Swedish ASIC miner company kncminer.com

[DPoS]

Seriously I don't know what the fuck people are expecting here. You ordering a bitcoin prototype miner FFS not a Gucci designer Nvidia graphics card that needs shiny stickers on it.

You are a real troll.

Cheapo cpu cooler fails, board fries. Takes one week to return to Sweden for repairs = major btc loses.

Use highest quality components, to make it less likely any components will fail = professional device.

Hey idiot!!  Lots of 'professional devices' have 'just good enough' components depending on the circumstances

Troll again - you face planted on that one

And there is zero reason to be kind to you trolls anymore.

[1714024483]

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[NoDisco]

I had stayed away for a week whilst you cried about external PSUs and their housing since they released the info.

Funny your "last posts of bitcoinorama" shows you have posted EVERY day in August.

My responses were sensible, clearly as the above demonstrates, yours aren't. Don't bring up hypothetical scenarios of superpowers bombing themselves into oblivion if you want your objections to be taken seriously. Asking them yourself if the only way to resolve this nonsense that's occurred since they released their case design a week ago. Deal with it.

Your 40 or 50 pages of comments on this thread are enough. Stop mega-regulating/PRing this thread. How can you write so much when you don't know a bean more than anyone else?

See you in September! Try and meet some girls!

[Bitcoinorama]

I had stayed away for a week whilst you cried about external PSUs and their housing since they released the info.

Funny your "last posts of bitcoinorama" shows you have posted EVERY day in August.

Funny, your specific issue concerned me in this thread. I haven't said I haven't been active within other threads in this forum, especially with BFL's recent stunt. It's solid gold entertainment.

[DPoS]

If she gives in to that, she's sure to be damaged in some other way - which isn't to say that you're not still getting a bargain!

They're all damaged canth

Yes, it's a matter of figuring out in what way and to what degree. I refer to the well known Hot-Crazy Scale^TM

Classic!!!!!

[KS]

But stop giving legal advice when you don't know the first thing about it.

+1

P.S. KS, if you have any links or info about 2 year consumer rights being trimmed to 1 for businesses, pm me. Thanks

Official EU 2" year warranty": http://ec.europa.eu/consumers/ecc/consumer_topics/buying_goods_services_en.htm
Full brochure: http://ec.europa.eu/archives/publications/booklets/move/64/index_en.htm

Business "consumer rights" are defined in the contract (for KNCMINER contract = T&C). Here's KNCMINER 1 year warranty:
"6.1  KnCMiner warrants that the Products, will perform according to the at all times published specification for a period of twelve (12) months (...)"
https://www.kncminer.com/pages/tandc

The "consumer rights" for businesses are basically that you get what you ordered and that it should work reasonably well (unless there are more exclusion clauses in the contract). If you're not happy, you either bargain with the seller (if you're lucky) or you sue (the rest of the time). A business vs business lawsuit is not the same as consumer vs business one. The consumer is over-protected, while the business is not (and a lot of haggling of the contract will ensue). Anyway, suing is really mostly money lost and time wasted. (Cost of doing business).



BTCOrama could do HIS due diligence and confirm what I said with a lawyer of his choice.


edit: fixed link

[NoDisco]

Funny, your specific issue concerned me in this thread. I haven't said I haven't been active within other threads in this forum, especially with BFL's recent stunt. It's solid gold entertainment.

If I post any more questions in this thread, do not feel "concerned" to address them with your brand of factless "facts". I'd rather speak with other members who don't have the vested interests you do.

You must be in politics or PR, as your answers are empty and don't say anything. They follow a simple rhetorical pattern. Very self assured and you always assume the upper hand, no matter where you stand. Makes you a quality BSer. KNC would be foolish not to employ you.

[rsbriggs]

And maybe all you guys could be stopping stupid "who can pee most far" contest, yes?

[NoDisco]

And maybe all you guys could be stopping stupid "who can pee most far" contest, yes?

And maybe all you Russians could stop stupid discriminating against gays, yes?

[Bitcoinorama]

[kncminer]

Hi,

I see a lot of talk about our choice of case design, in fact about our design choices in general so I thought I would jump in and clear some things up if I can.

We have always tried to make it clear that we aim to provide a machine that gets shipped on time.
 
Time to market is the most critical thing for us. We have a small window of opportunity here with a lot of competition coming out after us with products they claim are better than ours. (well after all they wouldn’t be very good competition if they claimed it would be worse.)

So  yes we have saved time on a few things. We can all agree that the look of the machine is not a top priority. We never said it would be. if it’s a big enough deal we could always put up a poll on our site and ask. Then we would know for our next generation. Sweden has some lovely design houses that would welcome the consult on a global product. This wouldn’t make it hash any faster but it would delay the product shipment for sure. These things would have to be modeled tested and tried etc etc, A far easier solution would be to use off the shelf parts which have a proven track record, over spec them by quite a bit (going back to our margins upon margins upon margins claim) So the decision was an easy one. The first boxes to leave our building will be delivered on time because we haven’t spent even a single meeting debating anything that was not 100% essential. The look is not essential for us at all, most of our customers don’t care and that means we don’t care.

As for the external power supply. Most small devices come with an external power supply ours is just a big devices that needs one. We could make our device bigger and have the power supply inside which would mean a larger shipping box, and a larger package sent to you. That would mean extra shipping costs. It would also mean more engineering of the airflow inside the case. (all fans must point the same way really) This comes under the “waste of time category” a far quicker solution is to let the customer supply and use an external power supply, (like all of the smaller components) Then you can simply have it on the outside of the case so it won’t get in the way of the airflow. Yes it fits on a 19inch rack shelf, There is space behind the unit for a power supply on the shelves (this is what we are doing in our hosting), You are welcome to use cable ties to make it look nice and keep it secure if you want to.
  Another one of our internal rules is that unless its 100% essential we simply don’t spend time on it.

The bottom line is what you are getting from KNC is over engineered and not over designed.  Imagine how upset people would be if we had something that looked great but we were delayed because of the design.

Thanks

Sam

[2112]

Again I will ask. What is "high end components"?

I would imagine he means datacenter grade, just take a look at the chassis for an $8K server.  Lets start with the easy stuff.  First they all have internal power supplies and are 19" wide so they will fit in a datacenter rack without the need for shelves.  

Normally CPUs and GPUs are just passive (fanless) heatsinks which use the case air flow to cool them.  The "case" fans provide the forced air across all components using multiple high CFM (noisy) fans.  Nobody uses "gamer brand" gear.* Air flow is an optimal front to back design (cold aisle to hot aisle).  Cooling is forced flow across the entire width of the chassis (multiple fans in a "line") for simplicity and reliability. On higher end servers cooling is redundant, two fans stacked together to prevent overheat in a fan failure.  Redundant power supplies are also common for the same reason.

I understand time is critical but what happens when your fan or PSU dies in the datacenter?  Ask anyone with colocated servers, "remote hands" time is expensive and so is downtime.  There is a reason why $8K servers are built this way and lets face it a $8K mining rig is pretty much an expensive mission critical server.  

Note I am not saying KNC should make "professional grade" rigs at this time, it is more a thought exercise. Come on people you should be enthusiasts.  Don't you ever just brainstorm about how things can be done better?  I mean Satoshi did and that is why we have Bitcoin.  Still it shouldn't be taken as a bash on KNC, it has taken the server industry a couple decades to come up with optimal configurations.  It just is to show what people in the IT hardware world would consider "professional grade" today.  To their credit KNC has already designed a better cooling system them BFL.  The mere fact that their heatsinks and fans all face the same direction is a significant improvement.  Everytime I look at a photo of a BFL minirig I just cringe.  The IT geek in me wants to rip out all those stupid fans and do it right.




This goes beyond KNC but most "consumer" branded cooling gear is just garbage for gamers to waste money on.  The CFM ratings tend to be inflated and they are often more expensive then "professional grade" equipment.  Delta and the like is the real deal.  Boring, black, ugly, and very effective.

I'm quoting this because this is a definition of waste and overkill in a mining operation.

Couple of years ago I read the report from people who did genetic programming experiments on a large scale. Genetic programming is somewhat like CPU mining: 100% CPU use, 0 disk use, very little RAM, very little network.

Firstly, for the $8k budget one could get approximately 100 off-lease but working office desktop computers. The important part: instead of expensive 19" racks you would use the much cheaper industrial warehouse shelving.

No reliable components are required in any of the particular unit. One can swap the failed parts after failure because there isn't any need to save any data or redo the partial computations.

The major areas for savings are:

1) use interruptible industrial electric power instead of the guaranted power. The cost of power where the utility can ask you to turn off your equipment when they need it more than offsets the losses caused by such interruptions.

2) instead of expensive datacenter real estate use the opportunistic short term leases, e.g. the cafeteria/food court areas in some underutilized office buildings. You can agree to move your farm within one week notice without much expense.

3) almost no capital expenses for the UPS. You need one or two UPSes for the private pool server that you are running and some SNMP monitoring concentrator that keeps you informed about the status of your hardware.

4) you completely don't need the advanced security of the data center. Nobody's going to sneak in and copy your hashes. The only real danger is that somebody physically steals the mining hardware. Such a security level is much cheaper, more akin to the security at the construction site.

5) natural convective cooling instead of the forced air conditioning. On the rare occasion that it is really hot outside just underclock/undervolt your farm.

If the bitcoin mining is going to become a low-margin game then the first ones to lose money and go bankrupt will be the ones who put their mining hardware into the conventional data centers.

Edit: several typos fixed

[WastedLTC]

Thanks

Sam

and thank you...  keep on schedule! 

[ASIC-K]

Thanks Sam, appreciate your response!

[markj113]

forget the case, its just a box.  Its what inside that counts

..especially when delivered on time  

[greenbtc]

Hi,

I see a lot of talk about our choice of case design, in fact about our design choices in general so I thought I would jump in and clear some things up if I can.

We have always tried to make it clear that we aim to provide a machine that gets shipped on time.
 
Time to market is the most critical thing for us. We have a small window of opportunity here with a lot of competition coming out after us with products they claim are better than ours. (well after all they wouldn’t be very good competition if they claimed it would be worse.)

So  yes we have saved time on a few things. We can all agree that the look of the machine is not a top priority. We never said it would be. if it’s a big enough deal we could always put up a poll on our site and ask. Then we would know for our next generation. Sweden has some lovely design houses that would welcome the consult on a global product. This wouldn’t make it hash any faster but it would delay the product shipment for sure. These things would have to be modeled tested and tried etc etc, A far easier solution would be to use off the shelf parts which have a proven track record, over spec them by quite a bit (going back to our margins upon margins upon margins claim) So the decision was an easy one. The first boxes to leave our building will be delivered on time because we haven’t spent even a single meeting debating anything that was not 100% essential. The look is not essential for us at all, most of our customers don’t care and that means we don’t care.

As for the external power supply. Most small devices come with an external power supply ours is just a big devices that needs one. We could make our device bigger and have the power supply inside which would mean a larger shipping box, and a larger package sent to you. That would mean extra shipping costs. It would also mean more engineering of the airflow inside the case. (all fans must point the same way really) This comes under the “waste of time category” a far quicker solution is to let the customer supply and use an external power supply, (like all of the smaller components) Then you can simply have it on the outside of the case so it won’t get in the way of the airflow. Yes it fits on a 19inch rack shelf, There is space behind the unit for a power supply on the shelves (this is what we are doing in our hosting), You are welcome to use cable ties to make it look nice and keep it secure if you want to.
  Another one of our internal rules is that unless its 100% essential we simply don’t spend time on it.

The bottom line is what you are getting from KNC is over engineered and not over designed.  Imagine how upset people would be if we had something that looked great but we were delayed because of the design.

Thanks

Sam

Thanks for your honesty Sam!

[Bitcoinorama]

Again I will ask. What is "high end components"?

I would imagine he means datacenter grade, just take a look at the chassis for an $8K server.  Lets start with the easy stuff.  First they all have internal power supplies and are 19" wide so they will fit in a datacenter rack without the need for shelves.  

Normally CPUs and GPUs are just passive (fanless) heatsinks which use the case air flow to cool them.  The "case" fans provide the forced air across all components using multiple high CFM (noisy) fans.  Nobody uses "gamer brand" gear.* Air flow is an optimal front to back design (cold aisle to hot aisle).  Cooling is forced flow across the entire width of the chassis (multiple fans in a "line") for simplicity and reliability. On higher end servers cooling is redundant, two fans stacked together to prevent overheat in a fan failure.  Redundant power supplies are also common for the same reason.

I understand time is critical but what happens when your fan or PSU dies in the datacenter?  Ask anyone with colocated servers, "remote hands" time is expensive and so is downtime.  There is a reason why $8K servers are built this way and lets face it a $8K mining rig is pretty much an expensive mission critical server.  

Note I am not saying KNC should make "professional grade" rigs at this time, it is more a thought exercise. Come on people you should be enthusiasts.  Don't you ever just brainstorm about how things can be done better?  I mean Satoshi did and that is why we have Bitcoin.  Still it shouldn't be taken as a bash on KNC, it has taken the server industry a couple decades to come up with optimal configurations.  It just is to show what people in the IT hardware world would consider "professional grade" today.  To their credit KNC has already designed a better cooling system them BFL.  The mere fact that their heatsinks and fans all face the same direction is a significant improvement.  Everytime I look at a photo of a BFL minirig I just cringe.  The IT geek in me wants to rip out all those stupid fans and do it right.




This goes beyond KNC but most "consumer" branded cooling gear is just garbage for gamers to waste money on.  The CFM ratings tend to be inflated and they are often more expensive then "professional grade" equipment.  Delta and the like is the real deal.  Boring, black, ugly, and very effective.

I'm quoting this because this is a definition of waste and overkill in a mining operation.

Couple of years ago I read the report from people who did genetic programming experiments on a large scale. Genetic programming is somewhat like CPU mining: 100% CPU use, 0 disk use, very little RAM, very little network.

Firstly, for the $8k budget one could get approximately 100 off-lease but working office desktop computers. The important part instead of expensive 19" racks you would use the much cheaper industrial warehouse shelving.

No reliable components are required in any of the particular unit. One can swap the failed parts after failure because there isn't any need to save any data or redo the partial computations.

The major areas for savings are:

1) use interruptible industrial electric power instead of the guaranted power. The cost of power where the utility can ask you to turn off your equipment when they need it more than offset the losses caused by such interruptions.

2) instead of expensive datacenter real estate use the opportunistic short term leases, e.g. the cafeteria/food court areas in underutilized office buildings. You can agree to move your farm within one week notice without much expense.

3) almost no capital expenses for the UPS. You need one or two UPSes for the private pool server that you are running and some SNMP monitoring concentrator that keeps you informed about the status of your hardware.

4) you completely don't need the advanced security of the data center. Nobody's going to sneak in and copy your hashes. The only real danger is that somebody physically steals the mining hardware. Such a security level is much cheaper, more akin to the security at the construction site.

5) natural convective cooling instead of the forced air conditioning. On the rare occasion that it is really hot outside just underclocl/undervolt your farm.

If the bitcoin mining is going to become a low-margin game then the first ones to loose money and go bankrupt will be the ones who put their mining hardware into the conventional data centers.

The answer is a resurgence of late 80's arcade halls stealthily coin mining away. Get people to pay for your electricity and hash for free!!

[DPoS]

Jump in trolls, jump in

[Phoenix1969]

The external PSU is weird though.

It is. Any reason they cant make the case a bit bigger  

Why would they? So anal peeps could worry about stuffing an ATX inside it, when the whole thing is getting trashed within a year?

[frankenmint]

Hi,

I see a lot of talk about our choice of case design, in fact about our design choices in general so I thought I would jump in and clear some things up if I can.

We have always tried to make it clear that we aim to provide a machine that gets shipped on time.
 
Time to market is the most critical thing for us. We have a small window of opportunity here with a lot of competition coming out after us with products they claim are better than ours. (well after all they wouldn’t be very good competition if they claimed it would be worse.)

So  yes we have saved time on a few things. We can all agree that the look of the machine is not a top priority. We never said it would be. if it’s a big enough deal we could always put up a poll on our site and ask. Then we would know for our next generation. Sweden has some lovely design houses that would welcome the consult on a global product. This wouldn’t make it hash any faster but it would delay the product shipment for sure. These things would have to be modeled tested and tried etc etc, A far easier solution would be to use off the shelf parts which have a proven track record, over spec them by quite a bit (going back to our margins upon margins upon margins claim) So the decision was an easy one. The first boxes to leave our building will be delivered on time because we haven’t spent even a single meeting debating anything that was not 100% essential. The look is not essential for us at all, most of our customers don’t care and that means we don’t care.

As for the external power supply. Most small devices come with an external power supply ours is just a big devices that needs one. We could make our device bigger and have the power supply inside which would mean a larger shipping box, and a larger package sent to you. That would mean extra shipping costs. It would also mean more engineering of the airflow inside the case. (all fans must point the same way really) This comes under the “waste of time category” a far quicker solution is to let the customer supply and use an external power supply, (like all of the smaller components) Then you can simply have it on the outside of the case so it won’t get in the way of the airflow. Yes it fits on a 19inch rack shelf, There is space behind the unit for a power supply on the shelves (this is what we are doing in our hosting), You are welcome to use cable ties to make it look nice and keep it secure if you want to.
  Another one of our internal rules is that unless its 100% essential we simply don’t spend time on it.

The bottom line is what you are getting from KNC is over engineered and not over designed.  Imagine how upset people would be if we had something that looked great but we were delayed because of the design.

Thanks

Sam

                   

[BBazaar]

Hi,

I see a lot of talk about our choice of case design, in fact about our design choices in general so I thought I would jump in and clear some things up if I can.

We have always tried to make it clear that we aim to provide a machine that gets shipped on time.
 
Time to market is the most critical thing for us. We have a small window of opportunity here with a lot of competition coming out after us with products they claim are better than ours. (well after all they wouldn’t be very good competition if they claimed it would be worse.)

So  yes we have saved time on a few things. We can all agree that the look of the machine is not a top priority. We never said it would be. if it’s a big enough deal we could always put up a poll on our site and ask. Then we would know for our next generation. Sweden has some lovely design houses that would welcome the consult on a global product. This wouldn’t make it hash any faster but it would delay the product shipment for sure. These things would have to be modeled tested and tried etc etc, A far easier solution would be to use off the shelf parts which have a proven track record, over spec them by quite a bit (going back to our margins upon margins upon margins claim) So the decision was an easy one. The first boxes to leave our building will be delivered on time because we haven’t spent even a single meeting debating anything that was not 100% essential. The look is not essential for us at all, most of our customers don’t care and that means we don’t care.

As for the external power supply. Most small devices come with an external power supply ours is just a big devices that needs one. We could make our device bigger and have the power supply inside which would mean a larger shipping box, and a larger package sent to you. That would mean extra shipping costs. It would also mean more engineering of the airflow inside the case. (all fans must point the same way really) This comes under the “waste of time category” a far quicker solution is to let the customer supply and use an external power supply, (like all of the smaller components) Then you can simply have it on the outside of the case so it won’t get in the way of the airflow. Yes it fits on a 19inch rack shelf, There is space behind the unit for a power supply on the shelves (this is what we are doing in our hosting), You are welcome to use cable ties to make it look nice and keep it secure if you want to.
  Another one of our internal rules is that unless its 100% essential we simply don’t spend time on it.

The bottom line is what you are getting from KNC is over engineered and not over designed.  Imagine how upset people would be if we had something that looked great but we were delayed because of the design.

Thanks

Sam

I really like this no waste attitude.  This is why I preordered from you guys.  Thanks Sam.