RIPPLE - transaction list

[bitaccumulation]

I did a small transaction of BTC to USD in Ripple.  .01 BTC

However it seems that it took more than .01 BTC.  Why?   And why can't I see a list of every transaction including the actual amount that was taken?  I'm not sure how much of my BTC balance was taken over the .01 BTC but it is definitely more than .01 BTC - very annoying and even more annoying that I can't look and see what my balance was before the transaction and then after (HISTORY). 

I thought the transaction fee is in ripple.  If there is some other transaction fee (in BTC) why isn't that explicit and transparent?

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[dchapes]

I did a small transaction of BTC to USD in Ripple.  .01 BTC

However it seems that it took more than .01 BTC.  Why?   And why can't I see a list of every transaction including the actual amount that was taken?  I'm not sure how much of my BTC balance was taken over the .01 BTC but it is definitely more than .01 BTC - very annoying and even more annoying that I can't look and see what my balance was before the transaction and then after (HISTORY). 

I thought the transaction fee is in ripple.  If there is some other transaction fee (in BTC) why isn't that explicit and transparent?

Gateways can charge a transfer fee on their IOUs.
Bitstamp charges 0.2% as seen on their withdraw to Ripple page. (Note, at least it's cheaper than their 0.5% fee on their exchange).

That's one of the reasons why trust lines among friends can be useful, no fees.
One of the developers has repeatedly mentioned he'd like to see a virtual gateway arise that takes Bitstamp or WeExchange IOUs and gives you their own at lower or zero fees. That, plus competition between gateways should help to drive down transfer fees.

[bitaccumulation]

Gateways can charge a transfer fee on their IOUs.
Bitstamp charges 0.2% as seen on their withdraw to Ripple page. (Note, at least it's cheaper than their 0.5% fee on their exchange).

That's one of the reasons why trust lines among friends can be useful, no fees.
One of the developers has repeatedly mentioned he'd like to see a virtual gateway arise that takes Bitstamp or WeExchange IOUs and gives you their own at lower or zero fees. That, plus competition between gateways should help to drive down transfer fees.

I'm confused.   Once I move something into Ripple (BITCOIN or whatever) shouldn't I be able to trade IOUS without additional fees?

I already paid a fee when I moved the Bitcoin into Ripple.  Are you saying I pay them on any transaction I do inside Ripple too?

And if this is the case, why isn't there a transaction history where these fees are visible and I can see them.  I don't see anything but a decreasing balance.  No history other than a history of orders (which I can't tell if they were fulfilled or not).   That's not very useful.

[chriswen]

That's cause IOUs were basically destroyed.  The gateway doesn't owe you that much anymore.

Yup, there are numerous ways gateways can make money, they may or may not use all of these methods.

1. Charging a monthly or yearly account fee.
-AcmeGateway has an easy to use web site, is highly trusted, has excellent liqudity, low rates, and excellent customer service. This is why customers are happy to pay $1 per month or $10 a year to have an AcmeGateway account.
-These fees are charged in the normal manor and do necessarily have anything special Ripple process. For example, the customer may be invoiced or have their gateway account balance simply charged.
2. Charging a fee for deposits or withdrawals from the traditional financial network.
3. Converting currency denominations with a spread.
4. Charging a transfer fee whenever the gateway's IOUs are transfered between 3rd parties.
-Issuer's earn the transfer fee even when IOUs are exchange during currency conversion.
-Issuer's can earn transfer fees on both sides of a trade when they are the issuer of both of the currencies traded.
5. Charging a fee for issuing an IOU.
6. Placing deposits in an interest bearing account.

[bitaccumulation]

4. Charging a transfer fee whenever the gateway's IOUs are transfered between 3rd parties.
-Issuer's earn the transfer fee even when IOUs are exchange during currency conversion.
-Issuer's can earn transfer fees on both sides of a trade when they are the issuer of both of the currencies traded.

So I get charged to get an IOU in Ripple and then I get charged every time I use the IOU.  WOW!

That would be like you putting your gold in a bank and them giving you dollars (when that actually happened), except they charge you a fee for those dollars and then ON TOP OF THAT - every time you bought something with a dollar they charged you a fee.  Nuts.  Crazy.    Is that what you are saying is occurring here?  If so, I don't see this going very far.

Oh I almost forgot, PLUS I'm getting charged a fee in ripples too (albeit small but still).  I thought the ripple fee was the only fee once the IOUS were in the Ripple system.

In addition, why is there no history of these trades and fees in the interface?  That question hasn't been answered yet.

[dchapes]

So I get charged to get an IOU in Ripple and then I get charged every time I use the IOU.

Fees do indeed suck, but you do not pay any fee into or out of Ripple with the existing gateways.
The gateways charge banking related fees on fiat to and from your gateway account (same as most/all exchanges) but no fee to/from Ripple from there; both Bitstamp and WeExchange pay BTC transaction fees when withdrawing raw/actual BTC (hence WeExchange's minimum 0.1BTC bitcoin withdrawal).

[bitaccumulation]

Fees do indeed suck, but you do not pay any fee into or out of Ripple with the existing gateways.
The gateways charge banking related fees on fiat to and from your gateway account (same as most/all exchanges) but no fee to/from Ripple from there; both Bitstamp and WeExchange pay BTC transaction fees when withdrawing raw/actual BTC (hence WeExchange's minimum 0.1BTC bitcoin withdrawal).

OK.  So no fee when I add the IOU to ripple, but a fee every time I use it.  Is that correct?

Let's say someone sells me 3 XYZbucks for $10 USD-Bitstamp.  They don't turn the USD in for actual USD in their Bistamp account, but in turn want to spend it on something else.  Are we all paying a fee down the line every time we use that USD-Bitstamp in Ripple? If so, that really sucks.

Oh - and where is the transaction history?!

[webr3]

Fees do indeed suck, but you do not pay any fee into or out of Ripple with the existing gateways.
The gateways charge banking related fees on fiat to and from your gateway account (same as most/all exchanges) but no fee to/from Ripple from there; both Bitstamp and WeExchange pay BTC transaction fees when withdrawing raw/actual BTC (hence WeExchange's minimum 0.1BTC bitcoin withdrawal).

OK.  So no fee when I add the IOU to ripple, but a fee every time I use it.  Is that correct?

Let's say someone sells me 3 XYZbucks for $10 USD-Bitstamp.  They don't turn the USD in for actual USD in their Bistamp account, but in turn want to spend it on something else.  Are we all paying a fee down the line every time we use that USD-Bitstamp in Ripple? If so, that really sucks.

Oh - and where is the transaction history?!

Incorrect, there are no fees in ripple other than 0.00001 xrp, use ripple.Com/graph for history / ledger and ripple-watch on free node for live transactions

[bitaccumulation]

Incorrect, there are no fees in ripple other than 0.00001 xrp, use ripple.Com/graph for history / ledger and ripple-watch on free node for live transactions

That doesn't make sense.  I did a transaction on the Trade interface where I sold BTC IOUS for USD IOUS and it charged me a BTC fee.  There is no doubt.  I however, have no idea about what exactly happened because there is not transaction history within the interface. 

[JoelKatz]

So I get charged to get an IOU in Ripple and then I get charged every time I use the IOU.  WOW!

I don't know of any gateway that charges an issue fee. Gateways do currently charge a transfer fee when their IOUs change hands. We're hoping competition will push those fees down, but gateways have to have some source of income.

I hope that in the future, gateways can make a decent income on the interest earned on the funds they hold. However, right now, with interest rates effectively at zero, there's no way a gateway can charge no deposit fee, do redemptions at cost, and charge no transfer fee either. They have to make money somehow, especially because they do incur some fraud risks. Also, they need a high level of electronic security, and that is not free.

If you think the fee is too high, *please* start a competing gateway. Or start a virtual gateway that offers its own IOUs with no transfer fee and maintains liquidity to and from other gateway IOUs.

Oh I almost forgot, PLUS I'm getting charged a fee in ripples too (albeit small but still).  I thought the ripple fee was the only fee once the IOUS were in the Ripple system.

Transactions have a slight cost, about 100,000 transactions to the XRP. That's the only network fee.

[bitaccumulation]

I don't know of any gateway that charges an issue fee. Gateways do currently charge a transfer fee when their IOUs change hands. We're hoping competition will push those fees down, but gateways have to have some source of income.

Why would they charge a fee when an IOU changes hands?  Unless they are redeeming the IOU they have nothing to do with the transaction.  It would be like me writing on a piece of paper that I owe you $10US and you pass it on to 100 people before it gets redeemed by me.  Why in the world would I feel like I have the right to take a few pennies from every one of those 100 people as it moves around?  It's just crazy (IMHO).

I hope that in the future, gateways can make a decent income on the interest earned on the funds they hold. However, right now, with interest rates effectively at zero, there's no way a gateway can charge no deposit fee, do redemptions at cost, and charge no transfer fee either. They have to make money somehow, especially because they do incur some fraud risks. Also, they need a high level of electronic security, and that is not free.

Well I agree they need to make money somehow, I'm just not sure how charging AFTER the IOU circulates makes sense.

If you think the fee is too high, *please* start a competing gateway. Or start a virtual gateway that offers its own IOUs with no transfer fee and maintains liquidity to and from other gateway IOUs.

I'd love to but I'm still not sure on the regulatory stuff.  No one answered my questions on that.  And what is the difference between a virtual gateway and a competing gateway?

Is there anyone me or a company can hire to consult with us to do the proper technical steps to create a competing gateway using the Ripple system?  I have investors that are interested in creating an exchange and Ripple looks interesting but we're not programmers and we don't have the technical understanding necessary to do it without help.

[JoelKatz]

Why would they charge a fee when an IOU changes hands?  Unless they are redeeming the IOU they have nothing to do with the transaction.  It would be like me writing on a piece of paper that I owe you $10US and you pass it on to 100 people before it gets redeemed by me.  Why in the world would I feel like I have the right to take a few pennies from every one of those 100 people as it moves around?  It's just crazy (IMHO).

It's like airlines charging more for a round trip ticket that doesn't have a Saturday night stay. They can't charge directly for the value they add by making their balances redeemable, but doing so has a cost and they can't do it for nothing. They charge for something that they can charge for. If you have any ideas for other gateway business models, we'd love to hear them. Just understand that gateways incur significant costs associated with fraud, insurance, electronic security, and so on. They have to pay the bills somehow.

And what is the difference between a virtual gateway and a competing gateway?

A normal gateway gets fiat currencies like dollars and Euros into and out of the Ripple system. You send them fiat in the real world and they adjust your balance in Ripple. Then you cash out by sending them balances in Ripple and they back fiat in the real world.

A virtual gateway operates entirely inside the Ripple system. You send them Ripple balances from other gateways and they send you a Ripple balance from them. To redeem, you send them back Ripple balances and they send you back a balance at another gateway. A virtual gateway can provide you balances that are easily convertible into balances at the gateway of your choice and they can charge a lower transfer fee because their fraud risk and operating costs are lower.

No virtual gateways currently exist. So this is somewhat theoretical at this point.

You can also have a kind of "mini-gateway". A mini-gateway is like a virtual gateway but they also take fiat currencies and redeems their balances directly. They just don't do this as well as a normal gateway does (perhaps because they only perform transfers in person or only in one minor currency), so they offer virtual gateway services to make sure their balances have value. This is a way to make a regional gateway or a gateway at a single retail location.

[bitaccumulation]

Joel before I forget to ask again - why is there no history of the fees and transactions within the account interface.  And even when I go to the public transactions, I don't see anything about the fee to the exchange.  But even if it is there, why isn't a history of EVERY transaction available within the account?  I would think this would be a given. 

[bitaccumulation]

A virtual gateway operates entirely inside the Ripple system. You send them Ripple balances from other gateways and they send you a Ripple balance from them. To redeem, you send them back Ripple balances and they send you back a balance at another gateway. A virtual gateway can provide you balances that are easily convertible into balances at the gateway of your choice and they can charge a lower transfer fee because their fraud risk and operating costs are lower.

No virtual gateways currently exist. So this is somewhat theoretical at this point.

This is confusing.  Why wouldn't just be able to trade Ripple balances in regular trades?  Why would a "virtual gateway" be necessary?  How are they different?   Could you give me a concrete, specific example of what a virtual gateway would/could do that I couldn't do in a regular trade?

[ahbritto]

... why isn't a history of EVERY transaction available within the account?  I would think this would be a given. 

Ripple is not yet finished:
* https://github.com/rippleFoundation/ripple-client/issues/347

[bitaccumulation]

... why isn't a history of EVERY transaction available within the account?  I would think this would be a given. 

Ripple is not yet finished:
* https://github.com/rippleFoundation/ripple-client/issues/347

Thanks.

[JoelKatz]

This is confusing.  Why wouldn't just be able to trade Ripple balances in regular trades?  Why would a "virtual gateway" be necessary?  How are they different?   Could you give me a concrete, specific example of what a virtual gateway would/could do that I couldn't do in a regular trade?

The difference would be that a virtual gateway makes it its business to ensure its balances are liquid. For example, a virtual gateway could contractually obligate itself to redeem its USD balances for Bitstamp USD or it could maintain an exchange from its USD balances to WeExchange USD balances at a rate it contractually agrees to keep at $.995 to the dollar or better.

A virtual gateway isn't necessary. It just might be one business model that allows you to provide balances with liquidity and a lower transfer fee because you don't have to deal with fiat deposits and withdrawals and your fraud risk is minimal.

There a business opportunities in every corner of Ripple, just waiting for people to innovate.

[bitaccumulation]

Another transaction question -

I placed an offer to receive 11, 680 xrp for .08 BTC

Half of the transaction took place and then it said I had 5,840 xrp of the order remaining.

Then I received a notice that I SOLD 5,840 XRP for .04 BTC (THE REMAINING ORDER WAS TO BUY).

However, my balance of BTC did not increase by .04 (which it should have if I sold 5,840 XRP for .04 BTC).   Is this a glitch.

I am also not sure if my XRP balance went up another 5,840 because I have no transaction/balance history info in my account. (correction: the balance did go up for the full 11,680 XRP so it looks like the transaction went through correctly but the interface is labeling it incorrectly?)

8 hours ago   You sold 5,840 XRP for 0.04 BTC.This order has been funded.
10 hours ago   You sold 0.04 BTC for 5,840 XRP.This order has 5,840 XRP remaining.
10 hours ago   You created an offer accepting 11,680 XRP for 0.08 BTC

[virtualmaster]

Ripple is so confusing.
No human will ever understand how it works.