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Author Topic: BITCOIN IS TOO SLOW TO EVER SUCCEED AS ONLINE CURRENCY  (Read 2492 times)
cpt_howdy
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April 10, 2013, 12:08:32 PM
 #61

Like already said a 100 Times. Waiting for confirmation makes onnly sense for High Value Goods and for high turnover trading.

this
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danilom
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April 10, 2013, 12:57:06 PM
 #62

while you say that BTC is slow someone is doing a transaction now at $260... Very fast REALLY?

BTC - 1Lc9SRNYthrYFAJpJ5zxVWBgtXjQ7oYsRB

Bitmessage: BM-2cWq7FqzkzESHrm4w9RfTkg1PGRGhQhtpe
josvazg
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April 10, 2013, 02:28:18 PM
 #63


Ok, I already completed this paper.

It basically demonstrates both theoretically and empirically that it was possible and CHEAP for them (no mining at all) to make double-spends to a faked vendor (themselves of course). They just made sure the attacker's peer connected to the vendors peer while they maintained some (FEW) helpers at some points of the network.

Those helpers had a direct connection with the attacker daemon so that they could receive the order "to inject" the BAD transaction on the network when A needed it, that is just a few moments before or after A fakes the GOOD transaction to the vendor daemon.

Interesting facts they proved:
1- Some blocks can take up to 40 minutes to form.
2- Even after 2 seconds of head start of the GOOD tr. vs the BAD one, just 2 helpers used to guarantee the success of the attack most of the time so that the bad transaction is confirmed in the next block and the merchant is scammed (with no company or individual to sue).
And after 1 second the success is sure with JUST 2 helpers!!
Not really that expensive to have two or three modified bitcoind arround, a botnet of a few tenths of processes is easy and cheap to deploy.

3- Bitcoiners suggestion to use a "listening period" is NOT a definitive solution and can be defied by increasing the number of helpers (but still under 10 in most tests).

4- Bitcoiner's suggestion to use observers is only useful while increasing merchant bitcoin deployment costs setup, while a easier solution exists...

The problem here is simple...
Why does bitcoin peers SILENTLY drop double-spending transactions when they detect them?
It is silly they should just REPORT the invalid transactions to their peers (while reject them both in this block)

This is what the paper suggest as the solution just use an alert message (that the protocol already defined) to notify fraudulent transactions.

In this way a merchant, with an typical standard setup and no more hassles, can rely on bitcoin to make "instant" payments:
- In a shop, just make the receipt printer wait 6-12 seconds (configurable by the vendor with a default value considered "safe enough") so that any double spending attack is detected and notified in that time OR print a warning otherwise... so that the merchant can make the client wait for the police...

I prefer this solution to the one I was proposing and that was much more complex.

Anybody knows if these "double-spending report alerts" are implemented TODAY in the protocol?

(If that is the case I would have to admit that bitcoin does INDEED support "instant" transactions securely enough,
if not, why is this not implemented already?
what is the problem for such a small change with so obvious returns to be rejected?
still to much self-complacency?)


AND THANKS to VeeMiner FOR POINTING me to this paper!!!



 



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April 10, 2013, 06:23:33 PM
 #64

As long as it's done within an hour or, who cares? I stick to Paypal mostly due to ordering from ebay. >_>
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April 10, 2013, 06:55:12 PM
 #65

I love Bitcoin. I even wear Bitcoin t-shirts just to help publicize it and will soon implement BTC as a method of payment on some sites I develop. But there have been some valid points raised in this thread, and I hope the developers will take note and adjust.

Most of the "criticism" in this thread comes from others who also want to see Bitcoin succeed, and their observations were made from a desire to help and improve. It shouldn't be taken as a slight to the developers or to the Bitcoin system. Bitcoin rocks.

Comparison of Privacy-Centric Coins: https://moneroforcash.com/monero-vs-dash-vs-zcash-vs-bitcoinmixers.php also includes Verge and Pivx
bitcoinologist
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April 10, 2013, 09:44:32 PM
 #66

Great thread, some interesting points, some complete BS and a special thanks to the more level headed people who bought in the exact technical issues of "instant" transactions.

No doubt services or methods to make this possible or at least within a much shorter time span are needed for general adoptance of BTC in everyday online spending.

Good point about values, until Bitcoin finds its stable value, people cannot really trade. It's more than "displaying the BTC price". The cost/price of deals would be changing daily and making business via BTC impossible. You could pay for "deal A" in the morning and that cost to you could of doubled by the evening. You could be losing, gaining double in a day.

No merchants or buyers can trade like that.

As to creating a zero transaction service, I would genuinely be interested in working with anyone keen to make that happen.

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April 10, 2013, 11:00:16 PM
 #67

Hi,

Well for all the plusses, all the hype, all the talk of global change. There is ONE SMALL chink in the bitcoin Armour. For all the zero transactions, anonymity, security etc etc

IT IS TOO DAMN SLOW  !!

Unless bitcoin can match paypal/credit card for speed of use, all the pluses will be forgotten as joe public is left waiting for 10 mins, 2 hours or even the next day wondering if his/her bitcoin transaction  has confirmed.

Seriously, in light of the massive surge in bitcoin, currently driven by hype and stock broker mentality buying and speculating. IF bitcoin is ever to take over paypal and its other cronies, we need to be as quick.

Or, it will forever flounder as an experiment, great for blackmarket, some merchants will offer it but...that will be its zenith reached.

The whole concept of online transactions is INSTANT. SPEED, ONE CLICK...JOB DONE.

Bitcoin cannot offer this as the current rate of how the block chain works.

Thank you for you purchase, you might have the auction you wanted, you may have got the domain you wanted but give us a few hours or well, could be 10 mins, could be tomorrow and we will let you know if your transaction completed in time to get the purchase you wanted.

Ya righty !!....Ill use paypal or credit card.


lol
Mike Christ
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April 10, 2013, 11:14:14 PM
 #68

If Bitcoin makes it huge, you're going to see a huge shift in culture.

People will not only be encouraged to save, save, save, but when they do make purchases, they'll have to be patient for the funds to go through.

That will pretty much quash the live fast, die young, get fat, impulse-buy mentality America has and likes to push on the nations it conquers.  I'm all for that.

cpt_howdy
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April 11, 2013, 07:36:50 AM
 #69

Good point about values, until Bitcoin finds its stable value, people cannot really trade.

That's not really true; perhaps if the price had been oscillating wildly I'd agree with you - what we've had is sustained upward movement with the occasional flash crash. Merchants for one are quite happy to accept payments in Bitcoins while the price is going up (part of the reason I think bitcoinstore has been selling at a discount).
Customers might be wary about spending Bitcoins if they think the price is skyrocketing, but in practice that doesn't really seem to be the case. Especially since many of these people bought or mined their Bitcoins when the price was so low - I've had more orders since the price started going up than in the previous 7 months.
That the price is going up so steeply is ultimately a good thing for Bitcoin - by comparison with gold and silver, the higher Bitcoin's market cap is, the more stable the price should be. Silver is much more volatile than gold, because the market is so much smaller - both are highly stable by comparison with Bitcoin.
jago25_98
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April 11, 2013, 07:51:58 AM
 #70

This is what litecoin is for of course...

Ideas:

- establish a standard guide for how many confirmations to wait for according to the size of transactions: What do you advise?

- Mt.Gox should lower number of transactions on a sliding scale for smaller transactions. Waiting for 6 gives newcomers the idea that it's always got to be this way

- publicise the confirmation speed. 10mins = 1 confirmation, 3=30mins, 6=1hr (generally)

- advise the confirmation speed in tooltips on clients such as electrum

- notification of confirmation by email or audio like on blockchain.info

Crypto supporter!
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April 11, 2013, 08:10:19 AM
 #71

There is a trick that you can convert btc to ltc and then use the ltd to trade -> they move much faster.
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April 11, 2013, 08:37:11 AM
 #72

Bitcoin are easier to set up and use than PayPal.
Bitcoin are much safer against chargebacks than PayPal or Credit Card. With PayPal You must wait at least 6 months before chargebacks become unlikely.
You are wrong and do this for purpose.

+100.

XXthetimeisnowXX
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April 11, 2013, 08:44:36 AM
 #73

Hi,

Well for all the plusses, all the hype, all the talk of global change. There is ONE SMALL chink in the bitcoin Armour. For all the zero transactions, anonymity, security etc etc

IT IS TOO DAMN SLOW  !!

Unless bitcoin can match paypal/credit card for speed of use, all the pluses will be forgotten as joe public is left waiting for 10 mins, 2 hours or even the next day wondering if his/her bitcoin transaction  has confirmed.

Seriously, in light of the massive surge in bitcoin, currently driven by hype and stock broker mentality buying and speculating. IF bitcoin is ever to take over paypal and its other cronies, we need to be as quick.

Or, it will forever flounder as an experiment, great for blackmarket, some merchants will offer it but...that will be its zenith reached.

The whole concept of online transactions is INSTANT. SPEED, ONE CLICK...JOB DONE.

Bitcoin cannot offer this as the current rate of how the block chain works.

Thank you for you purchase, you might have the auction you wanted, you may have got the domain you wanted but give us a few hours or well, could be 10 mins, could be tomorrow and we will let you know if your transaction completed in time to get the purchase you wanted.

Ya righty !!....Ill use paypal or credit card.


I agree its not just swipe and go but just like anything the speed will increase, dial up vs high speed Internet. and no you have not done your home work it is more like four to fifteen minutes. mostly about 8 min for confirmation.

also paypal is the most frustrating platform ever!!!! especially for merchants like me. good god all mighty I hate paypal they are the worst to work with and you have limits on how much you can withdraw from your account per month. its a horrible system.

and credit card ..... relay!?!? you like racking up debt and paying an 8-20% fee on everything you purchase!??? and paying for the card in the first place?? AND the sales tax to top it off. pay the minimum every month and you could end up pay 2x the price of that flat screen TV.  also someone could still your credit card WAY easier than your blockchain and passkey.

I can see that they do have some benefits but they have more disadvantages than advantages
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April 11, 2013, 10:09:51 AM
 #74

Just wait things will get better....

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