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Author Topic: Swedish ASIC miner company kncminer.com  (Read 3011915 times)
erk
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August 01, 2013, 12:42:23 AM
 #4681

Has anyone reached any IMPORTANT conclusion yet? Has anyone proven anything?
I am on page #42 (and still reading) but this will take much time to end this topic.
I am thinking of investing like $10K on their miners but I am a bit afraid.
Worth or not? Real and works as should be? Deliver on time?
Probably. Def real, don't know the rest, but have taped out.
Not to nit pick, but how do you KNOW they have taped out.   I do not know they have taped out.   I have READ a post from KNC that they taped out but then again I read a post last November from Inaba saying that he had just sent a prototype to the lab for certification testing and we all (now) know that is not true.

Who cares, not me that's for sure, all that matters is if they deliver their products on time as promised right?

Trying to put their business under a microscope achieves very little, probably does more harm then good if you force them to waste time responding instead of letting them get on with it.


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August 01, 2013, 12:53:57 AM
 #4682

Not to nit pick, but how do you KNOW they have taped out.   I do not know they have taped out.   I have READ a post from KNC that they taped out but then again I read a post last November from Inaba saying that he had just sent a prototype to the lab for certification testing and we all (now) know that is not true.

That's actually a reasonable point. The truth is we can not be certain that they did tape out, but we estimate based on everything else that happened so far with this company and the backgrounds of the people involved that there is a high probability they are telling the truth. You might be inclined to weigh things differently, but your point is valid - until we see a video of a Jupiter hashing that is (how long KNC? Smiley).
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August 01, 2013, 01:41:21 AM
 #4683

Has anyone reached any IMPORTANT conclusion yet? Has anyone proven anything?

I am on page #42 (and still reading) but this will take much time to end this topic.

I am thinking of investing like $10K on their miners but I am a bit afraid.

Worth or not? Real and works as should be? Deliver on time?

This thread might help: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=231739.80

BTCitcointalk 1%ers manipulate the currency and deceive its user community.
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August 01, 2013, 02:20:50 AM
 #4684

But of course, BFL did something so silly where they apparently failed to do optical proximity correction, and this is, apparently, why their power drain doubled.

Are you saying this as a fact? If so please link source.
No, that's why I qualified the statement with 'apparently,' obviously. However it would explain why their power targets are off by an order of magnitude. And it's one of the more charitable explanations other than outright incompetence.

I don't expect Orsoc to pull such a rookie move.

Bitfury also missed original power goals. You saying hes a rookie too?
They're not off by an order of magnitude. It's not quite in the same ballpark therefore, is it.

A: Rookie mistake.

B: Estimate proved optimistic.




Sorry, as somebody who already executed the one or the other 65nm/40nm/28nm tape-out including direct contact to foundries, I like to mention that BFL and its design enablement partner for layout generation/sign off (Chronicle Tech?) were for sure not responsible for the OPC.

OPC is a task of the mask preparation, which is normally done at the mask house related to the foundry before wafer manufacturing can start. The responsibility for this step has the foundry, which was Globalfoundries in case of BFL.

An order of magnitude? Wink Do you mean 10x? When I remember right, BFL targeted below 1 J/GH and reached 3.2 J/GH.  Should be 3.2x.

Anyway, a missed OPC would result in a very bad yield, maybe even in no yield. The influence at power should not be that strong.

From my point of view, the reason for missing the power target, was the design methodology of the BFL ASIC. It's impossible to run detailed accurate power analysis (e.g. for calculation of a complete hash) during design phase for this kind of design sizes, if you do a full-custom design (hand layout). The reason for this is, that these kind of analysis have to be done at transistor level in case of a full-custom design. I doubt that there is a spice simulator, which can simulate a complete pipelined hash core. If there is one, such a power analysis would take weeks.

So I assume, that BFL did power analysis only for small parts of one hash core and than they tried to scale it up (if they did at all). With respect to power consumption they were a kind of blind till late in the implementation phase. I also think that they realized that they have a problem shortly before tape-out. That was the reason why they change the package from a simple wire-bond QFN to a flip-chip BGA late in 2012 to be able to handle the much higher power consumption.
I will defer to your wisdom and knowledge in this topic.

Quote
It's impossible to run detailed accurate power analysis (e.g. for calculation of a complete hash) during design phase for this kind of design sizes, if you do a full-custom design (hand layout).
I have not read anyone else say they attempted a full custom design. Someone mentioned the old proverb 'you must walk before you run,' the hell were they thinking.

They went for a home-run and struck out at the plate.


Democracy is the original 51% attack.
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August 01, 2013, 02:21:44 AM
 #4685

will be there a trade in advantage for the 2nd generation of your products starting to ship in March 2014?
What I want is not a 'trade in' at all, but rather preferential ordering rights, as a customer who helped them get off the ground in the first gen and believed and trusted in them. I want to keep my old machine still!

Democracy is the original 51% attack.
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August 01, 2013, 02:25:22 AM
 #4686

Will KNC allow individuals who purchased their hardware but are not utilizing the hosting service from byteminr to participate in their mining pool?  

If not, how come?  (ie.  is it a programming nightmare to only allow KNC machines to access the pool and reject other mining hardware?)
There's DDOS issues and the like. Forget about it.

Democracy is the original 51% attack.
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August 01, 2013, 02:34:08 AM
 #4687

Has anyone reached any IMPORTANT conclusion yet? Has anyone proven anything?
I am on page #42 (and still reading) but this will take much time to end this topic.
I am thinking of investing like $10K on their miners but I am a bit afraid.
Worth or not? Real and works as should be? Deliver on time?
Probably. Def real, don't know the rest, but have taped out.
Not to nit pick, but how do you KNOW they have taped out.   I do not know they have taped out.   I have READ a post from KNC that they taped out but then again I read a post last November from Inaba saying that he had just sent a prototype to the lab for certification testing and we all (now) know that is not true.
We don't know for sure, only proof we have is inductive evidence, and their claim that they have taped out jives with other facts, like their access to Orsoc foundry agreements. The claim makes it more likely that they will ship on time, since they've been forthright in every other aspect so far we don't yet have reason to disbelieve them. Judging an investment where information is scarce is all about inductive weightings of the known facts. These guys have already surpassed major hurdles in credibility and meeting in person and getting the prototype device running.

Democracy is the original 51% attack.
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August 01, 2013, 02:36:58 AM
 #4688

Not to nit pick, but how do you KNOW they have taped out.   I do not know they have taped out.   I have READ a post from KNC that they taped out but then again I read a post last November from Inaba saying that he had just sent a prototype to the lab for certification testing and we all (now) know that is not true.

That's actually a reasonable point. The truth is we can not be certain that they did tape out, but we estimate based on everything else that happened so far with this company and the backgrounds of the people involved that there is a high probability they are telling the truth. You might be inclined to weigh things differently, but your point is valid - until we see a video of a Jupiter hashing that is (how long KNC? Smiley).
Imagine they've got chips ordered and PCBs ordered, I assume they'll receive sample chips early on and sample PCBs--perhaps it's not long before they'll have a couple Jupiters to work on in actuality. We know they promised a Jupiter to that couple doing the documentary on living on Bitcoin for a month was it, and they've probably got one for developing the software and whatnot. So, may not be long now before we see a working unit in actuality, before the others are put together even. Is that not so? Are they likely to receive sample chips or not?

Democracy is the original 51% attack.
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August 01, 2013, 02:43:50 AM
 #4689

Not to nit pick, but how do you KNOW they have taped out.   I do not know they have taped out.   I have READ a post from KNC that they taped out but then again I read a post last November from Inaba saying that he had just sent a prototype to the lab for certification testing and we all (now) know that is not true.

That's actually a reasonable point. The truth is we can not be certain that they did tape out, but we estimate based on everything else that happened so far with this company and the backgrounds of the people involved that there is a high probability they are telling the truth. You might be inclined to weigh things differently, but your point is valid - until we see a video of a Jupiter hashing that is (how long KNC? Smiley).
Imagine they've got chips ordered and PCBs ordered, I assume they'll receive sample chips early on and sample PCBs--perhaps it's not long before they'll have a couple Jupiters to work on in actuality. We know they promised a Jupiter to that couple doing the documentary on living on Bitcoin for a month was it, and they've probably got one for developing the software and whatnot. So, may not be long now before we see a working unit in actuality, before the others are put together even. Is that not so? Are they likely to receive sample chips or not?

You don't get "sample chips" you either get a wafer or nothing, the wafer then has to then go off to be cut up into chips and packaged.



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August 01, 2013, 02:44:37 AM
 #4690

Not to nit pick, but how do you KNOW they have taped out.   I do not know they have taped out.   I have READ a post from KNC that they taped out but then again I read a post last November from Inaba saying that he had just sent a prototype to the lab for certification testing and we all (now) know that is not true.

That's actually a reasonable point. The truth is we can not be certain that they did tape out, but we estimate based on everything else that happened so far with this company and the backgrounds of the people involved that there is a high probability they are telling the truth. You might be inclined to weigh things differently, but your point is valid - until we see a video of a Jupiter hashing that is (how long KNC? Smiley).
Imagine they've got chips ordered and PCBs ordered, I assume they'll receive sample chips early on and sample PCBs--perhaps it's not long before they'll have a couple Jupiters to work on in actuality. We know they promised a Jupiter to that couple doing the documentary on living on Bitcoin for a month was it, and they've probably got one for developing the software and whatnot. So, may not be long now before we see a working unit in actuality, before the others are put together even. Is that not so? Are they likely to receive sample chips or not?
You are getting closer to my point.   If this is a complete design (and not something more akin to eASIC where you just design one layer), you would typically get on a shuttle (which would mean you would be saying "shuttle run is schedule and we should get sample chips to test and optimize our design in xx days).   Then you would spend the $800,000 to tape out a 28nm mask......
who knows?   That is what I am saying.   we do not know.    seems credible but who are the "competitors" that are scared if they know their progress?   If I am producing ASICs it does not matter when these guys ship.    It just changes the difficulty.   It does not help my chips come quicker....


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August 01, 2013, 03:19:29 AM
 #4691

  seems credible but who are the "competitors" that are scared if they know their progress?   If I am producing ASICs it does not matter when these guys ship.
That's all true. 

But on the other hand, there are defensive business practices in industries where your net worth goes home at night.  And they involve making sure everyone is very tight lipped, and no one makes an independent decision as to what they should or should not say down at the bar, to the girlfriend, or on the social media.

There's an old saying: Macy's doesn't tell Gimbel's.  Whether or not it mattered.
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August 01, 2013, 03:53:47 AM
 #4692

You are getting closer to my point.   If this is a complete design (and not something more akin to eASIC where you just design one layer), you would typically get on a shuttle (which would mean you would be saying "shuttle run is schedule and we should get sample chips to test and optimize our design in xx days).   Then you would spend the $800,000 to tape out a 28nm mask......
who knows?   That is what I am saying.   we do not know.    seems credible but who are the "competitors" that are scared if they know their progress?   If I am producing ASICs it does not matter when these guys ship.    It just changes the difficulty.   It does not help my chips come quicker....

If an MPW batch had been made, then we would have seen a working prototype well before the production wafer run was ordered, that clearly hasn't happened unless they choose to keep it a tight lipped secret, so one would assume it wont and the first sample will be from the production wafers.

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August 01, 2013, 04:13:56 AM
 #4693

You are getting closer to my point.   If this is a complete design (and not something more akin to eASIC where you just design one layer), you would typically get on a shuttle (which would mean you would be saying "shuttle run is schedule and we should get sample chips to test and optimize our design in xx days).   Then you would spend the $800,000 to tape out a 28nm mask......
who knows?   That is what I am saying.   we do not know.    seems credible but who are the "competitors" that are scared if they know their progress?   If I am producing ASICs it does not matter when these guys ship.    It just changes the difficulty.   It does not help my chips come quicker....

If an MPW batch had been made, then we would have seen a working prototype well before the production wafer run was ordered, that clearly hasn't happened unless they choose to keep it a tight lipped secret, so one would assume it wont and the first sample will be from the production wafers.



Hopefully they're not using ST Micro as their foundary.  ST has a bunch of open MPW space (not utilized by contract customers) on August 7th... on their SOI process.  Hopefully KNC knows enough to avoid SOI for chips of this nature.
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August 01, 2013, 05:33:06 AM
 #4694

I started a new channel for KNC chat @   
Webchat.Freenode.net   
channel:  Kncminer
Please make use of it & help spread the word; Aloha, Eric


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August 01, 2013, 07:32:06 AM
 #4695

KnC, please explain.

удалось выяснить, что у Джоша есть аккаунт в фейсбуке и он там пишет всякое.
например во вторник запостил фотку с каким-то хмырем, которого он называет "найс гай". Джош справа.
Quote
BFL & KnC represent! Sam is a really nice guy!

интерьер страшный
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August 01, 2013, 07:43:45 AM
 #4696

Not to nit pick, but how do you KNOW they have taped out.   I do not know they have taped out.   I have READ a post from KNC that they taped out but then again I read a post last November from Inaba saying that he had just sent a prototype to the lab for certification testing and we all (now) know that is not true.

That's actually a reasonable point. The truth is we can not be certain that they did tape out, but we estimate based on everything else that happened so far with this company and the backgrounds of the people involved that there is a high probability they are telling the truth. You might be inclined to weigh things differently, but your point is valid - until we see a video of a Jupiter hashing that is (how long KNC? Smiley).
Imagine they've got chips ordered and PCBs ordered, I assume they'll receive sample chips early on and sample PCBs--perhaps it's not long before they'll have a couple Jupiters to work on in actuality. We know they promised a Jupiter to that couple doing the documentary on living on Bitcoin for a month was it, and they've probably got one for developing the software and whatnot. So, may not be long now before we see a working unit in actuality, before the others are put together even. Is that not so? Are they likely to receive sample chips or not?
You are getting closer to my point.   If this is a complete design (and not something more akin to eASIC where you just design one layer), you would typically get on a shuttle (which would mean you would be saying "shuttle run is schedule and we should get sample chips to test and optimize our design in xx days).   Then you would spend the $800,000 to tape out a 28nm mask......
who knows?   That is what I am saying.   we do not know.    seems credible but who are the "competitors" that are scared if they know their progress?   If I am producing ASICs it does not matter when these guys ship.    It just changes the difficulty.   It does not help my chips come quicker....


KnC clearly said, that they go directly to a full-mask tape out, no Mulit-Project-Wafer (MPW) run first.
For a die size of > 100 mm2 an MPW run would cost almost the same as an full-mask tape out, because there will be not much area left on the shared reticle for other customers projects (especially if the foundry uses a 4-in-1 Multi-Layer-Reticle for the MPWs).

$800k for a 28nm full-mask set? This is an amazing offer, at which foundry will I get it that cheap? Wink
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August 01, 2013, 07:47:27 AM
 #4697

KnC, please explain.


Whats there to explain? Two asic makers talking/meeting at a bitcoin conference. We've seen it before.

http://i.imgur.com/m36qE00.jpg

Warning about Nitrogensports.eu
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=709114.0
sickpig
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August 01, 2013, 07:48:01 AM
 #4698

KnC, please explain.

удалось выяснить, что у Джоша есть аккаунт в фейсбуке и он там пишет всякое.
например во вторник запостил фотку с каким-то хмырем, которого он называет "найс гай". Джош справа.

BFL & KnC represent! Sam is a really nice guy!


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File date    : 2013:07:30 16:46:50
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August 01, 2013, 07:51:32 AM
 #4699

KnC, please explain.


Whats there to explain? Two asic makers talking/meeting at a bitcoin conference. We've seen it before.

http://i.imgur.com/m36qE00.jpg

does anyone have a confirmed shipment date?

EDIT: is refund possible with KnC?
FUKT
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August 01, 2013, 08:02:47 AM
 #4700

KnC, please explain.

удалось выяснить, что у Джоша есть аккаунт в фейсбуке и он там пишет всякое.
например во вторник запостил фотку с каким-то хмырем, которого он называет "найс гай". Джош справа.
Quote
BFL & KnC represent! Sam is a really nice guy!

интерьер страшный

I think what you mean is 'please explain' what you doing with that scumbag?
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