don't hesitate to show me a big mining operation with rockminer miners that isn't affiliated in any way with AM or rockminer. Will tip you 0.1 BTC for your trouble! But I'm sure that we won't see it because it's simply too much headache to set them up.

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June 15, 2014, 02:36:12 AM
 #34803

As I previously said no normal miner and no big mining operation will buy 84kg miners for 6TH at ~6.5KW power requirement. I can host my SP30 at home, can't say the same about rockminer miners.

The last time I had something like that "hosted" in my home was when I had over 2500w of GPUs mining in a room.  It required having every window wide open in the dead of winter.

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RoadStress
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June 15, 2014, 02:37:43 AM
 #34804

As I previously said no normal miner and no big mining operation will buy 84kg miners for 6TH at ~6.5KW power requirement. I can host my SP30 at home, can't say the same about rockminer miners.

The last time I had something like that "hosted" in my home was when I had over 2500w of GPUs mining in a room.  It required having every window wide open in the dead of winter.

So you could host 2500W at home. Imagine hosting 6500W at home for just 6Th  Roll Eyes Mission impossible!

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June 15, 2014, 02:55:31 AM
 #34805

So you could host 2500W at home. Imagine hosting 6500W at home for just 6Th  Roll Eyes Mission impossible!

But 6TH is an arbitrary number which spondoolies decided would be ideal but is actually inefficient because you need to pay for hosting.

If you need to pay someone for hosting, you are losing money. As much as you might really want 6TH-20TH worth of equiptment, it is simply inefficient unless you can host it yourself.

Rockminer gives those with an electricity cap as low as ~200w a chance to mine while keeping a competative $/gh. Spreading the hashrate instead of shoving it all in to datacenters.
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June 15, 2014, 03:05:32 AM
 #34806

So you could host 2500W at home. Imagine hosting 6500W at home for just 6Th  Roll Eyes Mission impossible!

But 6TH is an arbitrary number which spondoolies decided would be ideal but is actually inefficient because you need to pay for hosting.

If you need to pay someone for hosting, you are losing money. As much as you might really want 6TH-20TH worth of equiptment, it is simply inefficient unless you can host it yourself.

Rockminer gives those with an electricity cap as low as ~200w a chance to mine while keeping a competative $/gh. Spreading the hashrate instead of shoving it all in to datacenters.

Again you are not a miner and you shouldn't give advice of how miners should act. I just demonstrated you that you CAN host 6Th/s at home without the need of a datacenter. You CAN'T host 6Th/s at home using rockminer miners.

Secondly only US miners have access to low power costs. All europeans (like myself) pay a premium price for electricity and having the possibility to host the miner in a DC at $0.15/kwh is actually GOOD.

All miners already own mining equipment and are very close to their electricity cap that's why a DC where you pay the same price as you would pay home or maybe less comes very handy.

And sorry but any miner requiring 200w is close to useless when it comes to spreading the hashrate since the global hashrate just jumped over 100k Th/s  so that is pure BS.

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June 15, 2014, 03:16:55 AM
 #34807

All europeans (like myself) pay a premium price for electricity and having the possibility to host the miner in a DC at $0.15/kwh is actually GOOD.

Hey now, last year I ended up paying about $0,14/kwh averaged out over the entire year and I live in Taxland aka Sweden!

You CAN'T host 6Th/s at home using rockminer miners.

I'll tell my 4,4TH of S1s who are generating over 8KW of heat the sad news then, the Internet has declared them impossible Sad
Granted I have banished them to the garage since middle of may since they were starting to get a bit noisy!
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June 15, 2014, 03:18:42 AM
 #34808



yeah maybe ....my timing sucks..KNC's rep went to hell starting 1 wk after i got the Titan....jeez

but yeah I'm stuck with the Titan

as it is now it is pretty clear anyone with 5k or some such should just buy btc on the old (can it be old if btc born in 2009) the ''old' adage...anything UNDER 1k per bitcoin will seem like a 'deal' in 2 years....or the *we shall not mention crosses self* alternative of bust in 2 years

one or the other (at least my splat will be bigger then most if we all fall from 'orbit" neaha neaha)

Searing


yeah, no refund for the Titan - it's easy to guess why. Neptune was fucked up and people used refunds. With a Titan you're stuck forever with the pre-order. Investing in Bitcoins themselves has become more lucrative than hoping for good miners.

KNC needed a fusion of cash quickly and the TITAN was their best bet. They sure as hell snagged a lot of people I bet.


sigh...snagged..sigh (in my defense it was 2 weeks later KNC seemed to hit the skids)....snagged.....rubs crotch...they coulda/shoulda snag'd me elsewhere)

Titan ....jeez I guess the Drama of BFL last year was not enough abuse... (and 1yr 20day getting refund was not enough)

crap I'm a 'buzz' junkie on BTC .....its the danger man....

sigh

Searing

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June 15, 2014, 03:19:50 AM
 #34809

Again you are not a miner and you shouldn't give advice of how miners should act. I just demonstrated you that you CAN host 6Th/s at home without the need of a datacenter. You CAN'T host 6Th/s at home using rockminer miners.

You are limited to 1 and only 1 sp30 at home where as there are many different ways you could max out your home circuit using rockminers.

Besides 3TH/s today is worth 6TH/s in 3 months.

Quote
Secondly only US miners have access to low power costs. All europeans (like myself) pay a premium price for electricity and having the possibility to host the miner in a DC at $0.15/kwh is actually GOOD.

Not all europeans have high electricity costs and I'm sure you know that. Sorry for those of you who do, but mining is simply not for you.(long term at least).

Quote
All miners already own mining equipment and are very close to their electricity cap that's why a DC where you pay the same price as you would pay home or maybe less comes very handy.

You could always sell your equipment to someone with lower electricity costs and buy more efficient in stock hardware when you need to upgrade.

Quote
And sorry but any miner requiring 200w is close to useless when it comes to spreading the hashrate since the global hashrate just jumped over 100k Th/s  so that is pure BS.

6TH is useless compared to a 5PH immersion cooled monster from xbtec.

Anyways close to useless is still not useless. Keep in mind there are a few people who found blocks on their 0.33gh/s BE usb miners.

I think you know that most of the sp30s will end up in datacenters where as a large portion of rockminers will end up in homes.
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June 15, 2014, 03:28:37 AM
 #34810

However if you like KNC simply make someone else pay for your NRE costs it made a lot more sense to jump directly to 20 vs 28nm.

Rogaz, sometimes you say something that encourages me to think you are a knowledgeable and insightful guy (forgive me if you are a girl)  and sometimes you say something really stupid.

KNC didn't make anybody pay for their NRE costs. People voluntarily entered into contracts for future delivery of a product (aka pre-order). This is no different that what Spondoolies is doing with the SP30.

Given the economics of bitcoin mining and the difficulty in raising finance for bitcoin related activities from conventional sources, it is often the only way to go. Like Guy said in the Spondoolies thread IIRC … 'we don't have 27 million dollars to finance 3 SP30 batches.'

No pre-orders, no SP30, no Neptune, no progress. There is a race on with bitcoin difficulty and there is no time to tinker around …

~L)L~

I think that you intentionally distort the comparison here. Spondoolies ALMOST have the Sp-30, they are 30-45 days away (maybe even closer) while KnC collected the pre-orders in November and still did not deliver until late June (at best), which is full seven months later. In addition, KnC played a clever mindtrick by saying that first batch will be delivered in Q1/Q2 (in some older documents or comments they even said spring). Calling this a possible Q1 product was an exaggeration because they certainly knew that it will NOT be done in Q1. I also find it appalling that they keep making these legalese tricks-like we are not consumers, for example to get from under the consumer protection in EU law.
Whatever they will come up with-good for them, but I will not play the game on these terms.

After the Jupiter KNC used all their energy and resources to their monster data center and that's why customers haven't received due attention or come out with another product or one working "Super Jupiter". Usually after 3-4 months a manufacturer would have another product out, but KNC didn't. They took the easy road, get richer and build a monster data center. KNC should make a public apology for shipping that hardware to people. If they were stand up they would have just given the customer back their money in BTC and some compensation. Not a box full of pieces of broken hardware.

completely agree...the 4 months off last year not shipping equip so we could 'hash' as they stated w/o competing against more PH was a scam...so rather then us getting equip
they got the 'supposed' equip 28mm we were supposed to get as modules....to make their giant PH farm

was an epic 'bait and switch' .they even got most of us to wait to get equip on the 'promise' modules were coming from nov till march ..so did not buy from compeitiors

selling miners to us is a 'sideline' due to the fact they promised Neptune....then imho BTC tanked and then they said 1 more time and offered Titan

imho they will not even offer equip at a consumer level after Titan it will all be 'virtual farms' due to the fact with $$$ they have from chip to farm they will have the
least expense to do so in the future...but the catch is they will always get the product (who's development paid for by pre-order) first to hash for their farms
it will work well for them unfortunately in my view

anyway thats how I see it...seems in bitcoin land there is a rush to 'centralization' for everything

live an learn (at least for me I always seem the last in line to go.."ohhhhhhh" as the light bulb goes off..then the obligatory 'damn it')

Searing

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June 15, 2014, 04:54:46 AM
 #34811

Hey now, last year I ended up paying about $0,14/kwh averaged out over the entire year and I live in Taxland aka Sweden!

Sweden relies on nuclear and hydro power which is cheap. Even so a $0.14/kwh means that paying $0.15/kwh for colocation in a DC is equally the same. No loss there!

Quote
I'll tell my 4,4TH of S1s who are generating over 8KW of heat the sad news then, the Internet has declared them impossible Sad
Granted I have banished them to the garage since middle of may since they were starting to get a bit noisy!

You are an exception and you know it. I would like to see how many miners are able to host and cool 8KW at home. Not many. Especially US residents who are on 110V! Because jimmothy keeps reminding me about the US miners with their cheap power. It's a wet dream for a regular US miner to host 8KW at home.

You are limited to 1 and only 1 sp30 at home where as there are many different ways you could max out your home circuit using rockminers.

Besides 3TH/s today is worth 6TH/s in 3 months.

No. You are limited by your power circuit. Everyone has X W spare for mining. Filling it with SP30 would mean that for every W that they have free they can accommodate 2Gh/s while filling it with rockminers means that they can accommodate only 0.9GH/s. The obvious pick is obvious.

Quote
Not all europeans have high electricity costs and I'm sure you know that. Sorry for those of you who do, but mining is simply not for you.(long term at least).
Europeans pay a higher price than americans.

Quote
You could always sell your equipment to someone with lower electricity costs and buy more efficient in stock hardware when you need to upgrade.

Yes good luck shipping the big fat rockminers to anyone. I can justify shipping for 15 burnin avalon gen1 boards and you imply that anyone will pay a lot of money to ship 42kgs worth of 3TH/s rockminers? Good luck with that!

Rockminer gives those with an electricity cap as low as ~200w a chance to mine while keeping a competative $/gh. Spreading the hashrate instead of shoving it all in to datacenters.
And sorry but any miner requiring 200w is close to useless when it comes to spreading the hashrate since the global hashrate just jumped over 100k Th/s  so that is pure BS.
6TH is useless compared to a 5PH immersion cooled monster from xbtec.
I think you know that most of the sp30s will end up in datacenters where as a large portion of rockminers will end up in homes.

Besides the fact that you negated your own statement (yeah sure 200w rockminers will help spread the hashrate while there is a 5PH immersion cooled monster out there) I really wish that the sp30s will end up in datacenters and that a large portion of rockminers will end up in homes. I really do! Once the home miners will fill their power circuit I am sure that their next purchase in order to stay in the mining game will definitely be a SP30 or SP50 miner because of it's power efficiency since they will need to pay more for power and because of their construction which is DC ready. It all makes sense: keep power hungry miners at home where electricity is cheap and keep efficient miners in a DC where electricity is expensive.


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June 15, 2014, 05:23:43 AM
 #34812

Average electricity rate in US is .16  it can vary as low as .08 in Washington to as high as .37 in california and new york.

Source?
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June 15, 2014, 05:27:42 AM
 #34813

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Now that's an unfair bet. Why the difference in power costs?

No it's not an unfair bet because many pay less than $0.1/kwh for home electricity but almost nobody pays less than $0.15/kwh for DC hosting.

Quote
As I previously said no normal miner and no big mining operation will buy 84kg miners for 6TH at ~6.5KW power requirement. I can host my SP30 at home, can't say the same about rockminer miners.

Normal miners have 50-2000w worth of hardware.

Big mining operations (50kw+) will not care about weight(shipping pallets is cheap) and they won't care 50% efficiency since they pay less than $0.05/kwh.

Sp30s are for those miners who are somewhere inbetween which is inefficient because you need to pay someone to host them.

Average electricity rate in US is .16  it can vary as low as .08 in Washington to as high as .37 in california and new york.  MIne here in PA is .16 total, you are looking at rate of electricity cost and delivery, etc.  This is total cost on your bill.




Most sources dont have the total cost.

http://cleantechnica.com/2013/09/30/average-electricity-prices-around-world/

Add another .04 to .05 to the US for correct prices, for delivery,   for the transportation use of lines etc.
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June 15, 2014, 05:32:16 AM
 #34814

By US States:


http://www.eia.gov/electricity/monthly/epm_table_grapher.cfm?t=epmt_5_6_a
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June 15, 2014, 05:35:18 AM
 #34815

You are an exception and you know it. I would like to see how many miners are able to host and cool 8KW at home. Not many. Especially US residents who are on 110V! Because jimmothy keeps reminding me about the US miners with their cheap power. It's a wet dream for a regular US miner to host 8KW at home.

I don't think he is a rare exception. Anyone willing to throw down $10k+ on hardware should have no problem upgrading their home circuit.

Quote
You are limited to 1 and only 1 sp30 at home where as there are many different ways you could max out your home circuit using rockminers.

Besides 3TH/s today is worth 6TH/s in 3 months.

No. You are limited by your power circuit. Everyone has X W spare for mining. Filling it with SP30 would mean that for every W that they have free they can accommodate 2Gh/s while filling it with rockminers means that they can accommodate only 0.9GH/s. The obvious pick is obvious.

Yes, but with rockminer devices you have the option to share an outlet with other appliances.

Quote
Yes good luck shipping the big fat rockminers to anyone. I can justify shipping for 15 burnin avalon gen1 boards and you imply that anyone will pay a lot of money to ship 42kgs worth of 3TH/s rockminers? Good luck with that!

Shipping in america is flat rate and shipping from china to america can be as low as $6/kg via fedex someone said.
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June 15, 2014, 05:37:06 AM
 #34816


That's what I was looking at. Are those not the actual rates per kwh?
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June 15, 2014, 05:40:05 AM
 #34817


These are average rates taken by the US governent for census purposes.  But they are not totally accurate as they include the wholesale cost and another expense, but they do not include the use of delivery line and another charge which is about another .04 to .05 that is not refllected in that chart.  So delivered cost is about .04-.05 higher. When the consumer get the bill.
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June 15, 2014, 05:41:37 AM
 #34818


not sure if this applies to you guys calculations.but according to my power co in upper midwest..they say my kwh rate is .086c
when you figure taxes and other stuff on the bill the real price per kwh is .15c

so look at your sources and figure accordingly

Searing

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June 15, 2014, 05:48:56 AM
 #34819


These are average rates taken by the US governent for census purposes.  But they are not totally accurate as they include the wholesale cost and another expense, but they do not include the use of delivery line and another charge which is about another .04 to .05 that is not refllected in that chart.  So delivered cost is about .04-.05 higher. When the consumer get the bill.

Meh that's a bit misleading.

Regardless, those stats are just averages and there are people with residential costs below $0.1/kwh and even more people who have access to commercial/industrial rates lower than $0.1/kwh.
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June 15, 2014, 05:57:53 AM
 #34820

There is less than 9 states out of 52 that have costs under .10 before the extra charges of .04 to .05, in reality the lowest would be Washington State around .12 to ,13 cents total when the bill comes.

Look at this bill for Industrial its .05 cents for the electricy  BUT:

http://www.sceg.com/NR/rdonlyres/8EC63040-9B5D-4D32-90BA-360835AE8B24/0/rate23.pdf
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