Swedish ASIC miner company kncminer.com

[bbxx]

why 450 GH/s?
real is 400 GH/s
please stop unicorn dreaming

http://mining.thegenesisblock.com/a/86741a2c2a

have you ever heard talk about conditionals?
bye anyway, I'm going back to sleep now

sure
but 13 PH is possible in march

[1714053688]

1714053688

[Rampion]

http://mining.thegenesisblock.com/a/624b263dcf

that is real price for first september batch buyers from eu.

glad i have sold shares

http://mining.thegenesisblock.com/a/6dd76c6ce6

Mine looks good. The biggest problem with your calculation is you used BTC for price of hardware. 90 BTC.
Just want to know where you got 90 from? Because in-order to have paid 90 BTC, the exchange price would've had to been at $70. It hasn't been at $70 for quite some time now so... dumb or just starting shit?

Wasn't it around 70$ when he ordered?

no, 5 june 2013, 15:53
http://bitcoincharts.com/charts/mtgoxUSD#rg180zczsg2013-06-05zeg2013-06-05ztgSzm1g10zm2g25zv
120$/btc

add VAT 23%
add shipping
add fee

So...

7000 (miner) + 1610 (vat) + 150 (shipping + 50-100 (bitcoin fees?) = 8860 / $120 = 73.8BTC

Nowhere near 90 BTC.

Yep, 70ish BTC is also the figure I'm considering from the very first minute to calculate ROI. I paid in $$, but you know, the right way to calculate the return is to see if you at least recoup the same amount of coins you could have bought with your $$ when you placed the order. The miners are still profitable, but honestly is not looking very good. If they are only a couple of weeks late, it will be hard to reach break-even.

Do not forget that all those calculators consider 100% uptime, which never happens. Calculating 90% to 95% uptime is much more reasonable, I'd recommend to insert 360GH/s as hashrate for a 400GH/s unit in order to factor possible downtime.

Sorry i messed up.
miner was ordered 8.06.2013 with price 108$


7000 (miner) + 1610 (vat) + 150 (shipping + 50-100 (bitcoin fees?) = 8860 / $120 = 73.8BTC

Nowhere near 90 BTC.

7000 (miner) + 1610 (vat) + 150 shipping + 50-100 (bitcoin fees?) + 886$ 10% group buy fee = 9746$ / $108 = 90BTC

Buying such an expensive, proffesional gear, as a consumer really sucks, because you will have to pay VAT and you won't be able to recoup it, which is a profit killer. IMO a $7k miner is not a consumer product at all, it should be bought by a registered company so you can recoup the VAT - or in case the registered company is in the EU, you won't be charged any VAT at all.

you have to pay vat in your domestic country anyway
you can substract it after if you have invoices from your customers

so paid vat upwards - customer sales vat = real vat you have to count

If you are in the EU, not at all. Sweden is an EU company, and any EU registered company is considered an intra-community operator - you can buy and sell goods without any VAT between EU registered companies.

Because of my work I constantly deal with EU companies and I can guarantee you that there is no VAT in anything I buy/sell in the EU. In fact, my KNC miners have 0% VAT on the invoice.

[operador]

Same here

[Miner538]

http://mining.thegenesisblock.com/a/624b263dcf

that is real price for first september batch buyers from eu.

glad i have sold shares

http://mining.thegenesisblock.com/a/6dd76c6ce6

Mine looks good. The biggest problem with your calculation is you used BTC for price of hardware. 90 BTC.
Just want to know where you got 90 from? Because in-order to have paid 90 BTC, the exchange price would've had to been at $70. It hasn't been at $70 for quite some time now so... dumb or just starting shit?

Wasn't it around 70$ when he ordered?

no, 5 june 2013, 15:53
http://bitcoincharts.com/charts/mtgoxUSD#rg180zczsg2013-06-05zeg2013-06-05ztgSzm1g10zm2g25zv
120$/btc

add VAT 23%
add shipping
add fee

So...

7000 (miner) + 1610 (vat) + 150 (shipping + 50-100 (bitcoin fees?) = 8860 / $120 = 73.8BTC

Nowhere near 90 BTC.

Yep, 70ish BTC is also the figure I'm considering from the very first minute to calculate ROI. I paid in $$, but you know, the right way to calculate the return is to see if you at least recoup the same amount of coins you could have bought with your $$ when you placed the order. The miners are still profitable, but honestly is not looking very good. If they are only a couple of weeks late, it will be hard to reach break-even.

Do not forget that all those calculators consider 100% uptime, which never happens. Calculating 90% to 95% uptime is much more reasonable, I'd recommend to insert 360GH/s as hashrate for a 400GH/s unit in order to factor possible downtime.

Sorry i messed up.
miner was ordered 8.06.2013 with price 108$


7000 (miner) + 1610 (vat) + 150 (shipping + 50-100 (bitcoin fees?) = 8860 / $120 = 73.8BTC

Nowhere near 90 BTC.

7000 (miner) + 1610 (vat) + 150 shipping + 50-100 (bitcoin fees?) + 886$ 10% group buy fee = 9746$ / $108 = 90BTC

Buying such an expensive, proffesional gear, as a consumer really sucks, because you will have to pay VAT and you won't be able to recoup it, which is a profit killer. IMO a $7k miner is not a consumer product at all, it should be bought by a registered company so you can recoup the VAT - or in case the registered company is in the EU, you won't be charged any VAT at all.

Tnank god i don't have to pay VAT xD

Some of us will be lucky and some of us wont.

The ones who actually bought the ecquipment will be in for an race in the coming months.

Groupbuyers can only hope their investments dont go gone with the wind.

[Mota]

If you are in the EU, not at all. Sweden is an EU company, and any EU registered company is considered an intra-community operator - you can buy and sell goods without any VAT between EU registered companies.

Because of my work I constantly deal with EU companies and I can guarantee you that there is no VAT in anything I buy/sell in the EU. In fact, my KNC miners have 0% VAT on the invoice.

That is simply not true. You always have to pay VAT in the EU. As to when, that strongly depends on certain factors. Consumers do it immediately, small businessses (in Germany) have to pay until the 10th of the next month and big companies do it at the end of the year.

[bbxx]

Because of my work I constantly deal with EU companies and I can guarantee you that there is no VAT in anything I buy/sell in the EU. In fact, my KNC miners have 0% VAT on the invoice.

but you will have pay this vat anyway in your country
than you substract your icome vat from your customers from same period of time (3 months)

and if you dont have sales that quarter you are doomed.

i had a company i know such things

[600watt]

If you are in the EU, not at all. Sweden is an EU company, and any EU registered company is considered an intra-community operator - you can buy and sell goods without any VAT between EU registered companies.

Because of my work I constantly deal with EU companies and I can guarantee you that there is no VAT in anything I buy/sell in the EU. In fact, my KNC miners have 0% VAT on the invoice.

That is simply not true. You always have to pay VAT in the EU. As to when, that strongly depends on certain factors. Consumers do it immediately, small businessses (in Germany) have to pay until the 10th of the next month and big companies do it at the end of the year.

no. the vat a business has to pay is the vat it GETs FROM customers. a business does not pay vat, it´s the customers. the business only collects it. when you buy soemthing as a business the invoice contains vat, but you deduct this vat from the vat you are collecting from your customers (= no vat). if you buy something from another country that is in the EU for your business, there will not be any vat.

[plasmoske]

Group buys of expensive professional items should be handled by companies, giving away +20% in VAT is just crazy.

Agreed. This guy must be nuts lol. Who would buy from a groupbuy where you would have to pay addition 23%?? Where's the logic in that? None.

And why would the groupbuy starter who has to pay VAT start a groupbuy and is not a registered company?

Mind boggling is all I can say.

... Or a big scam. Start a group buy. Tell everyone that you need to pay VAT. So everyone pays but in reality, they didn't need to.

Now the groupbuyer starter has extra 23% in hand. PROFIT!!  

[sickpig]

why 450 GH/s?
real is 400 GH/s
please stop unicorn dreaming

http://mining.thegenesisblock.com/a/86741a2c2a

have you ever heard talk about conditionals?
bye anyway, I'm going back to sleep now

sure
but 13 PH is possible in march

I guess I have to delay my nap

So you say 13 PH by march 2014, that means more or less 1.9 billion difficulty.

Let's assume for a moment that the total net hashrate remains constant for the entire month, ok?

At electricity rate (USD/kWh) of .15, 800W PSU, 400GH/s, you'll get circa  340 USD

I've already take into consideration 2% pool/group fee.

300 USD seems not so bad in my opinion, isn't it?

as you can see I remove another 40$ supposing that the miner will stay up only for 90% of the time.

I have a question for you, what is your estimate for the April 2014's average total net hash rate? 26 PH, really ?

[noodle73]

If you are in the EU, not at all. Sweden is an EU company, and any EU registered company is considered an intra-community operator - you can buy and sell goods without any VAT between EU registered companies.

Because of my work I constantly deal with EU companies and I can guarantee you that there is no VAT in anything I buy/sell in the EU. In fact, my KNC miners have 0% VAT on the invoice.

That is simply not true. You always have to pay VAT in the EU. As to when, that strongly depends on certain factors. Consumers do it immediately, small businessses (in Germany) have to pay until the 10th of the next month and big companies do it at the end of the year.

no. the vat a business has to pay is the vat it GETs FROM customers. a business does not pay vat, it´s the customers. the business only collects it. when you buy soemthing as a business the invoice contains vat, but you deduct this vat from the vat you are collecting from your customers (= no vat). if you buy something from another country that is in the EU for your business, there will not be any vat.

+1. Mota, I'm afraid you're wrong on this one. Business inputs aren't Vat-able. A business can sell to another business within the EU without charging VAT as long as the recipient business quotes their EU VAT number, but it does have to be a cross border trade to be able to do this.

[robix]

If you are in the EU, not at all. Sweden is an EU company, and any EU registered company is considered an intra-community operator - you can buy and sell goods without any VAT between EU registered companies.

Because of my work I constantly deal with EU companies and I can guarantee you that there is no VAT in anything I buy/sell in the EU. In fact, my KNC miners have 0% VAT on the invoice.

That is simply not true. You always have to pay VAT in the EU. As to when, that strongly depends on certain factors. Consumers do it immediately, small businessses (in Germany) have to pay until the 10th of the next month and big companies do it at the end of the year.

no. the vat a business has to pay is the vat it GETs FROM customers. a business does not pay vat, it´s the customers. the business only collects it. when you buy soemthing as a business the invoice contains vat, but you deduct this vat from the vat you are collecting from your customers (= no vat). if you buy something from another country that is in the EU for your business, there will not be any vat.

+1. Mota, I'm afraid you're wrong on this one. Business inputs aren't Vat-able. A business can sell to another business within the EU without charging VAT as long as the recipient business quotes their EU VAT number, but it does have to be a cross border trade to be able to do this.

So, if you're mining as a business, do you pay VAT on the mined coins?

Edit: That would be the consequence.

[Mota]

If you are in the EU, not at all. Sweden is an EU company, and any EU registered company is considered an intra-community operator - you can buy and sell goods without any VAT between EU registered companies.

Because of my work I constantly deal with EU companies and I can guarantee you that there is no VAT in anything I buy/sell in the EU. In fact, my KNC miners have 0% VAT on the invoice.

That is simply not true. You always have to pay VAT in the EU. As to when, that strongly depends on certain factors. Consumers do it immediately, small businessses (in Germany) have to pay until the 10th of the next month and big companies do it at the end of the year.

no. the vat a business has to pay is the vat it GETs FROM customers. a business does not pay vat, it´s the customers. the business only collects it. when you buy soemthing as a business the invoice contains vat, but you deduct this vat from the vat you are collecting from your customers (= no vat). if you buy something from another country that is in the EU for your business, there will not be any vat.

+1. Mota, I'm afraid you're wrong on this one. Business inputs aren't Vat-able. A business can sell to another business within the EU without charging VAT as long as the recipient business quotes their EU VAT number, but it does have to be a cross border trade to be able to do this.

Sigh... That is true. BUT once you have your miner in hand you have to personally declare said bought miner at your local finance institution and pay the VAT for it in a period of max. 1 month. At least in Germany and with a small business. And anything bigger than a small business would be way more complex tax wise. You would have to pay the tax for your estimated earnings up front and you would have to give a wayyyy more complex financial statement at the end of the year to get it back. AND you can be sure that you would get a tax check (dunno the right word, in German it's Steuerprüfung) if you buy stuff for your company and have no earnings with it.

Edit: That is why I switched to payment with VAT included, in the end the  ~1k€ does not nearly hurt me as much as a finance check

[anykeywhy]

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=286588.0

Readability of OP should be improved now! Smiley
Thank you all again for sharing suggestions and my apologizes again for *firewworks*!!! Grin

Cheers!
-anykeywhy-

[pitkaran]

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=286588.0

Readability of OP should be improved now! Smiley
Thank you all again for sharing suggestions and my apologizes again for *firewworks*!!! Grin

Cheers!
-anykeywhy-

Looked at that thread, thanks for the laughs

[timmmers]

If you are in the EU, not at all. Sweden is an EU company, and any EU registered company is considered an intra-community operator - you can buy and sell goods without any VAT between EU registered companies.

Because of my work I constantly deal with EU companies and I can guarantee you that there is no VAT in anything I buy/sell in the EU. In fact, my KNC miners have 0% VAT on the invoice.

That is simply not true. You always have to pay VAT in the EU. As to when, that strongly depends on certain factors. Consumers do it immediately, small businessses (in Germany) have to pay until the 10th of the next month and big companies do it at the end of the year.

no. the vat a business has to pay is the vat it GETs FROM customers. a business does not pay vat, it´s the customers. the business only collects it. when you buy soemthing as a business the invoice contains vat, but you deduct this vat from the vat you are collecting from your customers (= no vat). if you buy something from another country that is in the EU for your business, there will not be any vat.

+1. Mota, I'm afraid you're wrong on this one. Business inputs aren't Vat-able. A business can sell to another business within the EU without charging VAT as long as the recipient business quotes their EU VAT number, but it does have to be a cross border trade to be able to do this.

So, if you're mining as a business, do you pay VAT on the mined coins?

Edit: That would be the consequence.

You pay VAT on things you PURCHASE, not on things you create. Not all things you purchase attract VAT either, gold and currency for example don't among many other items.
VAT is a way for government to collect tax from the consumer by using businesses to do this. VAT is also 20% not 23% here. If you can claim the VAT back, you can more than likely claim the computer equipment as a capital business expense and get some of the cost back from the tax man too.

[timmmers]

A lot of people look at the calcs and see naff figures and worry that maybe they'll end up with a rig that's late and not going to return their investment.

I bet those same people would feel much worse if they instead had a PRE order BFL 5GHz rig instead? Not delivered? Well this may surprise you , and make you wonder what your KnC rig might attract in , say, December? In hand?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/ButterflyLabs-BitForce-5-GH-s-Jalapeno-Btc-Bitcoin-Miner-Mining-SC-ASIC-Preorder-/171117996618?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item27d76d6a4a

People seem to be keen to pay more than RRP for the damned thing despite all we know. Maybe there's going to be some decent value in the KnC rigs for longer than we imagined?

[plasmoske]

A lot of people look at the calcs and see naff figures and worry that maybe they'll end up with a rig that's late and not going to return their investment.

I bet those same people would feel much worse if they instead had a PRE order BFL 5GHz rig instead? Not delivered? Well this may surprise you , and make you wonder what your KnC rig might attract in , say, December? In hand?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/ButterflyLabs-BitForce-5-GH-s-Jalapeno-Btc-Bitcoin-Miner-Mining-SC-ASIC-Preorder-/171117996618?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item27d76d6a4a

People seem to be keen to pay more than RRP for the damned thing despite all we know. Maybe there's going to be some decent value in the KnC rigs for longer than we imagined?

At the current rate this unit will generate $1,669 in one month!  Don't be left behind when Bitcoin mining goes to the next level

HAHAHA holy misleading.

http://www.alloscomp.com/bitcoin/calculator

> 5GH/s =

per Day   ฿0.03   $3.74
per Week   ฿0.20   $26.19
per Month   ฿0.88   $113.75

Hardly $1669 a month. And that's at current rates. By the time the guy gets the miner, could be months from now, it'll be worthless. LOL everyone who is bidding is just clueless at how bitcoin works. They're probably thinking 'ohshiii a money printing machine. I'm set for life. I can finally retire!'. lol.

[timmmers]

A lot of people look at the calcs and see naff figures and worry that maybe they'll end up with a rig that's late and not going to return their investment.

I bet those same people would feel much worse if they instead had a PRE order BFL 5GHz rig instead? Not delivered? Well this may surprise you , and make you wonder what your KnC rig might attract in , say, December? In hand?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/ButterflyLabs-BitForce-5-GH-s-Jalapeno-Btc-Bitcoin-Miner-Mining-SC-ASIC-Preorder-/171117996618?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item27d76d6a4a

People seem to be keen to pay more than RRP for the damned thing despite all we know. Maybe there's going to be some decent value in the KnC rigs for longer than we imagined?

At the current rate this unit will generate $1,669 in one month!  Don't be left behind when Bitcoin mining goes to the next level

HAHAHA holy misleading.

http://www.alloscomp.com/bitcoin/calculator

> 5GH/s =

per Day   ฿0.03   $3.74
per Week   ฿0.20   $26.19
per Month   ฿0.88   $113.75

Hardly $1669 a month. And that's at current rates. By the time the guy gets the miner, could be months from now, it'll be worthless. LOL everyone who is bidding is just clueless at how bitcoin works. They're probably thinking 'ohshiii a money printing machine. I'm set for life. I can finally retire!'. lol.

Yeah, sad really. Goes to show you that what you're used to in the way of knowledge isn't what's going on elsewhere. The sad part is that although we know that is a con, it's not provable. Some poor bugger is going to think exactly what you said

[noodle73]

But on the bright side, it does mean that there is a residual market for a miner even after the well-informed have calculated that its economic life is over. Someone will want it - and that could make the difference making your money back or not.

[JohanS]

People does not think!

WHY should anyone sell a device which are generating $1600+ per month for about $ 400

make sense, doesn´t it?