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Author Topic: Swedish ASIC miner company kncminer.com  (Read 3008464 times)
cypherdoc
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July 17, 2013, 02:34:14 PM
 #3721

Tempting to upgrade one of my Saturns....nice that there isn't any BFL type pressure on the decision

Right, the fact that they say it will still be available in August is great.  No real need to rush and upgrade, we can wait a few more weeks to see how they progress.

Makes me wish I did all Saturns so I only put down 50% and then could upgrade later-- less risk.   So far they have done nothing to show that they aren't doing their best to deliver.  Crossing my fingers!!!   I got my BFL order refunded so should I upgrade or just buy more LTC?  Smiley
WHO says August? BFL? KNC never did. If BFL is saying August and you believe it, you'd better take a looksie at this:  https://forums.butterflylabs.com/blogs/bfl_jody/239-tuesday-july-16-2013-shipping-update.html  JUNE 23 2012 is the very first day they took orders. They are not done with shipping day one after shipping for how long? It's now 45 days till September. You think BFL will be caught up with a year of orders in 45 days, when they've been delivering for so long, and got nowhere?

what are you talking about?


anyway, yeah letting us decide to upgrade into August is a nice jesture.  And doesn't really screw the Jupiter customers since they get it much cheaper for having more balls/faith

So we pay a little more for getting to hedge a bit.  They are trying to balance out win-wins for everyone, themselves included



well, it certainly hurts those of us who ordered Jupiters in the last couple of weeks.


you still get it at a lesser cost.  do the math

 

lesser cost?  how so?  i did the math and my conclusion is the same. 

it's not a "win-win situation for everyone involved".


It is $300 cheaper to order a Jupiter than ordering a Saturn + Upgrade.


ah, ok.  sounds fair to me.
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FeedbackLoop
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July 17, 2013, 02:43:34 PM
 #3722

It is unpleasant this tendency that KNCminer has of changing the relative position of their clients.

Earlier we had the queue trading service that forced people with higher queue numbers to either spend money trading or be subject to the new risk of their queue position being worth a lot less.

Now it's this very long period for Saturn upgrade which is unfair for those who have put money upfront for Jupiters and, again, has the potential to put hash power ahead of the queue position you thought you had. But mainly it is the risk unfairness and interest money loss: a Saturn buyer took less risk and will get a bigger reward (non-stalled money that could be used in other things for a few months and the option to see a few months ahead how difficulty, btc exchange rates and KNCminer are progressing before having to commit the full Jupiter money.) Very unfair!

They do communicate and seem to be the most promising "horse" so far but their decisions show that they don't worry too much about the investment risks that their clients had to consider and chose to  take. This could be very distressing whenever new developments like technology, legal, and exchange rates hit because you don't know what extra risks come from KNCminer trying to be "friendly" to some of their clients in an unpredictable way.


edit: just read the 300 usd mark up posted while I was writing (should have used the feature yes). The point still holds: unnecessary risk exposure to their clients who need to consider KNCminer change of rules at every purchase/service and that may be very serious when KNCminer has to make decisions that affect their clients forced by third parties or exterior factors.
WastedLTC
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July 17, 2013, 03:03:56 PM
 #3723

It is unpleasant this tendency that KNCminer has of changing the relative position of their clients.

Earlier we had the queue trading service that forced people with higher queue numbers to either spend money trading or be subject to the new risk of their queue position being worth a lot less.

Now it's this very long period for Saturn upgrade which is unfair for those who have put money upfront for Jupiters and, again, has the potential to put hash power ahead of the queue position you thought you had. But mainly it is the risk unfairness and interest money loss: a Saturn buyer took less risk and will get a bigger reward (non-stalled money that could be used in other things for a few months and the option to see a few months ahead how difficulty, btc exchange rates and KNCminer are progressing before having to commit the full Jupiter money.) Very unfair!

They do communicate and seem to be the most promising "horse" so far but their decisions show that they don't worry too much about the investment risks that their clients had to consider and chose to  take. This could be very distressing whenever new developments like technology, legal, and exchange rates hit because you don't know what extra risks come from KNCminer trying to be "friendly" to some of their clients in an unpredictable way.


edit: just read the 300 usd mark up posted while I was writing (should have used the feature yes). The point still holds: unnecessary risk exposure to their clients who need to consider KNCminer change of rules at every purchase/service and that may be very serious when KNCminer has to make decisions that affect their clients forced by third parties or exterior factors.

I ordered 2 jupiters and 1 saturn and do agree with you but KNC isn't allowing someone like me to add a new unit to my order, just upgrade so that is looking out for everyone in line.  Would I have held on to my money and spent 300 more for less risk and done the upgrade to all my units if I knew this was an option -- YES.   Flip side, this was not known.  Also, KNC upped the hashing power without changing the price.   Look at all the great things KNC has done for the initial investors.

I remember getting an email from BFL asking for $500 to add 20GH/s to my unit.  KNC added 50 for free and also allowed new customers to purchase these units at original price. 

Also, at first I thought everyone selling 1-500 placements for hundreds of dollars was CRAZY!  I thought it would hurt my investment but in the end, I'm still in Day 1 without a 1-500 unit.   (I did end up buying a single unit in the 1-500 placement for 20 LTC just incase but in the end, all 3 of my units are shipping day 1).   I asked KNC about this prior to ordering and they assured me that my placement was early enough that I should not worry.   They were correct and honest.

The guys at KNC are doing a great job and I hope they can deliver!  September will be an amazing month.
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July 17, 2013, 03:13:07 PM
 #3724

Has anyone done any of the math to figure out if it's even worth it to buy a Jupiter now? I've been looking to get into ASIC mining for a while, but I always seem to miss the original announcements for these things by a month or two. As I'm sure you all know, the later you receive the device, the longer it takes to pay itself off. I'd hate to order one now to only have it pay for itself in 5 years. Tongue
robix
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July 17, 2013, 03:18:45 PM
 #3725

There is no better GH/$ relation on the market atm.
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July 17, 2013, 03:30:08 PM
 #3726

There is no better GH/$ relation on the market atm.

I can see that, but KNC is predicted to add 450 Th/s of hashing power to the network (http://www.coindesk.com/a-look-inside-kncminer/). Isn't that going to make the difficulty skyrocket? A 400 Gh/s miner isn't going to make much if the total network hashing power is over 1000 times that.
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July 17, 2013, 03:30:47 PM
 #3727

Yes, I agree they have been doing great things, especially when compared with epic failures like BFL. So far, like I said, they look like the best horse and that is why i paid them and the third party queue trader to be with them. I will also likely pay for their services further and maybe even buy new units.

Regarding the trading queue's, I wish I had not paid as much as I did for my 1-500: I paid because of the RISK. Risk has a cost and KNCminer and a lot of people here do not seem to understand that. Sure in the end they've put an enormous amount of orders in day 1 and 2 thus making everything "fine" (as an aside one has to also ask how much of this was achieved by simply delaying the first units) but when the risk was there some people had to assume that risk or incur in a cost like I did to get rid of it. And that risk came purely due to the surprise KNCminer service of queue trading. I would have been fine as well without losing the few BTC I did to that service but how could I have known???

Now imagine the following: new chip tech comes out that doubles the hash power. KNC puts new products for sale with the new technology. You have money to invest in one of those units but also an "old" unit. What do you do? Sure you can try to get KNC to clarify their position on old unit upgrades but now introduce a few more complications like new unit queues, upgrade queues, hosting offers attached to units, queue trading, "send money in x days" offers, what about upgrades in the new line of products that do not affect the new product queue,... you have to assume unnecessary extra risk coming from KNC trying to be friendly to some clients in your decision and possibly pay extra to third parties to make sure you won't get 3000 THs ahead of you.

Unnecessary loss of money and headaches in an already hard to figure investment!

 

  


 




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July 17, 2013, 03:41:15 PM
 #3728

There is no better GH/$ relation on the market atm.

I can see that, but KNC is predicted to add 450 Th/s of hashing power to the network (http://www.coindesk.com/a-look-inside-kncminer/). Isn't that going to make the difficulty skyrocket? A 400 Gh/s miner isn't going to make much if the total network hashing power is over 1000 times that.
It's your own evaluation you have to follow when investing into mining hw.
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July 17, 2013, 03:44:04 PM
 #3729

Yes, I agree they have been doing great things, especially when compared with epic failures like BFL. So far, like I said, they look like the best horse and that is why i paid them and the third party queue trader to be with them. I will also likely pay for their services further and maybe even buy new units.

Regarding the trading queue's, I wish I had not paid as much as I did for my 1-500: I paid because of the RISK. Risk has a cost and KNCminer and a lot of people here do not seem to understand that. Sure in the end they've put an enormous amount of orders in day 1 and 2 thus making everything "fine" (as an aside one has to also ask how much of this was achieved by simply delaying the first units) but when the risk was there some people had to assume that risk or incur in a cost like I did to get rid of it. And that risk came purely due to the surprise KNCminer service of queue trading. I would have been fine as well without losing the few BTC I did to that service but how could I have known???

Now imagine the following: new chip tech comes out that doubles the hash power. KNC puts new products for sale with the new technology. You have money to invest in one of those units but also an "old" unit. What do you do? Sure you can try to get KNC to clarify their position on old unit upgrades but now introduce a few more complications like new unit queues, upgrade queues, hosting offers attached to units, queue trading, "send money in x days" offers, what about upgrades in the new line of products that do not affect the new product queue,... you have to assume unnecessary extra risk coming from KNC trying to be friendly to some clients in your decision and possibly pay extra to third parties to make sure you won't get 3000 THs ahead of you.

Unnecessary loss of money and headaches in an already hard to figure investment!

 

  


 






can u summarize this trading queue business that was going on initially before i was around?
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July 17, 2013, 03:45:36 PM
 #3730

There is no better GH/$ relation on the market atm.

I can see that, but KNC is predicted to add 450 Th/s of hashing power to the network (http://www.coindesk.com/a-look-inside-kncminer/). Isn't that going to make the difficulty skyrocket? A 400 Gh/s miner isn't going to make much if the total network hashing power is over 1000 times that.
You can answer that yourself, and guess what that increase in difficulty might mean as well as anyone.  Just divide the network hash rate you estimate by 7.16 million to translate to difficulty.  Then use your calculator of choice.

Also, 1/1000 th of the network is nothing to sneeze at.  Remember: 3600 coins per day:  your share at that level is 3.6 coins.  As long as one doesn't get blinded by greed and pay the current levels of gouging retail ask prices for hardware, that's a pretty fair return rate.
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July 17, 2013, 03:47:44 PM
 #3731

There is no better GH/$ relation on the market atm.

I can see that, but KNC is predicted to add 450 Th/s of hashing power to the network (http://www.coindesk.com/a-look-inside-kncminer/). Isn't that going to make the difficulty skyrocket? A 400 Gh/s miner isn't going to make much if the total network hashing power is over 1000 times that.
What payback period would be acceptable for you?
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July 17, 2013, 03:49:06 PM
 #3732

There is no better GH/$ relation on the market atm.

I can see that, but KNC is predicted to add 450 Th/s of hashing power to the network (http://www.coindesk.com/a-look-inside-kncminer/). Isn't that going to make the difficulty skyrocket? A 400 Gh/s miner isn't going to make much if the total network hashing power is over 1000 times that.
You can answer that yourself, and guess what that increase in difficulty might mean as well as anyone.  Just divide the network hash rate you estimate by 7.16 million to translate to difficulty.  Then use your calculator of choice.

!!!
OR you could just take the hashrate of 1 unit / total hashrate *3600 and you have ~ btc per day

Who wants to be a billionaire? Me!
You could help Wink 1Dvja1RFCqxdnYRgjTntwGvdCeUisU4xp
WastedLTC
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July 17, 2013, 03:50:18 PM
 #3733

There is no better GH/$ relation on the market atm.

I can see that, but KNC is predicted to add 450 Th/s of hashing power to the network (http://www.coindesk.com/a-look-inside-kncminer/). Isn't that going to make the difficulty skyrocket? A 400 Gh/s miner isn't going to make much if the total network hashing power is over 1000 times that.
It's your own evaluation you have to follow when investing into mining hw.

Agreed.   Here is some more information for you. (not official but can help)
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=249065.0

As you can see, some people believe it is worth ordering today but its your money to risk.   If I did not have an order with KNC, I personally would not purchase one today.  I would continue to look for other opportunities in this market.  If something was to spike for me, maybe I would then move some of those funds in with KNC (if I didn't have an order already).
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July 17, 2013, 03:51:29 PM
 #3734

There is no better GH/$ relation on the market atm.

I can see that, but KNC is predicted to add 450 Th/s of hashing power to the network (http://www.coindesk.com/a-look-inside-kncminer/). Isn't that going to make the difficulty skyrocket? A 400 Gh/s miner isn't going to make much if the total network hashing power is over 1000 times that.
You can answer that yourself, and guess what that increase in difficulty might mean as well as anyone.  Just divide the network hash rate you estimate by 7.16 million to translate to difficulty.  Then use your calculator of choice.

!!!
OR you could just take the hashrate of 1 unit / total hashrate *3600 and you have ~ btc per day
Yeah, actually I was adding that edit while you commented.  People just love their difficulty, though, because of the calculators' biases to it.
WastedLTC
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July 17, 2013, 03:59:11 PM
 #3735

Is anyone thinking about flying in from USA to pickup their unit(s)?  Removing shipping risk/cost and any customs issues? + added hashing time.

Wouldn't it be worth the trip?  I guess the toughest part of that would be knowing which date to be there so travel isn't outrageous.   Shipping (for me) is between 374-408 so that will help with the travel cost. 

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July 17, 2013, 04:25:07 PM
 #3736

Has anyone done any of the math to figure out if it's even worth it to buy a Jupiter now? I've been looking to get into ASIC mining for a while, but I always seem to miss the original announcements for these things by a month or two. As I'm sure you all know, the later you receive the device, the longer it takes to pay itself off. I'd hate to order one now to only have it pay for itself in 5 years. Tongue

Cyrozap, here is one more page that can help you decide if mining is for you.

http://minr.info/
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July 17, 2013, 04:52:43 PM
 #3737

I have often wondered why I would pay $7000 in June to be on shipping day #1 when it seems like I could pay the same $7000 in September to be on shipping day #4.
ujka
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July 17, 2013, 04:58:23 PM
 #3738

 Grin I'll be good even with shipping day #5.
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July 17, 2013, 05:12:36 PM
 #3739

Has anyone done any of the math to figure out if it's even worth it to buy a Jupiter now? I've been looking to get into ASIC mining for a while, but I always seem to miss the original announcements for these things by a month or two. As I'm sure you all know, the later you receive the device, the longer it takes to pay itself off. I'd hate to order one now to only have it pay for itself in 5 years. Tongue

Cyrozap, here is one more page that can help you decide if mining is for you.

http://minr.info/


http://www.coinish.com/calc/#
according to this calculator with difficulty increase prediction x ex a mercury (october shipping) will make ROI in 46 days approx
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July 17, 2013, 05:54:02 PM
 #3740

Yes, I agree they have been doing great things, especially when compared with epic failures like BFL. So far, like I said, they look like the best horse and that is why i paid them and the third party queue trader to be with them. I will also likely pay for their services further and maybe even buy new units.

Regarding the trading queue's, I wish I had not paid as much as I did for my 1-500: I paid because of the RISK. Risk has a cost and KNCminer and a lot of people here do not seem to understand that. Sure in the end they've put an enormous amount of orders in day 1 and 2 thus making everything "fine" (as an aside one has to also ask how much of this was achieved by simply delaying the first units) but when the risk was there some people had to assume that risk or incur in a cost like I did to get rid of it. And that risk came purely due to the surprise KNCminer service of queue trading. I would have been fine as well without losing the few BTC I did to that service but how could I have known???

Now imagine the following: new chip tech comes out that doubles the hash power. KNC puts new products for sale with the new technology. You have money to invest in one of those units but also an "old" unit. What do you do? Sure you can try to get KNC to clarify their position on old unit upgrades but now introduce a few more complications like new unit queues, upgrade queues, hosting offers attached to units, queue trading, "send money in x days" offers, what about upgrades in the new line of products that do not affect the new product queue,... you have to assume unnecessary extra risk coming from KNC trying to be friendly to some clients in your decision and possibly pay extra to third parties to make sure you won't get 3000 THs ahead of you.

Unnecessary loss of money and headaches in an already hard to figure investment!


can u summarize this trading queue business that was going on initially before i was around?

Initially you couldn't pay for any orders, these no money orders were still kept for queue position so if you were the first to make a fake order then you could keep that position in line when they allowed people to pay for their orders.  During the time people made no-money orders and before payments were allowed there were many that sold and traded their reserved queue position for BTC (or LTC according that other guy).  Many thought it would be worth a BTC or 2 to buy a low queue position so that they'd be one of the first to be shipped a unit.  There were some people that happened to register a bunch of no-money orders and so they had extras they could sell usually auction style.
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