Swedish ASIC miner company kncminer.com

[seleme]

Bitcoin companies love preorders thing 

[1713984577]

1713984577

[1713984577]

1713984577

[1713984577]

1713984577

[1713984577]

1713984577

[1713984577]

1713984577

[1713984577]

1713984577

[Bitcoinorama]

The lottery thing might denote simply financial distress so they need to get money in as fast as possible at the cost of reputation. However that doesn't sound promising either...

Ideally in the business world this is usually when the company then offers an IPO/attract investors to finance the company not ask for pre-order money...

They could do, don't think this isn't happening with private equity. You'll know it when it hits the hashrate and unlikely to before. Yifu said so. This is the biggest risk to Bitcoin currently.

KnC for the same reasons as Avalon want to kickstart it with the community and decentralise. It's a better, longer payoff for them as well.

[dan99]

We should see a working prototype of the JUpiter and Saturn Asic Miners before taking orders, now is like no proof except the Mars FPGA which there aren't selling..

[DPoS]

the TandC..  yeah they call it that is creepy as all fuck

https://www.kncminer.com/pages/tandc

of course no link to this until you are just about to finish purchase

anyone else see red flags on this?  The part of the delivery delays which can't trigger cancelation of orders/refunds.. etc and worse like Force Majeure

 11. Force Majeure

11.1 KnCMiner is exempted from fulfilling its obligations under this Agreement and is entitled to cancel the Purchaser’s confirmed orders without any liability,

[tinoki]

the TandC..  yeah they call it that is creepy as all fuck

https://www.kncminer.com/pages/tandc

of course no link to this until you are just about to finish purchase

anyone else see red flags on this?  The part of the delivery delays which can't trigger cancelation of orders/refunds.. etc and worse like Force Majeure

 11. Force Majeure

11.1 KnCMiner is exempted from fulfilling its obligations under this Agreement and is entitled to cancel the Purchaser’s confirmed orders without any liability,

If they cancel they must refund your payment. Would they give us more payment methods like instalments and reservation fee or booking fee before product delivery. Many have order late and don't know when the products will deliver. Now we don't get to see a prototype of the Jupiter or Mars and they want our Money??

[klintay]

i thought the whole point of releasing the FPGA was to build up trust....i just don't know anymore. Giving up 7K for something that *might* be delivered in september.....damn i would of preferred buying the Mars first and then i would at least feel more confident once they had delivered on that!

[flowdab]

I'm sure KNCMINER reads this thread. So what can you all show us today that makes these machines likely to be here in September? Can we get OrSoc to issue a press release stating what phase of chip and board development they are on? I would prefer to hear something from them as I trust their reputation.

[tinoki]

I'm sure KNCMINER reads this thread. So what can you all show us today that makes these machines likely to be here in September? Can we get OrSoc to issue a press release stating what phase of chip and board development they are on? I would prefer to hear something from them as I trust their reputation.

Bro, lets hope they read this thread we want proof and proof and re-assurance and reassurance by way we also want guarantee by September 2013 or else a no questions ask full refund at the discretion of the Buyer.

[DPoS]

I'm sure KNCMINER reads this thread. So what can you all show us today that makes these machines likely to be here in September? Can we get OrSoc to issue a press release stating what phase of chip and board development they are on? I would prefer to hear something from them as I trust their reputation.

Bro, lets hope they read this thread we want proof and proof and re-assurance and reassurance by way we also want guarantee by September 2013 or else a no questions ask full refund at the discretion of the Buyer.

you sir have not read their TandC

[dhenson]

Either buy or don't.  Making demands makes no sense whatsoever.  Does Microsoft listen?  Does Google?  This is a company that is making a product, you are a customer that can choose to purchase it.  That's the extent of your relationship.

[tinoki]

I'm sure KNCMINER reads this thread. So what can you all show us today that makes these machines likely to be here in September? Can we get OrSoc to issue a press release stating what phase of chip and board development they are on? I would prefer to hear something from them as I trust their reputation.

Bro, lets hope they read this thread we want proof and proof and re-assurance and reassurance by way we also want guarantee by September 2013 or else a no questions ask full refund at the discretion of the Buyer.

you sir have not read their TandC

We don't need to read their T & C because we have our own T&C for them and that is Proof

[Phinnaeus Gage]

the TandC..  yeah they call it that is creepy as all fuck

https://www.kncminer.com/pages/tandc

of course no link to this until you are just about to finish purchase

anyone else see red flags on this?  The part of the delivery delays which can't trigger cancelation of orders/refunds.. etc and worse like Force Majeure

 11. Force Majeure

11.1 KnCMiner is exempted from fulfilling its obligations under this Agreement and is entitled to cancel the Purchaser’s confirmed orders without any liability,

And the page is purposely protected from Google robots. Why the fuck would they do that? That was a conscience decision.

The Products are sold for business use only and Purchaser hereby accepts that it has purchased the Products in order to conduct a business.

If not, what? You keep the money?

Are you telling me that a hobbyist is forbidden from ordering? How about a collector of Bitcoin mining rigs?

Seriously, this fuckin' line doesn't even need to be included.

Now, why isn't this page allowed to be indexed by Google or archive.org?

[Phinnaeus Gage]

https://www.kncminer.com/pages/tandc

13.3 Confidentiality

13.3.1  The Purchaser undertakes not to reveal information which the Purchaser receives from KnCMiner and which are KnCMiner trade secrets or otherwise of such nature that it may be considered as confidential information to any third party. This undertaking shall apply during the term of the agreement and thereafter. The Purchaser further undertakes to take necessary measures to prevent confidential information from being disclosed to third parties by the Purchaser’s employees or contractors.

So much for the transferring of queue position, for that information is ONLY privy to the original purchaser that CAN'T be be transferred to a third party.

3. Prices

3.1   The Products are sold at the prices prevailing on the day of order according to the KnCMiner price list at that time. Applicable prices do not include taxes, customs or other applicable costs. The Purchaser is solely liable to pay all taxes, customs or other applicable costs related to purchase of the Products.

That negates the entire VAT conversation in this thread. Even I was convinced that it was included in the price.

[webjoe]

Hmmm.  According to them, they will honor the transfer of queue position.  See here:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=221312.msg2333096#msg2333096

https://www.kncminer.com/pages/tandc

13.3 Confidentiality

13.3.1  The Purchaser undertakes not to reveal information which the Purchaser receives from KnCMiner and which are KnCMiner trade secrets or otherwise of such nature that it may be considered as confidential information to any third party. This undertaking shall apply during the term of the agreement and thereafter. The Purchaser further undertakes to take necessary measures to prevent confidential information from being disclosed to third parties by the Purchaser’s employees or contractors.

So much for the transferring of queue position, for that information is ONLY privy to the original purchaser that CAN'T be be transferred to a third party.

[KS]

Just reposting this from the openday thread:

I took the liberty and quoted the following from PL from a BFL thread:

https://www.paypal.com/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=p/gen/terms-outside#user_responsibilities

Part 4

Prohibited Transactions. You agree that you will not use PayPal to accept payment for illegal products or services, including but not limited to materials that infringe the intellectual property rights of third parties. You will not use the Service, the PayPal website or any of the services offered therein for any unlawful or fraudulent activity. If PayPal (or Wells Fargo, in connection with processing credit card transactions) has reason to believe that you may be engaging in or have engaged in fraudulent, unlawful, or improper activity, including without limitation any violation of any terms and conditions of this Agreement, your access to the Service may be suspended or terminated. Further, if such behavior involved a MasterCard or VISA credit card transaction, it may result in you/your business being prevented from registering for payment acceptance through any payment provider or directly with any bank acquirer operating under license to either the MasterCard or VISA card associations. You will cooperate fully with PayPal Wells Fargo, MasterCard or VISA to investigate any suspected unlawful, fraudulent or improper activity, including but not limited to granting authorized PayPal representatives "guest" or "member" access to any password-protected portions of your website.

You also agree not to use your PayPal account to sell goods with delivery dates delayed more than 20 days from the date of payment, or to sell securities, business opportunities, franchises or multi-level marketing or goods with delivery delayed more than 20 days from the date of payment. You agree not to impersonate a PayPal User or a PayPal representative, or to request that a PayPal customer provide you with their password or other information to access their account.

=================

Highlights for pointing out the obvious...

Sorry what's the point?! I rang Paypal and Barclaycard earlier and they were cool. PayPal covers the first 45 days, Barclaycard takes over after. I was surprised, but they do. I even recorded the fraud dept lady so I have future proof. I asked twice as I was under the impression it ccard consumer protection was negated when using
PayPal, but my card company says they are happy for me to proceed.

EDIT: I've just seen the thread you pulled that from; the BFL bulk chip thread. I had already given my above advice about calling my CCard company and that people shoild call their card company and do their due diligence. PLibre who you 'took the liberty of quoting from a BFL thread' had already acknowledged and agreed with me about CCard chargebacks. If you want to help do some real research or at least read the rest of the thread you were quoting from.

Just to let you know chargebacks and equal liability are two different things. Equal Liability is section 75 of the consumer credit act and gives you legal protection. Chargebacks are not legally binding, you are relying on the good will of the card issuer so if your claim is refused you cannot take them to court.

Chargebacks only work IF there is money to be reclaimed. Your card issuer will petition the bank of the offending company. If the company has spent the money and gone bust your chargeback will fail. Paypal is not covered by chargebacks. Your CC company MAY petition paypal for a chargeback, they may not. You will have to go to the financial ombudsman to resolve any disputes.

I really wouldn't take anything a call centre employee told me as gospel. They are notoriously bad at knowing the law. She may be fired for misleading you but you won't get your money back.

Under section 75 you have legal protection for up to six years but third party entities are not covered.

BTW if you are trying to mitigate tax by buying through a company I would presume you would need a company credit card. These are not covered by the Consumer credit act. For more info read these

http://www.moneysavingexpert.com/shopping/section75-protect-your-purchases
http://www.adviceguide.org.uk/england/consumer_e/consumer_different_ways_of_buying_e/consumer_buying_goods_and_services_on_credit_or_by_debit_card_e/consumer_extra_protection_when_you_buy_on_credit_or_debit_card_e/extra_protection_when_you_buy_with_a_credit_card.htm

TD;LR. I would be very wary about using anything other than direct credit card transactions for any money you aren't prepared to take a punt with. If you think you have any meaningful protection any other way, think again.

[idee2013]

btw one more....my preorder sell thread https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=228174

[maxmint]

With regards to consumer protection, would it be better to pay an order with bank wire of PayPal?

[dan99]

With regards to consumer protection, would it be better to pay an order with bank wire of PayPal?

credit card or paypal is better

Anyway is just 20 hours away to hear some exciting news ...

[maxmint]

With regards to consumer protection, would it be better to pay an order with bank wire of PayPal?

credit card or paypal is better

Why is that?

Anyway is just 20 hours away to hear some exciting news ...

Are you referring to the "Openday" on Wednesday?

[RayG]

Do I understand this correctly - the queue place will be based on pre-order number and not the actual Order # (from 'Order history')?