[Split topic] Speculation, capitalism, etc.

[kiba]

I'm sorry, I know my words are strong ... I understand that most people do not realize what they are doing. Can you call a child taking someone else's apple a scumbag because he "stole it"? I do not think so ... but it is expected that the child grows up and as a grown up is going to be held liable for the same action. It's time to grow up

It's the intention that counts, from the outside it is very hard if not impossible to distinguish speculation and genuine demand. Of course if you buy bitcoins to do some business with them and in the meantime it rises you're not speculator nor scumbag.

What gives bitcoin its value right now? What is backing it? There are not enough real useful services (meaning other than "let me try this" type of things which are driven by pure enthusiasm for the novelty of bitcoin - which is going to go away soon) so most of the apparent "value" is a bubble created by exactly the type of speculators hoping to make a profit. This is not real value ... it's virtual, it doesn't exist ... in the real world nobody values bitcoins for the sake of being bitcoins. It baffles my mind how anybody can see this as something good, why would it be good? For what? because it makes pretty charts? This type of economy is just a giant ponzi scheme snowballing and snowballing until there is enough suckers to believe it will go further up ... when the world runs out of suckers people start selling off unleashing a raging inferno of sell-offs where those who sell off first are at the top of the pyramid making huge profits while the base is going to loose big time ... in the end no real value or wealth was ever created, the money just changed hands (was redistributed) from the suckers to those at the top. there is not value in that ... pretty charts showing rising numbers are not wealth. It's fraud and a scam ... the only real value is physical economy and services that people desire *other than* monetary gain. Selling "investment funds" for the sake of making more money from money is not a service anybody would desire if they wouldn't want more money from it ... the same goes for gambling, casinos etc. - NOBODY would participate if there wasn't a prospect for making more money out of just money. This is the scam ... that *can't be done*, it's zero sum game. You can NOT make money from money this way or create real wealth ... you can just take it from somebody else - and that is just wrong and YES IT IS IMMORAL too!

Regardless, you are still accusing me and others of stealing and scamming. I WILL HOLD YOU accountable for libel on bitcoin community members.

I will not trade with you, give you anything, and so on, to the best of my knowledge possible. In other words, if I found you using ANY of my web app that I am building right now or in the future, I will suspend your accounts. I will tell other people to boycott you until you apologize for your fallacious libels.

Is that clear?

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[nelisky]

So much for the innocent child approach

I know we shouldn't feed trolls but I just can't help myself... Macho, do you have any idea how much you sound like some priest preaching to those which are poor in spirit? Next step is to start burning everyone that doesn't agree with you... ouch. Even worse, you sound like a government mandated agent, with your own morale that stands above everyone else's because, well, it serves you "and everyone else" better.

I'm usually on the side of the mild tempered, but I have to side with kiba on this one.

[Macho]

Regardless, you are still accusing me and others of stealing and scamming. I WILL HOLD YOU accountable for libel on bitcoin community members.

I will not trade with you, give you anything, and so on, to the best of my knowledge possible. In other words, if I found you using ANY of my web app that I am building right now or in the future, I will suspend your accounts. I will tell other people to boycott you until you apologize for your fallacious libels.

Is that clear?

We have a deal! I'll do the same thing for you I do not like scammers who refuse to change their ways after they're notified of their scam. And I'm going to call a scam everything that claims to make more money solely from money as they are just artificially inflating the price and are greatest threat to bitcoin and honest people than anything else. It's a ponzi scheme pure and simple ...

Seeing your mindset I wouldn't be interested in any of your "web apps" anyway, it's probably going to be a scam ... (not that you could identify me if I ever choose to use it LOL)

[Drifter]

I'm sorry, I know my words are strong ... I understand that most people do not realize what they are doing. Can you call a child taking someone else's apple a scumbag because he "stole it"? I do not think so ... but it is expected that the child grows up and as a grown up is going to be held liable for the same action. It's time to grow up

Why don't we grow up together? You're not going to help your cause one bit by calling us children. This could have been a good discussion but your pompous attitude carried throughout all of your posts is just going to make everyone defensive.  Lighten up, dude. No one wants to listen to a pigheaded preacher. Of course, you'll simply relate the fact that everyone is argumentative because we're all scammers who are no good for society, ignoring your own arrogance. In a sense, you've already made up your mind about us, so arguments about the situation is futile.

Scum of the Earth! If I wouldn't be that of a big believer in freedom and personal responsibility I would lock these people up the the worst prison until they rot!

It is a moral question, but we are people, we are supposed to care about morality ...

Glad I don't live in a world with your moralities.

[nelisky]

Regardless, you are still accusing me and others of stealing and scamming. I WILL HOLD YOU accountable for libel on bitcoin community members.

I will not trade with you, give you anything, and so on, to the best of my knowledge possible. In other words, if I found you using ANY of my web app that I am building right now or in the future, I will suspend your accounts. I will tell other people to boycott you until you apologize for your fallacious libels.

Is that clear?

We have a deal! I'll do the same thing for you I do not like scammers who refuse to change their ways after they're notified of their scam. And I'm going to call a scam everything that claims to make more money solely from money as they are just artificially inflating the price and are greatest threat to bitcoin and honest people than anything else. It's a ponzi scheme pure and simple ...

Seeing your mindset I wouldn't be interested in any of your "web apps" anyway, it's probably going to be a scam ... (not that you could identify me if I ever choose to use it LOL)

Do you even go to the grocery store? Because they make money from inflating the price of food, you know. And do you even know what a ponzi sheme is? Hint: it's not buying low and selling high

[Macho]

I'm not the one quoting my holy scriptures

Walter Block's Defending the Undefendable
http://mises.org/books/defending.pdf
Chapter 22, pg 165 in book (pg. 183 in pdf)

A nice refresher on the socially beneficial role of the speculator.  Small excerpt:

Kill the speculators! is a cry made during every famine that has ever existed. Uttered by demagogues, who think that the speculator causes death through starvation by raising food prices, this cry is fervently supported by the masses of economic illiterates. This kind of thinking, or rather nonthinking, has allowed dictators to impose even the death penalty for traders in food who charge high prices during famines. And without the feeblest of protests from those usually concerned with civil rights and liberties.

Yet the truth of the matter is that far from causing starvation and famines, it is the speculator who prevents them. And far from safeguarding the lives of the people, it is the dictator who must bear the prime responsibility for causing the famine in the first place. Thus, the popular hatred for the speculator is as great a perversion of justice as can be imagined. We can best see this by realizing that the speculator is a person who buys and sells commodities in the hope of making a profit. He is the one who, in the time-honored phrase, tries to “buy low and sell high.”

XC

My suspicions are confirmed, the "bitcoin community" (at least the significant part parroting their religious economic beliefs) is just a bunch of gullible children trotting out their holy text they've been indoctrinated into. They think that pretty charts and lines represent wealth and that profit is above all and justifies anything and everything. It's this kind of useful idiots who allowed the current crisis to materialize ... but they never learn, it's a religion and not to be questioned. Independent thought? Questioning the dogma? No!, Go away heretic ... we have Ludwig von Mises to tell us the ultimate truth! Ignore the real world, quick!

Bitcoin is doomed to fail with this kind of mindset in its community... the current price is just a bubble, it is going to burst sooner or later if real value in the form of goods and services is not introduced in near future. Mark my words ... those who sell last are going to be the suckers.

[Anonymous]

Scum of the Earth! If I wouldn't be that of a big believer in freedom and personal responsibility I would lock these people up the the worst prison until they rot!

I would lock these people up the the worst prison until they rot!

prison until they rot!

prison

So mr macho what are you going to do to people if they refuse to co-operate?

[anarchy]

I know it's hard but ignore him - he makes you crave to reply - that's his purpose.  Once you start ignoring trolls it becomes progressively easier the next time you encounter one   Save your energy for something better..

[kiba]

I am proud of this community. Despite Macho's insults, you guys play it swell and didn't insult Macho back.

[Macho]

So mr macho what are you going to do to people if they refuse to co-operate?

"If I wouldn't be that of a big believer in freedom and personal responsibility"

How do I deal with this kind of stupidity while not being a pompous ass?

I agree that we could grow up together, but it is just impossible to reasonably discuss with this kind of people who believe so bizarre things with so much certainty while outright refusing to consider anything else. These are religious fanatics. As Max Keiser calls them "financial terrorists", they are willing to terrorize the population because of their bizarre beliefs that profit justifies everything and speculation is the best thing since sliced bread. They are willing to go to unheard of extremes to justify these beliefs while quoting their economic priests like Mises and similar charlatans not understanding nor caring how it actually works in real world.

It's just impossible for me to remain calm and patient with people like this. I'm sure there are also reasonable people there in BTC community ... but I can't figure out why are they silent. then these religious fanatics are going to ruin it for everybody ... I can't take it anymore ...

I've been developing an application of my own for bitcoin but it doesn't give me much confidence that it is worthwhile when it is going to be overwhelmed by speculation and ponzi schemes ... we'll see.

[Macho]

Glad I don't live in a world with your moralities.

Yeah, I'm sure you enjoy seeing millions of men, women and children die of starvation all the time because some investment banker is taking his next big business into fruition. But I'm considered "immoral" for calling that banker scum ... and I'm supposed to be the one with values upside down?
 
So let's worship speculation and get offended by people calling scam a scam so we can ignore reality, sleep well at night and make some awesome profit without our conscience being moved.

I'm sad that I actually live in a world with moralities like yours

[kiba]

Glad I don't live in a world with your moralities.

Yeah, I'm sure you enjoy seeing millions of men, women and children die of starvation all the time because some investment banker is taking his next big business into fruition. But I'm considered "immoral" for calling that banker scum ... and I'm supposed to be the one with values upside down?
 
So let's worship speculation and get offended by people calling scam a scam so we can ignore reality, sleep well at night and make some awesome profit without our conscience being moved.

I'm sad that I actually live in a world with moralities like yours

Bitcoin is a capitalistic idea. What do you expect? Tree hugging hippies?

[Macho]

Bitcoin is a capitalistic idea. What do you expect? Tree hugging hippies.

ROFL.

This is it ... that it is a "capitalistic idea" justifies scams (or million of starved people to death in real economy) in your eyes? I'm hearing this all the time ... people working as slaves in sweatshops, response? It makes economic sense! Letting toxic waste into rivers, response? It's capitalism! Millions starved children? Yay for "free market"!

How can people in their right mind do this? Anybody who actually cares about people is called hippie? It is somehow cool to be coldblooded shark for profit? Does the fact that something "makes economic sense" justify the very real effects it has on human society? How for god's sakes? Economy is a human construct ... it should serve people, not the other way around!

I honestly can not comprehend this other than admitting that people have been simply brainwashed. They think that some virtual made up economic structure takes precedence over human values. How is this possible to achieve that people think like this? That if it makes profit it is good, that if somebody falls for it you're not responsible for him being robbed. That's like constructing booby traps all over your house and then laughing your ass off when your unsuspecting family members get slaughtered on them ... after all, they were stupid enough to walk right into them, right? Why should you who set them up be held responsible ... this is just some twisted logic, but it's real! Peope walk into those booby traps created by these people ... and they do get slaughtered en masse! This is no joke ... are you not concerned about that at all? "It's capitalist idea" is you answer? They deserve it? What the hell is wrong with you people?!

[bober182]

[Anonymous]

Bitcoin is a capitalistic idea. What do you expect? Tree hugging hippies.

ROFL.

This is it ... that it is a "capitalistic idea" justifies scams (or million of starved people to death in real economy) in your eyes? I'm hearing this all the time ... people working as slaves in sweatshops, response? It makes economic sense! Letting toxic waste into rivers, response? It's capitalism! Millions starved children? Yay for "free market"!

How can people in their right mind do this? Anybody who actually cares about people is called hippie? It is somehow cool to be coldblooded shark for profit? Does the fact that something "makes economic sense" justify the very real effects it has on human society? How for god's sakes? Economy is a human construct ... it should serve people, not the other way around!

I honestly can not comprehend this other than admitting that people have been simply brainwashed. They think that some virtual made up economic structure takes precedence over human values. How is this possible to achieve that people think like this? That if it makes profit it is good, that if somebody falls for it you're not responsible for him being robbed. That's like constructing booby traps all over your house and then laughing your ass off when your unsuspecting family members get slaughtered on them ... after all, they were stupid enough to walk right into them, right? Why should you who set them up be held responsible ... this is just some twisted logic, but it's real! Peope walk into those booby traps created by these people ... and they do get slaughtered en masse! This is no joke ... are you not concerned about that at all? "It's capitalist idea" is you answer? They deserve it? What the hell is wrong with you people?!

You have no idea do you? The current system is not capitalistic it is closer to fascism. That means business and government corporations are one and the same. It is the GOVERNMENT which allows their friends in business  get away with these atrocities. The GOVERNMENT steals your money and gives it to the corporations and bails them out. The GOVERNMENT accepts cash from lobbyists involved in corporations to let them skirt the laws that prevent a small business from competing and creates gigantic monopolies without competition.

A speculator without the backing of the GOVERNMENT will succeed or fail on their own terms, a speculator with the GOVERNMENT in their back pocket will make YOU pay for their mistakes. It becomes pure moral hazard which you are too blind to see.

Open your eyes and see the real culprits.

[kiba]

I don't know what you Macho and bober182 see in bitcoins.

Especially when the economy is inhabited and controlled by the very people you hate.

[grondilu]

I honestly can not comprehend this other than admitting that people have been simply brainwashed. They think that some virtual made up economic structure takes precedence over human values. How is this possible to achieve that people think like this? That if it makes profit it is good, that if somebody falls for it you're not responsible for him being robbed. That's like constructing booby traps all over your house and then laughing your ass off when your unsuspecting family members get slaughtered on them ... after all, they were stupid enough to walk right into them, right? Why should you who set them up be held responsible ... this is just some twisted logic, but it's real! Peope walk into those booby traps created by these people ... and they do get slaughtered en masse! This is no joke ... are you not concerned about that at all? "It's capitalist idea" is you answer? They deserve it? What the hell is wrong with you people?!

Why do you need to compare a commercial exchange to a situation where someone is falling into a trap and the other one is laughing about it ?  When to persons exchange goods, it is because it is in their interest, of both of them.   A gives x to B, and in exchange B gives y to A, because A needs y more than x and B needs x more than y.  It's a win-win.  Nobody is fooling anyone.   The thirsty one gives food to the humgry one, and the humgry one gives water to the thirsty one.

Stop thinking of capitalism as a way for people to fool others.  Capitalism is part of free martket, which is nothing but the voluntary exchange of stuffs.  There is nothing wrong about that, even in the hippy society you might be dreaming of.

[Bimmerhead]

Macho, you are absolutely out of control.  Your posts are the most dangerous things I have read on this forum.

This type of thinking, the idea that one can somehow 'know better' than the market, that one can somehow decide that speculators and financiers are immoral, that capitalism causes famine, this is the type of thinking that dominated the two greatest IMMORALITIES of the 20th century.  Communism and fascism.  I am appalled that this type of shallow thinking persists after all the world has learned.  Why does humanity have to be taught the same lessons over and over and over again!?

You talk about speculators driving up the cost of food.  What about all the farmers turning their corn into ethanol because some do-gooder much like yourself named Al Gore is imposing his 'morality' on the world, saying we need to 'get off oil'.  You think maybe that had something to do with the price of food?

Why don't you explain how it is that people starve in communist/state-directed economies all the time, but I have yet to hear of a famine in Switzerland, A COUNTRY COVERED IN SNOW HALF THE YEAR AND MOUNTAINS ALL OF THE YEAR.

Please tell us how speculation-free North Korea is such a bounteous land of plenty.

Explain how Cuba, not in any way subject to the whims of Wall St. bankers, exports desperate people clinging to planks of wood dying to reach oppressive Florida.

Remind us how those great instruments of state beneficence Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac set about to guarantee the mortgages of people who never should have had them guaranteed.  Tell us how that elitist plan turned out.

After the lessons of the 20th century, anybody who has the gall to think he knows better than the millions of decision-makers who make up the market really needs a humility transplant.

__________________

Getting back to the original post of this thread, I think that bit of speculative fever and some bubble action might be good for bitcoin in this way: it will bring a lot of attention and coverage that it wouldn't get otherwise.  That could very well expose bitcoin to some people who see it's practical benefits and will adopt it on that basis.

[Macho]

You have no idea do you? The current system is not capitalistic it is closer to fascism. That means business and government corporations are one and the same. It is the GOVERNMENT which allows their friends in business  get away with these atrocities. The GOVERNMENT steals your money and gives it to the corporations and bails them out. The GOVERNMENT accepts cash from lobbyists involved in corporations to let them skirt the laws that prevent a small business from competing and creates gigantic monopolies without competition.

A speculator without the backing of the GOVERNMENT will succeed or fail on their own terms, a speculator with the GOVERNMENT in their back pocket will make YOU pay for their mistakes. It becomes pure moral hazard which you are too blind to see.

Later phases of unchecked capitalism is fascism, it's one and the same. Fascism is completely predictable outcome of capitalism over time as corporations accumulate more and more influence, consolidate, form oligopolies and monopolies over time. This is exactly what happened, then they buy off the government when they accumulate enough of this influence ... this is also EXACTLY what happened. Congressmen (most of them at least) are then just puppets for hire by these corporations, isn't that obvious by now? The government becomes just a branch of corporations, they fuse A.K.A. fascism! That's what fascism is ... merger between corporations and government (according to Mussolini). And that's what happens when you believe in the type of wild predatory capitalism like many people here seem to believe in.

So government is not some detached entity like you seem to portray it, no no ... the government *is* the corporations at this point, it represents them. Just look where people in position of power come from (or are payed by), Monsanto, Goldman Sachs, Halliburton etc. etc. it's "capitalism" that hijacked the government and is working against the people to make them slaves ... because it "makes economic sense", there is profit in slaves you know ... and the people of the US are going to get it if they do not wake up.

[Bimmerhead]

Macho, did you read anything noagendamarket said?

Honestly, your comments are so surreal in this day and age I'm beginning to think you're putting us on. 

[Bruce Wagner]

I think that, often, "what makes economic sense"... is also what helps the masses most.  Money, like water, usually flows downward... toward where it is needed most.  For example, labor is cheapest in countries where money is needed most.  Labor is most expensive in countries where people are too rich, fat, and happy to want to perform labor.
Of course, tyrant dictators often control the money and the power in their respective countries... But not forever.  As that nation prospers more and more, one of two things tends to happen: (1)  They share the wealth with the laborers who are creating it. Result: They end up fat and happy and no longer the cheapest labor in the world. Or, (2) They greedily keep it all for themselves and let the laborers work more like a slave class. Result: Eventually the divide between the have's and have-not's grows wider and wider, until there is a revolution, and the dictator(s) are toppled.
In the end, this seems to be good for everyone.  Of course, these things don't happen overnight.  Maybe not even in one generation.  But they do happen over time.
Taiwan used to be impoverished.  They were known for making the cheapest plastic crap toys, and later Christmas tree lights.  Because they are capitalist and free, over time, the country prospered greatly... eventually holding the largest foreign cash reserves of any nation.   Now, they make computers, laptops, and other very sophisticated tech products.  The cheap plastic toy manufacturing moved to Malaysia and China.   The tide rolls on.   Now, China is advancing.   More and more sophisticated electronics are being manufactured there.   As the search for ever-cheaper labor continues....  the money flows to where it's needed most....  over time.

[Macho]

Macho, you are absolutely out of control.  Your posts are the most dangerous things I have read on this forum.

This type of thinking, the idea that one can somehow 'know better' than the market, that one can somehow decide that speculators and financiers are immoral, that capitalism causes famine, this is the type of thinking that dominated the two greatest IMMORALITIES of the 20th century.  Communism and fascism.  I am appalled that this type of shallow thinking persists after all the world has learned.  Why does humanity have to be taught the same lessons over and over and over again!?

No, unchecked capitalism results in fascism ... as the gentleman before me already said, there already is fascism is the US (and most of the world) because corporations are fusing with governments. THAT is dangerous! To say that you can make people starve and die by punching some numbers into the computer and it is ok apparently - that is dangerous.

You talk about speculators driving up the cost of food.  What about all the farmers turning their corn into ethanol because some do-gooder much like yourself named Al Gore is imposing his 'morality' on the world, saying we need to 'get off oil'.  You think maybe that had something to do with the price of food?

Why don't you explain how it is that people starve in communist/state-directed economies all the time, but I have yet to hear of a famine in Switzerland, A COUNTRY COVERED IN SNOW HALF THE YEAR AND MOUNTAINS ALL OF THE YEAR.

Bio-fuels are biggest scam of the century along with Al "slimeball" Gore and his sci-fi horror movie inconvenient truth! I'm not imposing anything on anybody or would I if I actually had the power. I believe in personal responsibility and personal choice. So I would never force anybody to do anything ... but that doesn't mean I'm not going to *argue* and try to *persuade* people by *arguments* to change their way (or I change mind if I discover that I'm wrong)

The carbon credits is the biggest ponzi scheme of them all, it is a scam so big that I can't even articulate it, it seems we agree there.

Please tell us how speculation-free North Korea is such a bounteous land of plenty.

Explain how Cuba, not in any way subject to the whims of Wall St. bankers, exports desperate people clinging to planks of wood dying to reach oppressive Florida.

Remind us how those great instruments of state beneficence Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac set about to guarantee the mortgages of people who never should have had them guaranteed.  Tell us how that elitist plan turned out.

After the lessons of the 20th century, anybody who has the gall to think he knows better than the millions of decision-makers who make up the market really needs a humility transplant.

You're confused here and committing a logical fallacy called false dichotomy ... that predatory capitalism is bad doesn't mean communism is good, where did you get that silly idea? It doesn't make sense, does it? You're just making up excuses for the failures of the type of thinking which lead us to the bring of a greatest crisis in the history of humankind.

Getting back to the original post of this thread, I think that bit of speculative fever and some bubble action might be good for bitcoin in this way: it will bring a lot of attention and coverage that it wouldn't get otherwise.  That could very well expose bitcoin to some people who see it's practical benefits and will adopt it on that basis.

Well, I can't exactly see how a lot of people loosing their money when the bubble bursts can be considered a ood thing. Do you think it is going to generate some confidence in the bitcoin currency then? It will bring attention to bitcoin no question about that ... but what kind of attention will it be?

"The first free and independent currency crashes leaving thousand of people without their money"

Well, no particularly positive attention ...

[Bimmerhead]

No, unchecked capitalism results in fascism ... as the gentleman before me already said, there already is fascism is the US (and most of the world) because corporations are fusing with governments.

You seem to be unable to differentiate between Fascist corporatism and capitalism.  Please see the Google monster for in-depth help with this. 

To say that you can make people starve and die by punching some numbers into the computer and it is ok apparently - that is dangerous.

Apparently if people starve and die because some unspanked trust-fund pseudo-intellectual in a university comes up with a theory of how the world should work, that's A-o.k.

You're confused here and committing a logical fallacy called false dichotomy ... that predatory capitalism is bad doesn't mean communism is good, where did you get that silly idea? It doesn't make sense, does it? You're just making up excuses for the failures of the type of thinking which lead us to the bring of a greatest crisis in the history of humankind.

Well here is the heart of the matter.  You think the dichotomy is false.  The dichotomy isn't false, it is real.  You can have an economy of free people taking responsibility for their lives and their decisions and freely choosing to trade or not trade with one another.  Or you can have some self-righteous social planner make decisions for people  Those are your choices.  Everything else is a variation on one of those two options.  I know which option I choose, the one that is not responsible for the death of 100 million* people in the last century. 


*http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Black_Book_of_Communism

[Macho]

I think that, often, "what makes economic sense"... is also what helps the masses most.

This is one of the dogmas which is so easily proven wrong that it boggles the mind why anybody would believe it.

It makes economic sense to run sweatshops and even slaves (if they are not going to rise up that is), I doubt anybody would consider that "helping the masses".

It also makes economic sense to release toxic waste into nearby river instead of often expensive disposal of it. Again, i doubt that can be called helpful.

There are just so blatant examples of this that it cannot be anything else than religion to believe that nonsense ... it for example makes perfect economic sense to rob an old lady on the street. If there wasn't for "regulation" aka laws against robing old ladies on the street, would you say it is ok to do it because well ... it's capitalism after all and you make a profit by doing it?

Of course profit worshipers like to point out to "voluntary" transactions (which robbing an old lady is not) so better example is a mafia offering you "protection" for money. You do not have to accept ... but be prepared for your business to be burned down of you don't. It's the same with people working at sweatshops ... you do not have to work there religious free marketers will say, you can refuse and die on the street corner. Yeah, it's your choice ... you see, you're free! As much as slaves were free not to obey their master ... they could do that, so why the need to abolish slavery, duh ...

It is just mindfuck with these people, it doesn't make sense at all ... it's all just virtual abstracts of how they imagine things would work, not how they actually work.

[Bimmerhead]

I can't believe I'm responding to this, but the compulsion to say something is just so strong.  Must be ocd.

It makes economic sense to run sweatshops and even slaves (if they are not going to rise up that is), I doubt anybody would consider that "helping the masses".

Slavery has nothing to do with capitalism.  You do understand that capitalism is about the free dealing of free people, right?  Slavery is where one person imposes their will on another in a coercive manner. 

It also makes economic sense to release toxic waste into nearby river instead of often expensive disposal of it. Again, i doubt that can be called helpful.

Again, do you not realize that releasing toxic waste into a river amounts to a subsidy?  This is not a free market action.  This is the action of someone imposing their will on another person's property.  This is the action of a fascist.

Of course profit worshipers like to point out to "voluntary" transactions (which robbing an old lady is not) so better example is a mafia offering you "protection" for money. You do not have to accept ... but be prepared for your business to be burned down of you don't.

Again, burning down another person's property... oh why bother.
In each of your examples, the perpetrator (slave owner, subsidy-seeking waste dumper, mafioso) exemplifies the behaviour you are advocating.  The imposition of one person's will on another person involuntarily.  This is why your posts are so provocative.

[Macho]

No, unchecked capitalism results in fascism ... as the gentleman before me already said, there already is fascism is the US (and most of the world) because corporations are fusing with governments.

You seem to be unable to differentiate between Fascist corporatism and capitalism. 

Capitalism evolves into corporate fascism if people become bamboozled by the kind of nonsense some are preaching here. Capitalism works only when you have responsible an informed citizenry (or consumers as they like to call them). But if these people start to believe that corporations can do anything for the sole reason that "it makes economic sense", or that simply "because they are corporations and that's what corporations do", or that it's ok to speculate because well ... you can! Then it evolves into fascism very fast, when people lose their guard. So I'm not advocating changing the system, not at all ... I love capitalism, you are misunderstanding me there, I do not want even to ban anything, no! I want *informed participants* taking part in it so scams and frauds are exposed and not taken part in. All I want is informed people to create a market pressure such that "immoral", fraudulent and unsustainable schemes are eradicated. Not by banning, not by hunting down their creators but by *informed* consumers. I love freedom ... but I also love sanity and that's what is lacking here Freedom without sanity and responsibility is a recipe for disaster ... as you can see in the real world right now.

The rest of your post is stemming from this misunderstanding. I'm not saying abolish freedom/capitalism ... I'm saying, inform yourself and think for yourself for god's sakes a little do not parrot the nonsense pushed by those at the top, it's there to misguide you and defraud you of everything.

[MoonShadow]

I think that, often, "what makes economic sense"... is also what helps the masses most.

This is one of the dogmas which is so easily proven wrong that it boggles the mind why anybody would believe it.

I normally get paid to educate the economicly illiterate, and you are a pretty severe case of terminally wrong.  If you believe that it's easy to prove Economic theories incorrect, then try it.  If you succeed, you would be famous.  If you are wrong, but even come close you will win the Nobel prize.  It's not called the 'dismal science' for nothing.

It makes economic sense to run sweatshops and even slaves (if they are not going to rise up that is), I doubt anybody would consider that "helping the masses".

It does not make economic sense to own slaves in a free society, but I'm sure that I'll never convince you of that.  regardless, a 'sweatshop' worker isn't a slave.

It also makes economic sense to release toxic waste into nearby river instead of often expensive disposal of it. Again, i doubt that can be called helpful.
.

And, again, toxic dumping does not make economic sense in a free society; one where corporations are not protected from liability.  The very nature of the corporation means that it is both a creation of the state, and co-dependent upon it.  That may be capitalism in your eyes, but that isn't free enterprise by any stretch.  That is, by definition, collective control of the means of production; i.e. socialism.  Fascism, as it is widely understood, is state control over privately held capital via regulation.  The US is, and has been for some time, a 'soft' fascist economy.  That does not automaticly reflect upon the individual players that operate within that economic system.

[grondilu]

It's the same with people working at sweatshops ... you do not have to work there religious free marketers will say, you can refuse and die on the street corner. Yeah, it's your choice ... you see, you're free! As much as slaves were free not to obey their master ... they could do that, so why the need to abolish slavery, duh ...

Other points are easy to refute, but this one is interesting.

Honnestly as a capitalist I reckon there is a little philosophical issue here.  It's all about the concept of "wage slave".  Is a worker really free to resign if he doesn't like his job ??  If this means he has to face financial difficulties, possibly poverty and starvation, is it compatible with freedom ?

I personnaly think so.  Personnaly I resigned several times in my life.  I've never regretted it, and I just don't believe in the "wage slave" concept.  But I understand it is a huge debate, which goes way beyond the debate about money and bitcoin.

If you are afraid of material factors such as lack of money or lack of professional perspective, then you will never be free.  If you believe you are a slave because you need money, then your master is not your employer.  It is your lack of courage.

[Bimmerhead]

The rest of your post is stemming from this misunderstanding. I'm not saying abolish freedom/capitalism ... I'm saying, inform yourself and think for yourself for god's sakes a little Wink do not parrot the nonsense pushed by those at the top, it's there to misguide you and defraud you of everything.

Look, if person A freely sells his Bitcoin to person B, and the value of Bitcoin subsequently skyrockets, person A did not get screwed.
If person A buys Bitcoin from person B, and the value of Bitcoin subsequently drops in half, B did not screw A.

You cannot decide what the value of something is.  "Stuff" is not necessarily better than speculation.  Does the world really need more SUVs?  More television sets?  More designer clothes?

If I get a rush out of playing the stock market, who are you to say that is not worth as much as a new pair of shoes?  There's a good argument to be made that more stuff on this planet would be immoral.  Yet that is what you are advocating.  More immoral stuff.  Shame on you.

[Bruce Wagner]

...the speculators are buying rice for *the sole purpose* of selling it at higher price so net effect is that the rice is more expansive than it would be if the market was untampered with (not manipulated) with a cut going to the speculator. The speculator *does nothing else* than take the cut. There is no value added, he just steals the money counting on the fact that regular people do not have the time or desire to watch for such a thing (because they are honest and actually producing real goods rather than feeding off of someone else's work)...

Sorry.  But this logic is so.... shall we say....   "flawed".  ( To say the least.  ...and to be kind. )

Let me ask you this:  When the speculators LOSE money, who is stealing from whom?   Huh?    Who is the thief then?

Remember, speculators LOSE money just about as often as the MAKE money.   That's why it's called speculation.   So...  When they LOSE money....  Who is the thief?  

By your logic.....    YOU are.

Speculators are to a currency.... like the thermostat is to your furnace.   When it's too hot, they automatically decrease the temperature.   When it's too cold, they automatically increase the temperature.   Speculators may make for more volatile swings in the value.   However, when the value is higher than it should be, they sell... bringing the value down.   When the value is lower than it should be, they buy... bringing the value up.   Speculation is a necessary, beneficial, essential component of a free market.

[MoonShadow]

do not parrot the nonsense pushed by those at the top, it's there to misguide you and defraud you of everything.

First, it's not your problem what we understand or do not.

Second, if there is any grand cabal 'at the top', then they aren't telling us anything at all, much less anything most of us would respect.  That cabal could only be the Federal Reserve, it's benefactors and beneficiaries, and the economic wonks on it's payroll.  None of which has anything to do with us.

[Bruce Wagner]

It makes economic sense to run sweatshops and even slaves (if they are not going to rise up that is), I doubt anybody would consider that "helping the masses".

This is just plain false.   As long as those workers are voluntarily working there, they are BETTER OFF.   Would you rather have them work hard for 20 cents an hour, or have their family starve to death.   Those are your two choices.   Which do you choose?

I can tell you for sure:  If you ask them...   They will tell you that the day they got that job.... in the "sweatshop"...  on the cruise line... whatever... for 20 cents an hour...  THAT day felt like they had won the lottery.

So, that IS helping the masses.    Directly.

And, as I said, those workers will eventually either become prosperous and live a better life.... or they WILL rise up and overthrow their dictator...   Either way, it does benefit those masses.

[Macho]

It makes economic sense to run sweatshops and even slaves (if they are not going to rise up that is), I doubt anybody would consider that "helping the masses".

It does not make economic sense to own slaves in a free society, but I'm sure that I'll never convince you of that.  regardless, a 'sweatshop' worker isn't a slave.

How it does not make economic sense? I'm sure going to make bigger profit when I do not have to pay people than when I do. Economic sense has nothing to do with "free society", that's the problem. If slavery was accepted by society you bet your bottom dollar that it would be practiced. So the only reason it is not practiced is the external pressure from people like you and me making an ethical or moral judgment and disproving of that kind of action. We are willing to speak out, boycott and protest such a company - that is the sole reason they're not doing it. (and also fear of the government intervention, which in ideal case is just an extension of your and my moral judgment - which would be the case if the gov actually worked for the people instead of the corporations themselves)

If we were willing to exert such pressure against sweatshops, they would have stop that too. So why we don't, do you approve of sweatshops? Does the company have "the right" to do that and that justifies it? why is it happening if it would make no economic sense? Are they doing it just for the fun of it?

This is the solution I'm proposing ... educate people about these things and exert just as much pressure on those companies as it would be exerted if they tried to practice slavery. Using our moral judgment of what is right and what is wrong. Creating ponzi schemes is wrong, or do you think not? Do you consider them good and wonderful or beneficial for something? We are exercising our moral judgment in the case of slavery ... why would it be a bad thing to do the same with ponzi schemes?

Some people here seem to be suggesting that morals do not belong into economy ... that is just so wrong, morals should be the *driver* of economy, just as it is with slavery, toxic waste and many other things.

In short: Morals trump "economic sense" every time and the later is not excuse for breaking the former! In my view at least, some people are apparently perfectly willing to break their morals for economic/financial gain. I consider that wrong ... shoot me for it.

[Macho]

Let me ask you this:  When the speculators LOSE money, who is stealing from whom?   Huh?    Who is the thief then

If the speculators would be losing money they wouldn't speculate ... it's an oxymoron. Of course some do, but net effect is speculative gain, there simply wouldn't be speculators if this weren't so. But we have real world to compare this with, we do not have to be talking in hypotheticals and you can clearly see that the speculators on Wall Street are making HUGE profits while regular guy is losing everyhting, industry is crumbling, exports are almost nonexistent etc. In other words real economy was replaced by virtual casino economy where real producers not not stand a chance against speculators. And when it is discovered that the speculators are holding worthless paper instead of them going bankrupt they are bailed out! This is not the fault of "government intervention" as is presented, the fault is that key people in government are bought off by the exact same CEOs holding that worthless paper to bail them out! It is NOT in the gov interest to do that, the only reason they're doing it is because they actually work (are "hired" aka bribed) for the corporations which benefit from this robbery. In that case the gov *is* the corporation! It is the same entity handing itself public money.

[grondilu]

How it does not make economic sense? I'm sure going to make bigger profit when I do not have to pay people than when I do. Economic sense has nothing to do with "free society", that's the problem. If slavery was accepted by society you bet your bottom dollar that it would be practiced. So the only reason it is not practiced is the external pressure from people like you and me making an ethical or moral judgment and disproving of that kind of action. We are willing to speak out, boycott and protest such a company - that is the sole reason they're not doing it.

Capitalism is not liberalism.   The former is compatible with slavery, the latter is not.

In a capitalist world, slaves could be considered as a mean of production, like any other.  But such a society would not be liberal.



The thing is : most people here are BOTH capitalists AND liberals.    Well, at least I am.

[BrightAnarchist]

Capitalism is not liberalism.   The former is compatible with slavery, the latter is not.

In a capitalist world, slaves could be considered as a mean of production, like any other.  But such a society would not be liberal.



The thing is : most people here are BOTH capitalists AND liberals.    Well, at least I am.

Liberal as in classical liberal, correct? The left kind of stole the term liberal...

[Macho]

Capitalism is not liberalism.   The former is compatible with slavery, the latter is not.

In a capitalist world, slaves could be considered as a mean of production, like any other.  But such a society would not be liberal.



The thing is : most people here are BOTH capitalists AND liberals.    Well, at least I am.

OK ... is liberalism compatible with sweatshops then? Toxic waste? ponzi schemes? If not, why not?

I think we are not understanding each other in one pretty obscure point, I'll try to explain once I know you answer so i can see if I'm right ...

[kiba]

Capitalism is not liberalism.   The former is compatible with slavery, the latter is not.

In a capitalist world, slaves could be considered as a mean of production, like any other.  But such a society would not be liberal.



The thing is : most people here are BOTH capitalists AND liberals.    Well, at least I am.

OK ... is liberalism compatible with sweatshops then? Toxic waste? ponzi schemes? If not, why not?

I think we are not understanding each other in one pretty obscure point, I'll try to explain once I know you answer so i can see if I'm right ...

You went batshit crazy for two thread and accuse us of all sort of stuff that we didn't endorse.

[Anonymous]

I think there are a few agorists here as well 

[grondilu]

OK ... is liberalism compatible with sweatshops then? Toxic waste? ponzi schemes? If not, why not?

Well I'm not sure I know the exact meaning of sweatshops (I'm not english native speaker), but according to what I can read about it on wikipedia, sweatshop workers don't have chains on their ankles, nor are they beaten up to death if they resign.

Toxic waste is criminal if it spoils someone else's property, including public property.

I don't know about Ponzi schemes.  To me, the bad thing about it is when there is a lie behind it.  And even a lie is not a crime.  Moral risk is one of the things you have to deal with in finance.

[Bruce Wagner]

If the speculators would be losing money they wouldn't speculate...

Oh, come on.  That's like saying, "If gamblers lost money, they wouldn't gamble."    If that were true, Las Vegas would not exist.   Even you know that gamblers don't always win.  In fact, they lose much more often than they win.

Anyway, I think some of your sentiments are close....  But you keep missing the target.

You seem to have been brainwashed a little bit by the media and other "powers that be"...

The cause of our current Wall St economic woes is NOT due to speculators.   There's nothing wrong with speculation.   Speculation is as old as money itself.

The cause of much of our current economic woes is simple FRAUD.   It's from creating paper that's worthless, then having the most reputable rating firms declare it GOOD and SAFE.

That is just plain FRAUD --- nothing more, nothing less.

FRAUD is not capitalism.   Fraud is fraud.   It's just criminal activity plain and simple.   But don't buy into this "blame the speculators" BS.   That's just an excuse to let the guilty off the hook.

Meanwhile, I view corporations as simply "machines to make money".  They have no conscious whatsoever.  To expect them to have a conscious is as ridiculous as expecting your refrigerator to have a conscious.   Rampant corporatology, and government collusion with global corporations leads to more corruption.... usually with very bad results for the masses.  That's why it's up to governments to regulate and control corporations...  keeping them in line.   For example, Walmart has basically BECOME a China company.... representing China's interests far more than American interests.   That's what happens with a "machine to make money"...  It just gets more and more efficient at making money... until it eventually crosses the line... and goes too far.

Anyway, capitalism is not to blame.  And speculation is not to blame.   The people need to educate themselves more about how things work.   Perpetrators of fraud must be punished.  And corporations need to be reigned in and controlled by the government.

[Macho]

I think we are not understanding each other in one pretty obscure point, I'll try to explain once I know you answer so i can see if I'm right ...

You went batshit crazy for two thread and accuse us of all sort of stuff that we didn't endorse.

that goes both ways I believe but I don't mind ... btw if you endorse intentional speculation for the sole purpose of profit then I'm still calling you a scumbag LOL

I did not accuse you of that, you confessed it

I believe that kind of speculation is wrong, morally wrong, just like sweatshops are in my view and I'm not going to endorse it. On the contrary I'm going to speak out against it as I would against owners or practitioners of sweatshops ... and I would also call them scumbags

[Macho]

If the speculators would be losing money they wouldn't speculate...

Oh, come on.  That's like saying, "If gamblers lost money, they wouldn't gamble."

Are you claiming that net effect of global speculation is loss for the speculators? The religious economists just *love* speaking in hypotheticals and they avoid comparing their made up scenarios with real world like a vampire garlic LOL

So? Are the speculators on average making money or losing it?

[kiba]

I think we are not understanding each other in one pretty obscure point, I'll try to explain once I know you answer so i can see if I'm right ...

You went batshit crazy for two thread and accuse us of all sort of stuff that we didn't endorse.
that goes both ways I believe but I don't mind ... btw if you endorse intentional speculation for the sole purpose of profit then I'm still calling you a scumbag LOL

I did not accuse you of that, you confessed it

I believe that kind of speculation is wrong, morally wrong, just like sweatshops are in my view and I'm not going to endorse it. On the contrary I'm going to speak out against it as I would against owners or practitioners of sweatshops ... and I would also call them scumbags

But you did say I endorse polluting the environment, slavery, amongst other things. I have no problem with speculation and owning factories but I do have a problem with slavery, polluting the environments, and such.

[Bruce Wagner]

I believe that kind of speculation is wrong, morally wrong, just like sweatshops are in my view and I'm not going to endorse it. On the contrary I'm going to speak out against it as I would against owners or practitioners of sweatshops ... and I would also call them scumbags

I know, personally, two people who grew up in two different countries... but both had this in common:  They worked in sweatshops most of their life.  And they would be the first to tell you...  They thank GOD for those sweatshops.   If it hadn't been for those sweatshops, they and their families would have likely starved to death.   

One of these families was in Taipei, Taiwan about 40 years ago.   The other one was in Miami, Florida about 45 years ago.

Sweatshops are just like any other productive capitalist business.  If the workers are working there out of their own free will, they are almost always EXTREMELY grateful for their job there.

The irony is:  Those who would call sweatshops immoral are fat, rich, and happy... living in rich Western countries... and have probably never even SEEN true hunger before in their lives.   Yet, they want to judge the sweatshops as evil....  while the workers are thanking God for them, and calling them a blessing from God.

Speculation is not immoral.  Gambling is not immoral.   The only time it's bad is if you are doing it too much... to the point that it is harming YOU.   Then it's a problem.

[Macho]

Well I'm not sure I know the exact meaning of sweatshops (I'm not english native speaker), but according to what I can read about it on wikipedia, sweatshop workers don't have chains on their ankles, nor are they beaten up to death if they resign.

It means they make few cents an hour keeping them barely alive while company like Nike is selling the shoes they make for hundreds of dollars in "first world" countries making HUGE profits for which their CEOs buy yachts and golf courses and jets to amuse themselves with.

Do you approve of such a practice? Do you consider it morally right and justified and it should be just that way?

Toxic waste is criminal if it spoils someone else's property, including public property.

Criminal is whatever gov says is criminal, in most developed countries sweatshops are illegal (guaranteed minimal wage) so that is irrelevant. The question is, do you approve of it being criminal? It can be made legal tomorrow if people of that country agree that it should, do you think it should be legal? If not, why not? Isn't it "liberal" to not regulate the company and punish it for doing what it thinks benefits it?

I don't know about Ponzi schemes.  To me, the bad thing about it is when there is a lie behind it.  And even a lie is not a crime.  Moral risk is one of the things you have to deal with in finance.

Again, it's not about what is crime or not ... it is about: do you approve or not? Would you speak against ponzi schemes if you knew of any as I'm doing? Would you try to warn people to steer away from them and warn others? That is the question!

because I'm being lambasted here for speaking against something that I believe to be wrong just because "it makes economic sense" or "can be done" or "that's what capitalism is" and similar justifications ... do you consider them valid justifications for letting ponzi schemes happen and not speak up against them?

[MoonShadow]

It makes economic sense to run sweatshops and even slaves (if they are not going to rise up that is), I doubt anybody would consider that "helping the masses".

It does not make economic sense to own slaves in a free society, but I'm sure that I'll never convince you of that.  regardless, a 'sweatshop' worker isn't a slave.

How it does not make economic sense? I'm sure going to make bigger profit when I do not have to pay people than when I do. Economic sense has nothing to do with "free society", that's the problem. If slavery was accepted by society you bet your bottom dollar that it would be practiced.

But slavery is not acceptable to a free society, which is key to why it does not make economic sense.  Think about it for a while.  You will know you understand it once you realize why someone else has already told you that he will refuse to do any business with you.

So the only reason it is not practiced is the external pressure from people like you and me making an ethical or moral judgment and disproving of that kind of action. We are willing to speak out, boycott and protest such a company - that is the sole reason they're not doing it.

Well, that is not the sole reason, but  powerful one, indeed.  Let me ask you something, if a clothing designer is outed for using a 'sweatshop' to produce a line of fashion clothing, how does that revelation affect his company's bottom line?  How does the prior knowledge of such a possibility affect the business decisions of the company as it is setting up production?  Finally, how much better, or worse, would these same results affect the company that instead used actual slave labor instead of third world laborers?

So when you say that the moral code of society is the only thing preventing these amoral companies using from slave labor; what is "society", the collective will of the public as interpreted by government regulators, or the collective will of the public as represented by the aggregate consumer, or is it something else entirely?

BTW, what I've just done is switch to the "classical" method of teaching, free of charge to you.  Further lessons may require compensation, which may prove difficult if everyone looking to sell coins are unwilling to sell them to you.  I do not take checks, credit or fiat currency online.

If we were willing to exert such pressure against sweatshops, they would have stop that too. So why we don't, do you approve of sweatshops? Does the company have "the right" to do that and that justifies it? why is it happening if it would make no economic sense? Are they doing it just for the fun of it?

It doesn't matter if I approve of it or not, nor does it matter if I consider a company to have rights.  They exist because low skill manufacturing can be performed at a much lower wage in third world nations, which given enough time makes third world nations into second world nations.  Don't forget, the US & Britain both went through that stage during the industrial revolution.  A crappy job is still preferable to subsistence farming, which is preferable to starvation.

This is the solution I'm proposing ... educate people about these things and exert just as much pressure on those companies as it would be exerted if they tried to practice slavery. Using our moral judgment of what is right and what is wrong.

Before you attempt to educate others, you must first educate yourself.

Creating ponzi schemes is wrong, or do you think not?

I smell straw burning...

No, the fraud normally associated with a ponzi scheme is wrong, some guy openly starting a ponzi scheme on an online forum just to see if he can is not necessarily so.  The Social Security System is a ponzi scheme, by definition, but I don't consider it wrong because it's fraudulent.  I consider it wrong because it's force.

But that's another topic.

 Do you consider them good and wonderful or beneficial for something?

As has already been pointed out to you, the trades that you are railing against occur between two people who each believe (rightly or wrongly) that they will each benefit from the trade, otherwise no trade occurs.  John Stossel often calls this the "double thank-you moment".  As long as no one is coerced, I regard "sweatshops" in the same light.  It's not the factory owner, nor the clothing retailer, that created the poverty in these third world nations; but it is their pursuit of self interest (and the pursuit of the self interests of the voluntary factory worker) that benefits the consumer.  What is good for the individual is generally good for the society at large, with notable exceptions.

 We are exercising our moral judgment in the case of slavery ... why would it be a bad thing to do the same with ponzi schemes?

No one said it would be bad for you to exercise moral judgment, in regard to your own transactions.  It's your attitude that others need to be relieved of our dogmatic attachment to fundamental economic principles that has this thread in a tivy.

Some people here seem to be suggesting that morals do not belong into economy ... that is just so wrong, morals should be the *driver* of economy, just as it is with slavery, toxic waste and many other things.

You misunderstand.  Others suggest that your morals don't belong in their economic decisions.  Also, I recommend not insulting the readership that you are attempting to convert, that has the tendency of limiting your moral authority.

In short: Morals trump "economic sense" every time and the later is not excuse for breaking the former!

In short, no they don't.  At least not morals as defined by you, anyway.

 In my view at least, some people are apparently perfectly willing to break their morals for economic/financial gain. I consider that wrong ... shoot me for it.

You will find that economic reality doesn't care what your opinion is, and for the most part, neither does anyone else.  And it's also unwise to tempt a bunch of liberty minded people, whom you have recently insulted, to shoot you.  Odds are high that many here could.

[MoonShadow]

If the speculators would be losing money they wouldn't speculate...

Oh, come on.  That's like saying, "If gamblers lost money, they wouldn't gamble."

Are you claiming that net effect of global speculation is loss for the speculators? The religious economists just *love* speaking in hypotheticals and they avoid comparing their made up scenarios with real world like a vampire garlic LOL

So? Are the speculators on average making money or losing it?

On average, neither.  But those who try it and fail, tend to not keep trying.  It's Darwinistic finance, in a way.

[Bruce Wagner]

@creighto   Your posts are very entertaining.  I laughed out loud a couple of times.  Thanks. 

[MoonShadow]

The thing is : most people here are BOTH capitalists AND liberals.    Well, at least I am.

Hmm, self-selection bias.  Everyone considers himself to be the moderate.

[Macho]

I know, personally, two people who grew up in two different countries... but both had this in common:  They worked in sweatshops most of their life.  And they would be the first to tell you...  They thank GOD for those sweatshops.   If it hadn't been for those sweatshops, they and their families would have likely starved to death.   

If there wouldn't be for sweatshops they would have real prosperous economy, owning nice houses and cars not worrying that they might starve to death tomorrow if the CEO of Nike chooses so. They do not have such economy because the corporations came there, set up their sweatshops, destroyed their competition by enormous power they have (thanks to exploiting other people in other countries), bribed politicians to pass "regulations" and "free trade" agreements making sure that no honest business can ever compete.

Your reasoning is EXTREMELY cruel and cynical. Go work for a sweatshop yourself if it's so wonderful, please do ... with the prospect of your children dying if you do not fulfill everything you're told, when your employer has the power *to kill you* for not obeying his wishes. that sure is a dream life. In that situation losing your work means a death sentence ... and the owners know it, that's why these CEOs are more like third world dictators spreading misery and death by colonizing more and more countries for their operations. But this is ok apparently according to you, this is the kind of people i said a despise ... scumbags! Willing to justify modern slavery by economic theory, sick! Just sick! It is no different than slavery other than a whipping to death was replaced by starving to death (by firing them) ... hard to say which is worse.

[grondilu]

It means they make few cents an hour keeping them barely alive while company like Nike is selling the shoes they make for hundreds of dollars in "first world" countries making HUGE profits for which their CEOs buy yachts and golf courses and jets to amuse themselves with.

Do you approve of such a practice? Do you consider it morally right and justified and it should be just that way?

I think those workers should form unions, go on strike and those kind of stuffs, in order to gain some better labour conditions.  I would understand that.  But I don't see what the employer is doing wrong, as long as he doesn't force anyone to work for him.

Criminal is whatever gov says is criminal, in most developed countries sweatshops are illegal (guaranteed minimal wage) so that is irrelevant.

I disagree.  Crime has some objecive sense, and law is only an attempt to express it.  As whether or not I approve sweatshop, it just seems to me that the notion is very subjective.  If a job is not forced, you can call it sweatshop if you want, but I will approve it.


Concerning Ponzi schemes, I don't really care about that.  I'm not even sure it's that bad if it is based on a lie.  Again, moral risk exists anyway.  You just have to be aware of it.

[MoonShadow]

Criminal is whatever gov says is criminal,

How can a statement so short be so wrong!?  No, government does not define what is criminal, government defines what it shall prosecute, and the differences are paramount.

Hit Google and search for the Two Laws of Civilization.  Those thirteen words accurately define all human law.  Any society that generally respects those two laws, even incidentally, tend to prosper; those that don't tend to decline.

[MoonShadow]

@creighto   Your posts are very entertaining.  I laughed out loud a couple of times.  Thanks. 

You're welcome, I'm just uncertain that my target audience understood the joke.

[grondilu]

Criminal is whatever gov says is criminal,

How can a statement so short be so wrong!? 

It is indeed very impressive.  I suggest Macho to consider laws of the past, for instance.  Prohibition in US, homosexuality in UK, slavery in France (not so long ago), and so on.

Saying that crime is only what gov says is criminal, is just amazing.  If the governement says the Earth is flat, I won't believe it.  It's just the same for crime.

[Macho]

@creighto you are self-contradicting yourself and are generally very confused about what you're talking about. If I was actually paying you for your services I would ask for my money back

You are confusing two things ... the fact that you're free to do something/anything and the fact how are you going to be judged when you do and how is it going to affect you.

Sure, you're free to walk trough the street cursing at everybody, it's not illegal ... but do not expect people to invite you to a party then. It's the equivalent as people (well, one person) not wanting to do business with me because they disagree with me.

But this is EXACTLY what I was doing from the very start, i was not saying ban ponzi schemes (as if it would be even possible with bitcoin, duh), I was saying recognize ponzi scheme, look here is one, stay away from it if you do not wish to loose all your money.

But I got attacked for pointing out these ponzi schemes, like speculative investment to make money from money ... by people saying that they have a right to make ponzi schemes (it's freedom to make scams). But you see, here is the confusion ... of course people have the right to make ponzi schemes, but bitcoin community should reject them on the informed basis that they're harmful to the economy and bitcoin and point that out when they see one to protect bitcoin economy. Do you understand the difference?

Why are people endorsing these scams? It's like I would be discouraging someone from cursing at everybody on the street and others would condemn me for it because he is free to do it, it's not criminal. It's crazy and confused logic ... that it's not illegal or you're free to do it doesn't mean it's right. the freedom we have entails a freedom to make a moral judgment of someone's actions and voice disagreement. That's exactly what I'm doing ...

Why are people making apologists for ponzi schemes then on the basis that people are free to make them ... I've never said they are not! I said it is immoral, harmful and should be opposed just like slavery is. I've never said they are not free to make them! Again, i said it's worrying that the bitcoin community is accepting them as "legitimate" use of the bitcoin system, that's the problem I see! nobody seems to realize the catastrophe if this is allowed to overtake on a large scale ... and i wanted to point that out

[Macho]

Criminal is whatever gov says is criminal,

How can a statement so short be so wrong!? 

It is indeed very impressive.  I suggest Macho to consider laws of the past, for instance.  Prohibition in US, homosexuality in UK, slavery in France (not so long ago), and so on.

Saying that crime is only what gov says is criminal, is just amazing.  If the governement says the Earth is flat, I won't believe it.  It's just the same for crime.

If you wouldn't be so prejudiced against me you would understand that i mean it in the same exact way as you do and therefore that was the gov says it criminal is irrelevant. They can make something criminal whenever they choose to, they can make it illegal to piss ... that doesn't mean it's wrong. I thought it's extremely clear from the context of my post ... apparently not if the prejudice is strong enough.

I also said that sweatshops are illegal (criminal) in some countries, in others not ... so it's clear that I can not mean it how you interpreted it from that too. You're trying too hard to disagree with me at all cost ... maybe you could stop that and I would make much more sense to you

[grondilu]

I also said that sweatshops are illegal (criminal) in some countries, in others not ... so it's clear that I can not mean it how you interpreted it from that too. You're trying too hard to disagree with me at all cost ... maybe you could stop that and I would make much more sense to you

Well, that wasn't very clear.  After all, you *did* write "criminal is whatever gov says is a crime".

But, to be fair, this sentence make sense, if you consider "crime" in a purely juridical meaning.  The thing is that crime is also a common notion, which is based on philosophy more than law.

[Macho]

Well, that wasn't very clear.  After all, you *did* write "criminal is whatever gov says is a crime".

yeah, what's wrong with that statement? It's true, isn't it?

However criminal doesn't necessarily mean wrong as has been pointed out that many outlandish things were criminal in the past that are not considered wrong now. The same goes for current laws ... most of them are lobbied for by the corporations trying to destroy their competition, get rid of regulations or give them certain advantages.

There is a difference between illegal and wrong, illegal (criminal) is whatever gov says is illegal ... wrong is what you morally consider wrong regardless of it's legality. I hope it's clear now ...

[hugolp]

I have not read the whole thread but,

it s ok to completely divorce economy from human values and physical production. This is the EXACT same nonsense we were bombarded with when deregulation of US economy was pushed bringing rise to such "useful financial instruments" like derivatives, "encouraging 'investment'", "stimulating economy" ... we've heard it all ...

What deregulation? Seriously what deregulation?!?

Please, stop parroting and repeating the official propaganda and go check the data. The number and size of regulation has increased, and a lot each decade, specially since the 50's. PLEASE CHECK THE DATA and see it by yourself.

Now, one can argue that the changes in regulation has been for better or for worse, but no one that is honest and checks the data (as opposed to believing the official propaganda) can say that there has been any deregulation. Its the contrary, there has been an increase in the size of the regulatory regime.

the bitcoin community is infested with mindless cheerleaders for profit thinking

Seriously? Do you really think this is the way to create a community? Infected?...

As I said I have not read the whole thread but I hope you have apologized or you plan to.

[FreeMoney]

Well, that wasn't very clear.  After all, you *did* write "criminal is whatever gov says is a crime".

yeah, what's wrong with that statement? It's true, isn't it?

However criminal doesn't necessarily mean wrong as has been pointed out that many outlandish things were criminal in the past that are not considered wrong now. The same goes for current laws ... most of them are lobbied for by the corporations trying to destroy their competition, get rid of regulations or give them certain advantages.

There is a difference between illegal and wrong, illegal (criminal) is whatever gov says is illegal ... wrong is what you morally consider wrong regardless of it's legality. I hope it's clear now ...

There is no government. There are only people who will hurt you for not doing as they say and people who won't. I won't hurt you and I won't command anyone to hurt you. I will buy and sell my bitcoins for whatever price I want whenever I want.

[Bimmerhead]

Okay Macho, help me understand more clearly what you are saying.

Are you saying that you believe speculation and sweatshops etc. are 'morally wrong', and you are spreading your viewpoint that they are morally wrong and that is all?  Are you saying that you would never support governmental prohibitions on these activities, just moral suasion?  Are you saying you would actually oppose a government who attempted to ban speculation?

If that is what you are saying, then I apologize for my early posts linking you to those tyrannizing moralizers of the 20th century, Communism and Fascism.

I fully support your right to free speech, including the right to persuade others of one's opinions, no matter how wrong-headed those opinions are.  If, however you do support the use of force (ie: the state) to impose your 'morality' on others, then we're back to square one.

[Bruce Wagner]

btw if you endorse intentional speculation for the sole purpose of profit then I'm still calling you a scumbag LOL

What about "speculation for the sole purpose of LOSING money"...  Are you saying that That's ok with you...?   ha ha

Speculation and "Ponzi schemes"... are simply gambling.  Nothing more and nothing less.   Gambling.    By DEFINITION, gambling involves risk -- great risk.   That means they often LOSE all of the money they're playing with.

You can say that gambling is "morally wrong".   But I totally disagree.   If the player of the game understands the terms and rules of the game, then it's certainly fair for them to play that game.

It harms no one.   (Unless they do it compulsively, to their own detriment.  But that's an entirely different topic.  Like drinking so much water that you drown yourself.  Too much of anything can kill you.)

In fact, YOUR very own bitcoin holdings are likely worth much more today than they were last month.  Likely, that increase in value is at least partially a result of investment by speculators.   So, since you believe that that increase in value is "morally wrong"...  Obviously, it would be "morally wrong" to profit from it (even though you took no risks at all, by the way. none whatsoever.)...  Who are you going to donate all that increased value to?   Some charity?  Some anti-gambling organization?   Of course, by your own logic....  It would be "morally wrong" for you to keep any increase in its value.    Right?!?

[Bruce Wagner]

I think this kinda sums up how I feel too...

I am proud of this community. Despite Macho's insults, you guys play it swell and didn't insult Macho back.

[MoonShadow]

@creighto you are self-contradicting yourself and are generally very confused about what you're talking about. If I was actually paying you for your services I would ask for my money back

You are confusing two things ... the fact that you're free to do something/anything and the fact how are you going to be judged when you do and how is it going to affect you.

I'm not confused at all.  I certainly hope that you are a teenager, because if you are an adult, you have a hard life ahead of you.  This conversation has reminded me of a saying from an old Russian immigrant, "If you are not a communist at twenty, then you have no heart; if you are still a communist at thirty, then you have no sense."

But I got attacked for pointing out these ponzi schemes,

No, you were attacked for being a cocksure wanker.

[MoonShadow]

I think this kinda sums up how I feel too...

I am proud of this community. Despite Macho's insults, you guys play it swell and didn't insult Macho back.

Well, I just broke that discipline.

[MoonShadow]

Well, that wasn't very clear.  After all, you *did* write "criminal is whatever gov says is a crime".

yeah, what's wrong with that statement? It's true, isn't it?

No, it's not.

[sirius]

My suspicions are confirmed, the "bitcoin community" (at least the significant part parroting their religious economic beliefs) is just a bunch of gullible children trotting out their holy text they've been indoctrinated into. They think that pretty charts and lines represent wealth and that profit is above all and justifies anything and everything. It's this kind of useful idiots who allowed the current crisis to materialize ... but they never learn, it's a religion and not to be questioned. Independent thought? Questioning the dogma? No!, Go away heretic ... we have Ludwig von Mises to tell us the ultimate truth! Ignore the real world, quick!

It's common but very immature to call somebody an "indoctrinated religious fanatic who can't think for himself and ignores reality" because he disagrees with you in a debate. These kinds of feelings are usually the speaker's own cognitive bias. Even if you're sure that it's not just your emotional fuss from the debate, it's better to keep these kinds of thoughts for yourself as they lead the discussion in no good direction.