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r1senfa17h
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November 30, 2013, 05:10:21 PM |
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I don't think you understand. What I described may have a lower upside potential than simply purchasing bitcoin, but I also have a significantly lower downside potential. As long as KnC offers refunds (which is key), then I have a low chance of losing any USD.
Furthermore, it doesn't matter if I paid in USD or BTC, since it would have costed me the same amount of USD to buy the BTC I needed to purchase the Neptunes at the moment I needed.
The amount of time KnC has my money is relatively trivial while less than 6 months. Perhaps if this investment was a larger part of my portfolio I'd care.
I understand your logic but as i said if you want to hedge against the worst case scenario you don't have to buy a miner from KnCWhat you say is like selling now bitcoins that worth 10000$ and then wait for 5 months. If in the end of those 5 months bitcoin still holds then you 'll buy back bitcoins but probably in a much higher price. If bitcoin collapses your hedging strategy saved you from the worst case scenario. Got it now? The refund from KnC don't introdute a unique hedging strategy against bitcoin collpasing.You're right, there is nothing unique about what I'm saying. I'm not sure where you got the idea that this was unique. I'm obviously having trouble understanding what you're trying to explain though. Why would I buy back BTC after 5 months? I would have a miner generating coins for me at the higher value and wouldn't need to buy back in. Let's suppose I'm able to mine 10 coins per Neptune, even though I spent 12. If the coins are valued at 1.2x what they were when I purchased the miner, I will profit in USD. If they are less than that, I could refund my order and buy the same number of bitcoins I started with or more. |
1N3o5Kyvb4iECiJ3WKScKY8xTVXxf1hMvA
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The grue lurks in the darkest places of the earth. Its favorite diet is adventurers, but its insatiable appetite is tempered by its fear of light. No grue has ever been seen by the light of day, and few have survived its fearsome jaws to tell the tale.
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OmegaNemesis28
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November 30, 2013, 05:12:43 PM |
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I didn't want a phone call...a fucking email would have been nice though. 1st I heard was on this forum, hours after the things were sold. I bought a KNC machine mainly based on it's ability to be upgraded
I got an email. Did you not sign up for their email newsletter? Yeah, Emails were sent..got one here too. ditto. i got one as well. Same. I only knew because of the email. I'll give KNC that much. But they didn't give any notice prior. They just opened up and immediately closed down. i was pissed when they did this little notice thing with the upgrades too, but i kind of get it now. if they gave everyone a couple weeks notice and told everyone "order opens november 26th" the site would probably crash and cause a ton of issues, i guess they have to give little notice as to not flood the order system? does that make sense? Yeah, but at least the upgrades they did give some prior notice. Even a single day's notice would've been enough for me to at least initiate with my bank, and I'm sure others too. Even if I wanted to pay full up in BTC upfront, it would've taken a day to get my cash into the market again. And on Thanksgiving of all the times to do it with people here in the US nonetheless! That sucked big time! I just wish they would either honor my order or open up again for existing customers. I still haven't been able to cancel the wire I scheduled. My bank's branch won't let me until later today. |
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lkthomas
Newbie
 Offline
Activity: 35
Merit: 0
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November 30, 2013, 05:18:22 PM |
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I don't think you understand. What I described may have a lower upside potential than simply purchasing bitcoin, but I also have a significantly lower downside potential. As long as KnC offers refunds (which is key), then I have a low chance of losing any USD.
Furthermore, it doesn't matter if I paid in USD or BTC, since it would have costed me the same amount of USD to buy the BTC I needed to purchase the Neptunes at the moment I needed.
The amount of time KnC has my money is relatively trivial while less than 6 months. Perhaps if this investment was a larger part of my portfolio I'd care.
I understand your logic but as i said if you want to hedge against the worst case scenario you don't have to buy a miner from KnCWhat you say is like selling now bitcoins that worth 10000$ and then wait for 5 months. If in the end of those 5 months bitcoin still holds then you 'll buy back bitcoins but probably in a much higher price. If bitcoin collapses your hedging strategy saved you from the worst case scenario. Got it now? The refund from KnC don't introdute a unique hedging strategy against bitcoin collpasing.You're right, there is nothing unique about what I'm saying. I'm not sure where you got the idea that this was unique. I'm obviously having trouble understanding what you're trying to explain though. Why would I buy back BTC after 5 months? I would have a miner generating coins for me at the higher value and wouldn't need to buy back in. Let's suppose I'm able to mine 10 coins per Neptune, even though I spent 12. If the coins are valued at 1.2x what they were when I purchased the miner, I will profit in USD. If they are less than that, I could refund my order and buy the same number of bitcoins I started with or more. well said. I also have same value in my mind. The best thing of course new miner could generate more you spent and the value itself increase at the same time. It would be more than double if that would be the case. I am betting this would happen. one question, what's that KnC refund policy about?! can you send back the miner and ask for same amount of BTC back in terms of USD?! |
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Phoenix1969
Legendary
Offline
Activity: 938
Merit: 1000
LIR DEV
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November 30, 2013, 05:22:43 PM
Last edit: November 30, 2013, 05:45:04 PM by Phoenix1969 |
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I don't think you understand. What I described may have a lower upside potential than simply purchasing bitcoin, but I also have a significantly lower downside potential. As long as KnC offers refunds (which is key), then I have a low chance of losing any USD.
Furthermore, it doesn't matter if I paid in USD or BTC, since it would have costed me the same amount of USD to buy the BTC I needed to purchase the Neptunes at the moment I needed.
The amount of time KnC has my money is relatively trivial while less than 6 months. Perhaps if this investment was a larger part of my portfolio I'd care.
I understand your logic but as i said if you want to hedge against the worst case scenario you don't have to buy a miner from KnCWhat you say is like selling now bitcoins that worth 10000$ and then wait for 5 months. If in the end of those 5 months bitcoin still holds then you 'll buy back bitcoins but probably in a much higher price. If bitcoin collapses your hedging strategy saved you from the worst case scenario. Got it now? The refund from KnC don't introdute a unique hedging strategy against bitcoin collpasing.You're right, there is nothing unique about what I'm saying. I'm not sure where you got the idea that this was unique. I'm obviously having trouble understanding what you're trying to explain though. Why would I buy back BTC after 5 months? I would have a miner generating coins for me at the higher value and wouldn't need to buy back in. Let's suppose I'm able to mine 10 coins per Neptune, even though I spent 12. If the coins are valued at 1.2x what they were when I purchased the miner, I will profit in USD. If they are less than that, I could refund my order and buy the same number of bitcoins I started with or more. well said. I also have same value in my mind. The best thing of course new miner could generate more you spent and the value itself increase at the same time. It would be more than double if that would be the case. I am betting this would happen. one question, what's that KnC refund policy about?! can you send back the miner and ask for same amount of BTC back in terms of USD?! NO, refunds are based on fiat equivalent, just as the purchase was IMHO refunds are foolish, given the appreciation of the units themselves... If you bought Gold @ spot price, and it increased in value..would you ask for a refund on the original purchase? KNC units are like "Unobtainium"!  Most who bought October first run units, have long since recovered their BTC... selling now is an outrageous gain on them..... especially when applied to future units.... ...but what do I know.... I'm just an Ewok. On that note...I could really use an update on units shipped...with the account page messed up, I don't know if my two Novembers have been shipped yet or not... they were "In Progress" several days ago...now show just "Paid", so no tellin'... could be on the way already, but no email from UPS..... wondering... |
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helmax
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November 30, 2013, 05:40:53 PM |
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why people think mining is chicken gold eggs
if trading much better
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looking job
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r1senfa17h
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November 30, 2013, 05:43:55 PM |
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I don't think you understand. What I described may have a lower upside potential than simply purchasing bitcoin, but I also have a significantly lower downside potential. As long as KnC offers refunds (which is key), then I have a low chance of losing any USD.
Furthermore, it doesn't matter if I paid in USD or BTC, since it would have costed me the same amount of USD to buy the BTC I needed to purchase the Neptunes at the moment I needed.
The amount of time KnC has my money is relatively trivial while less than 6 months. Perhaps if this investment was a larger part of my portfolio I'd care.
I understand your logic but as i said if you want to hedge against the worst case scenario you don't have to buy a miner from KnCWhat you say is like selling now bitcoins that worth 10000$ and then wait for 5 months. If in the end of those 5 months bitcoin still holds then you 'll buy back bitcoins but probably in a much higher price. If bitcoin collapses your hedging strategy saved you from the worst case scenario. Got it now? The refund from KnC don't introdute a unique hedging strategy against bitcoin collpasing.You're right, there is nothing unique about what I'm saying. I'm not sure where you got the idea that this was unique. I'm obviously having trouble understanding what you're trying to explain though. Why would I buy back BTC after 5 months? I would have a miner generating coins for me at the higher value and wouldn't need to buy back in. Let's suppose I'm able to mine 10 coins per Neptune, even though I spent 12. If the coins are valued at 1.2x what they were when I purchased the miner, I will profit in USD. If they are less than that, I could refund my order and buy the same number of bitcoins I started with or more. well said. I also have same value in my mind. The best thing of course new miner could generate more you spent and the value itself increase at the same time. It would be more than double if that would be the case. I am betting this would happen. one question, what's that KnC refund policy about?! can you send back the miner and ask for same amount of BTC back in terms of USD?! NO, refunds are based on fiat equivalent, just as the purchase was IMHO refunds are foolish, given the appreciation of the units themselves... If you bought Gold @ spot price, and it increased in value..would you ask for a refund on the original purchase? KNC units are like "Unobtainium"! Most who bought October first run units, have long since recovered their BTC... selling now is an outrageous gain on them..... especially when applied to future units.... ...but what do I know.... I'm just an Ewok. No one who understands how Bitpay works actually believes companies should issue refunds in BTC. I'm betting that you're right, which is why I'm not selling by upgraded Jupiter - even at $20k. |
1N3o5Kyvb4iECiJ3WKScKY8xTVXxf1hMvA
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Phoenix1969
Legendary
Offline
Activity: 938
Merit: 1000
LIR DEV
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November 30, 2013, 05:46:17 PM |
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why people think mining is chicken gold eggs
if trading much better
Agreed, if you're good at it.... I'm not! Admittedly...I always lose out trading! |
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lkthomas
Newbie
Offline
Activity: 35
Merit: 0
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November 30, 2013, 05:46:43 PM |
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I don't think you understand. What I described may have a lower upside potential than simply purchasing bitcoin, but I also have a significantly lower downside potential. As long as KnC offers refunds (which is key), then I have a low chance of losing any USD.
Furthermore, it doesn't matter if I paid in USD or BTC, since it would have costed me the same amount of USD to buy the BTC I needed to purchase the Neptunes at the moment I needed.
The amount of time KnC has my money is relatively trivial while less than 6 months. Perhaps if this investment was a larger part of my portfolio I'd care.
I understand your logic but as i said if you want to hedge against the worst case scenario you don't have to buy a miner from KnCWhat you say is like selling now bitcoins that worth 10000$ and then wait for 5 months. If in the end of those 5 months bitcoin still holds then you 'll buy back bitcoins but probably in a much higher price. If bitcoin collapses your hedging strategy saved you from the worst case scenario. Got it now? The refund from KnC don't introdute a unique hedging strategy against bitcoin collpasing.You're right, there is nothing unique about what I'm saying. I'm not sure where you got the idea that this was unique. I'm obviously having trouble understanding what you're trying to explain though. Why would I buy back BTC after 5 months? I would have a miner generating coins for me at the higher value and wouldn't need to buy back in. Let's suppose I'm able to mine 10 coins per Neptune, even though I spent 12. If the coins are valued at 1.2x what they were when I purchased the miner, I will profit in USD. If they are less than that, I could refund my order and buy the same number of bitcoins I started with or more. well said. I also have same value in my mind. The best thing of course new miner could generate more you spent and the value itself increase at the same time. It would be more than double if that would be the case. I am betting this would happen. one question, what's that KnC refund policy about?! can you send back the miner and ask for same amount of BTC back in terms of USD?! NO, refunds are based on fiat equivalent, just as the purchase was IMHO refunds are foolish, given the appreciation of the units themselves... If you bought Gold @ spot price, and it increased in value..would you ask for a refund on the original purchase? KNC units are like "Unobtainium"! Most who bought October first run units, have long since recovered their BTC... selling now is an outrageous gain on them..... especially when applied to future units.... ...but what do I know.... I'm just an Ewok. No one who understands how Bitpay works actually believes companies should issue refunds in BTC. I'm betting that you're right, which is why I'm not selling by upgraded Jupiter - even at $20k. my guess, $20K is rubbish. You might double it within 2 years time! |
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jelin1984
Legendary
Offline
Activity: 2408
Merit: 1004
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November 30, 2013, 05:55:24 PM |
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Relax
Knc will be out again the 20nm miner
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Searing
Copper Member
Legendary
Offline
Activity: 2898
Merit: 1464
Clueless!
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November 30, 2013, 06:04:26 PM |
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i really wish KNC would answer their phones once in a awhile....
that boat has sailed..it is like they just waved the white flag and bailed on voice support...I just get an answering machine in Swedish....all it does is make me doubly annoyed in that no longer can you call them voice...and I suddenly want to have a Swedish girlfriend .... |
Old Style Legacy Plug & Play BBS System. Get it from www.synchro.net. Updated 1/1/2021. It also works with Windows 10 and likely 11 and allows 16 bit DOS game doors on the same Win 10 Machine in Multi-Node! Five Minute Install! Look it over it uninstalls just as fast, if you simply want to look it over. Freeware! Full BBS System! It is a frigging hoot!:) |
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Phoenix1969
Legendary
Offline
Activity: 938
Merit: 1000
LIR DEV
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November 30, 2013, 06:20:24 PM
Last edit: November 30, 2013, 06:59:04 PM by Phoenix1969 |
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i really wish KNC would answer their phones once in a awhile....
that boat has sailed..it is like they just waved the white flag and bailed on voice support...I just get an answering machine in Swedish....all it does is make me doubly annoyed in that no longer can you call them voice...and I suddenly want to have a Swedish girlfriend .... I tried during the account fiasco... and didn't get thru for the first time in half a dozen calls over the past few months... but others did... Cypher got thu.. and others... just when the answering machine is on, the line is either busy, or they are closed... You gotta know by now there are hundreds of people calling every hour trying to talk to KNC... and during a incident like that...thousands... It's like trying to be caller #9 on Santana Tickets... lol |
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lkthomas
Newbie
Offline
Activity: 35
Merit: 0
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November 30, 2013, 06:30:46 PM |
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why people think mining is chicken gold eggs
if trading much better
Agreed, if you're good at it.... I'm not! Admittedly...I always lose out trading! that's the problem. I did a lot of stocks trading and forex, none of them turn out any good. So I decide to use other way around to make money like mining. |
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opentoe
Legendary
Offline
Activity: 1274
Merit: 1000
Personal text my ass....
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November 30, 2013, 07:03:38 PM |
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I was lucky to grab 4 upgrade modules but that was a dick move by KNC to not let all Saturn owners upgrade. They basically opened the door to any customer Jupiter owner or not and allowed them to upgrade. I bought two Saturn's so I felt I was in the right to be able to buy upgrade modules. For some reason in my gut I felt it was going to be fast sell so I never moved to fast during an online purchase. And KNC had a 3 limit per purchase. So I had to make two purchases. One for 3 modules and one for 1 module. I'm not sure how I was able to make two purchases while others weren't able to make any, but my Internet connection pipe is huge and bitpay didn't give me any problems at all. I guess I'm just venting my experience.
I broke even about two weeks ago and everything I make now is profit. When I get .5 coin I usually just sell it and deposit it into my bank. Do you guys think I should actually be accumulating or saving the bitcoin? We all remember when BTC was $20, hell, I remember when it was $15 when I joined Silk Road...yep that drug dealing site. Can BTC sustain itself at the price it is now, it is over $1200 right now from Mt.Gox. I've seen rises and falls before being around for such a while but never at these prices or this long. I told myself it would bust a while ago but it kept going up up up up. I don't know. It is hard to save bitcoin when cash is king. The way I have been looking at it is no matter what the price of BTC is be it $1200 or $20 when I cash out that's money I didn't have to begin with. Of course I would love to maximize the reward but I've never been "lucky" with money since I'm not really a greedy person and spend/waste it foolishly. I think if I had $10k of BTC around when the Neptunes were offered, I don't think I would have taken the bait. What's funny about all this is the only thing I ever spent $10k or more on something was my car and my house. I really don't want to have a bitcoin miner 3rd on my list at that price. Damn, to hold onto coin at $1200 or sell. What do you guys do with the coin you make with your KNC rigs? Half save, half cash out?
Also, yea, Eligius is having serious issues. Sorry Wizkid, but I've had nothing but problems with your pool and I'm glad to pay the GUILD a fee. You gotta get yourself a new dedicated box or a high powered VPS and put some good old fashion security on that guy. None of this ~wizkid folder redirect crap. Sorry, I'm in a mood today.
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matthewh3
Legendary
Offline
Activity: 1372
Merit: 1003
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November 30, 2013, 07:13:27 PM |
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i really wish KNC would answer their phones once in a awhile....
that boat has sailed..it is like they just waved the white flag and bailed on voice support...I just get an answering machine in Swedish....all it does is make me doubly annoyed in that no longer can you call them voice...and I suddenly want to have a Swedish girlfriend .... It's weekend and it has been stated before that the office staff do actually work only office hours funny enough. It's only the engineers who work on caffeine intravenous drips. |
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Phoenix1969
Legendary
Offline
Activity: 938
Merit: 1000
LIR DEV
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November 30, 2013, 07:26:34 PM |
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Opentoe.... +1 on everything... except I didn't actually want to cash out anything, but I need to cover a few bills... (shipping, electric, PSU's..and a few extra for myself...)
*Hope Wizkid can pull it together.... I love his pool! I'm comin' back Wizkid....rest assure.... with megapower, so get that puppy goin'!
He could probably use a donation or two about now....
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xstr8guy
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November 30, 2013, 07:35:06 PM |
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Am I the only one being driven crazy by "Juniper"?! FFS, it "Jupiter"... that's a "T" not an "N". And now we have "Naptunes".  Is that a cross between Napster and iTunes or an ASIC miner? |
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xstr8guy
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November 30, 2013, 07:56:03 PM |
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why people think mining is chicken gold eggs
if trading much better
For the last time... trading is no guarantee of success. Just as many people lose money as gain money. Buy and hold only works if the value of BTC goes up during the time before you sell. And if you buy and hold forever (which everyone who posts this same bullshit over and over claims to do) then you never gain unless you use your BTC to pay your bills and buy groceries. THE END! Now go buy some seriously overpriced BTC and "hold". I'm going to go check my bitcoin wallet to see if the coins I mined 2 months ago have increased in value again today. |
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CYPER
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November 30, 2013, 08:27:48 PM |
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I tried during the account fiasco... and didn't get thru for the first time in half a dozen calls over the past few months... but others did... Cypher got thu.. and others... just when the answering machine is on, the line is either busy, or they are closed...
I get through after 40-50 attempts I keep redialling and redialling... http://www.localphone.com/call/sweden - only £0.005 to Sweden. |
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jonoiv
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November 30, 2013, 08:29:10 PM |
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Am I the only one being driven crazy by "Juniper"?! FFS, it "Jupiter"... that's a "T" not an "N". And now we have "Naptunes". Is that a cross between Napster and iTunes or an ASIC miner? Yes i used my Juniper to mine a bottle of Gin! difficulty was 40%, 6 shots for full confirmation of drunkenness |
Signature for hire!
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AussieHash
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November 30, 2013, 08:58:07 PM |
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well said. Very often people looking at mining business is a short term, 2 weeks business.
It took me 7 months to break even when BTC at 25 dollar. Then price jump up and my asset increase by 5 times, it took almost 1 year to get to this point right now.
Guys, consider this is a long term investment and effort. If you want to get rich quick, go back to day trade instead of mining.
You really don't get it. It is how many bitcoins your miner will ever make against how many bitcoins you could have bought instead of the miner. Btc value in dollars is irrelevant. As someone who clearly understands that one is likely to end up with more BTC by simply purchasing them than mining them in the end, let me explain why I choose to mine. It's called hedging your bets. Effectively, I've sold my BTC for $845/each when I purchased the Neptunes. If BTC price collapses, I can ask for a refund in US dollars (Remember, KnC never receives any BTC through Bitpay and will always refund in USD). In this scenario, I will not lose any USD. The highest risk in this example is that KnC refuses to refund. In the event that BTC price continues to increase (my hope), I will likely mine less BTC than I spent, but will still end up with more USD at a lower risk than just holding BTC. I think newly generated BTC will one day be more valuable than btc purchased from an exchange/localbitcoins I keep my mined coins separate, and don't spend these |
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