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Author Topic: Why not to use AC with Bitcoin Mining?  (Read 3198 times)
takagari
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December 18, 2016, 05:10:31 PM
 #21

It's possible to use a cheap water AC, where water is sucked from a nearby pond or a well, flows in metal pipes in front of a fan and goes back to the pond. This system would eat up below 100W, but you'd need a water source and some skill to build it. Like this thing but industrial size.

I dont think it would produce a cold air inspite of letting the water from water source pass through that pipe.It wont guarantee it would give cool air anytime but i appreciate this kind of invention though. Well i cant conclude since i didnt experience to use or invent this.

That will infact produce a fair bit of cold air.
Or cooler air anyway, but most people do not have the setup for this.

It's actually looking to be a promising investment for a miner. This way miners will not have to buy expensive air conditioning units nor pay for the electricity of running them. I think this would cool the air it blows as the fan and metal pipes will absorb the hot air and the cool water inside the pipes will cool the air. Really nice invention. I wonder if this would also help cool my room on a hot sunny day.
Yes it would, if you are blowing air over anything cooler then the ambient air, then it will come off cooler
you could even get to a point where using water cooling on the miners tied tot hat system would be HUGELY effective.
But the initial setup cost would be HUGE

How about those liquid cooling system used for computers? Would those work for miners? I haven't seen anyone really make a liquid cooled miner so far. I think along with a fan which blows cool air, a liquid cooling device similar to computers would also be a good way to cool down miners while operating. Though, I think this would really be more expensive than air type coolers as this is already expensive on basic and gaming computer rigs.

Nothing off the shelf really any more. It's been done
Really all the ant miner boards are so close that if someone made a large one. They could maybe be moved from miner to miner,
Although I don't believe you can easily remove heat sinks off the latest models anymore.....

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December 19, 2016, 08:13:56 AM
 #22

You could still submerge your miners in mineral oil and set up a pump to circulate the oil through a cooler environment.

...probably the cheapest way to cool your miners imho.

compared to fancy AC systems and what not.

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takagari
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December 19, 2016, 03:31:51 PM
 #23

You could still submerge your miners in mineral oil and set up a pump to circulate the oil through a cooler environment.

...probably the cheapest way to cool your miners imho.

compared to fancy AC systems and what not.

True. Some simple pumps.
Car radiator. Hard to stop from getting hot spots though

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December 19, 2016, 03:43:40 PM
 #24

I've seen several people mention that using AC is not a good choice for Miner cooling, could someone explain why? (Don't worry, my current mining rig uses fans)
It will be increasing a lot your electricity cost, Over 15% in my opinions.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1348488.0
'


if you can make a 14mm or 16mm whit this, it would be superefficent that it will be able to have some sick overlocks as stock, maybe sp100 at 200thz or why not 300thz ?...

a fridge use like 80 watts and its alot bigger, a 80w + on the montly bitt on a sp100 , it would not harm anyone?, change the blocks whit liquid cooled and use the same system as the fridge?...

just saying 80watts for a fridge.

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takagari
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December 19, 2016, 04:39:50 PM
 #25

I've seen several people mention that using AC is not a good choice for Miner cooling, could someone explain why? (Don't worry, my current mining rig uses fans)
It will be increasing a lot your electricity cost, Over 15% in my opinions.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1348488.0
'


if you can make a 14mm or 16mm whit this, it would be superefficent that it will be able to have some sick overlocks as stock, maybe sp100 at 200thz or why not 300thz ?...

a fridge use like 80 watts and its alot bigger, a 80w + on the montly bitt on a sp100 , it would not harm anyone?, change the blocks whit liquid cooled and use the same system as the fridge?...

just saying 80watts for a fridge.

I have no idea what you are getting at?
You can't stick a miner in a fridge...

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December 19, 2016, 04:40:49 PM
 #26

<headbang>
How many times does it have to be said? A refrigerator keeps cold things cold. They are not made to be heat-removal devices and have only a very small heat-removal capacity! That is why they use so little power.

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Sweminer777
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December 19, 2016, 04:51:09 PM
 #27

<headbang>
How many times does it have to be said? A refrigerator keeps cold things cold. They are not made to be heat-removal devices and have only a very small heat-removal capacity! That is why they use so little power.


actually a fridge is a AC, wich keeps things cool but also disipates heat depending on the build of the "fridge".
Why you dont feal heat comming out because it have passive cooling, you might feel the top of your fridge warm. wierd?.


Put som fans on the Passive cooling heat pippes you got some cooling on going.

besides if you put your machines inside of a cold starage they stil have own fans to disipate heat and suck in cold air.


maybe think outisde the box?.

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December 19, 2016, 05:09:43 PM
 #28

You seem to have missed where I said
Quote
have only a very small heat-removal capacity
Yes they work the same as an air conditioner.
A very very small capacity one. As a systems designer I deal with heat movement equations all the time so perhaps you need to rethink the premise  of using a 'fridge... There is no 'out of the box thinking' required here, even knowing a smidgen about the thermodynamics involved says no.

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HagssFIN
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December 19, 2016, 05:25:18 PM
 #29

Yeah. Stop to think physics for a moment and then think about cooling miners with a fridge.
It is a no-go.

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December 19, 2016, 06:06:10 PM
 #30

<headbang>
How many times does it have to be said? A refrigerator keeps cold things cold. They are not made to be heat-removal devices and have only a very small heat-removal capacity! That is why they use so little power.


actually a fridge is a AC, wich keeps things cool but also disipates heat depending on the build of the "fridge".
Why you dont feal heat comming out because it have passive cooling, you might feel the top of your fridge warm. wierd?.


Put som fans on the Passive cooling heat pippes you got some cooling on going.

besides if you put your machines inside of a cold starage they stil have own fans to disipate heat and suck in cold air.


maybe think outisde the box?.

Man you cracked it,
Why use a high power AC unit when a little 8 watt fridge can cool just as good?

Please stick your miners in a fridge, and let us know how that works out for you.
The capacity it has to cool is VERY low, which is why it relies on insulation.

I'm not even sure why I'm bothering to argue this with you?

Here do a test.
Stick a 1000watt space heater in your fridge, close it up and let it go.
Than report back to us how long it took for your fridges compressors to blow

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December 19, 2016, 06:42:41 PM
 #31

<headbang>
How many times does it have to be said? A refrigerator keeps cold things cold. They are not made to be heat-removal devices and have only a very small heat-removal capacity! That is why they use so little power.


actually a fridge is a AC, wich keeps things cool but also disipates heat depending on the build of the "fridge".
Why you dont feal heat comming out because it have passive cooling, you might feel the top of your fridge warm. wierd?.


Put som fans on the Passive cooling heat pippes you got some cooling on going.

besides if you put your machines inside of a cold starage they stil have own fans to disipate heat and suck in cold air.


maybe think outisde the box?.







Man you cracked it,
Why use a high power AC unit when a little 8 watt fridge can cool just as good?

Please stick your miners in a fridge, and let us know how that works out for you.
The capacity it has to cool is VERY low, which is why it relies on insulation.

I'm not even sure why I'm bothering to argue this with you?

Here do a test.
Stick a 1000watt space heater in your fridge, close it up and let it go.
Than report back to us how long it took for your fridges compressors to blow




you all take this so directly, arent you supposed to be all enginers and mathematicians.


Like how the fuck is to hard to change the cooling system.


2fans and cut on alu blocks are cheap, for standard and non caring custommer.




Everyone gets their miners home and look how to improve efficience.
but nobody does the job?.


Poeple talking about renting cooled Service Centers to put their miners on.


So, if you can put AC on a big room why cant you put ac on a miner as big as the sp100?


the only optional cooling system was c1 and it was one of the best home miners of the times.


Now a home miner gotta sound like a jumbo jet.


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NotFuzzyWarm
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December 19, 2016, 11:16:14 PM
 #32

Quote
So, if you can put AC on a big room why cant you put ac on a miner as big as the sp100?
the only optional cooling system was c1 and it was one of the best home miners of the times.
#1: there is no 'sp100' and never will be. Spondoolies-Tech imploded long ago.

As for closed-loop cooling of said 10kw load, it's called using an enclosure or other way to channel all of the airflow through an industrial equipment enclosure cooler. Ones using chilled water and having pretty hefty blower are readily available up to around 30kw heat load while holding air temp to under 85F though at this point far better off using cold plate to directly cool the boards.

Yes the heat problem is removed from the immediate area of the miner(s) but now you have to pump the water elsewhere use a way to chill the water back down to around 40-45F (standard preferred water inlet temps for coolers). That all costs $$$ in a very cost sensitive business. Great if you live in the Artic so ya can use a dry cooler or have a cool running stream nearby to tap into but otherwise means more electric used. If using cold plates, ja Sidehacks upcoming miners could easily be put on them. AFAIK, in fact they should fitup to the C1 water blocks Smiley

as for
Quote
Everyone gets their miners home and look how to improve efficience.
but nobody does the job?.
Modding the likes of a s7 or s9 to use cold plate is economically impossible. Removing the glued heat sinks is uber difficult without damaging things... If you want to start carving into a very expensive miner be my guest and let us know how it turns out. (seriously, a how-I-did-it would be a great addtion)

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December 20, 2016, 10:51:38 PM
 #33

OK, finally time to share my secret for attaching a heat pump to a miner with 100% no loss in electricity to cool your farm:



A company called Dometic used to manufacture refrigerators for mobile applications.  They are a sealed system, no pump, no electricity in as far as cooling is concerned compared to a typical heat pump.  All you need to do is apply heat to the reservoir, and the condenser will get cold.....  This unit can run on gas heat to keep the fridge not using coach batteries on it's 12V heating element.

So..... if you pipe the hot air into it's evaporator section, it gets cold on the other side..... which you can pump the cold air right back into the miner.

If you don't know how a sealed ammonia/hydrogen setup works... read up.....   During the summer my fridge on my RV takes almost zero electricity to stay cold.....

It was a tough concept for me to swallow originally when I saw it had no compressor... so I did my research on the matter and was impressed.

Now;  I know;  it's just a heat pump; and far from 100% efficiency,  but;  at zero electricity cost, you are almost neutralizing the heat generated by the miners in a manner of speaking.....

Thoughts?
*edit* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Absorption_refrigerator

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December 20, 2016, 11:48:27 PM
 #34

Just need to pay for the propane/natural gas...
For a low BTU system like a refrigerator the heat input (gas) needed is minimal. Remember - a 'fridge does not deal with a continuous heat source in it. Put something warm in it and it eventually gets cold but - the 'something' is not generating more heat - it's losing it. But - scale the system up to handle a continuous heat input of several kW and your are talking about a much higher CU-ft/min of gas need to fire the (literal) boiler that gives the pressure differential needed for cooling.

To use a line from Robert A. Heinlein, 'There Is No Free Lunch'.

It would rather be like me using my house permanent 13kw backup genset - fueled by natural gas - to power my miners. Yes direct electric usage from the Utility is now zero. The gas bill however... dunna wanna think about it!

edit: ja, any source of heat to boil the working fluid will work, wood, coal, hell, even focused sunlight. I may be dating myself but at least through the 1960's you could by NG/Propane gas power household refrigerators and air conditioners. Probably still can for off-grid locations.

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December 21, 2016, 12:06:19 AM
 #35

That differential cooler is an interesting invention, especially for an apocalypse scenario. Allows you to keep food cold without electricity. And you don't even need propane/ natural gas. How about a coal furnace with auto feed? Much cheaper, can easily and constantly produce 20kW, which is enough energy to cool a large building. Of course you'd need a large enough heat pump to use all that energy.

Another idea is a heat pump with underground pipes, people use these things to cool down houses in summer.


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December 21, 2016, 12:33:12 AM
 #36

Just need to pay for the propane/natural gas...
For a low BTU system like a refrigerator the heat input (gas) needed is minimal. Remember - a 'fridge does not deal with a continuous heat source in it. Put something warm in it and it eventually gets cold but - the 'something' is not generating more heat - it's losing it. But - scale the system up to handle a continuous heat input of several kW and your are talking about a much higher CU-ft/min of gas need to fire the (literal) boiler that gives the pressure differential needed for cooling.

The expelled heat from the miners..... no need to spend on the gas when using a system that literally operates on warmth if you can design the unit to transfer the heat efficiently between the systems.   Granted;  usually its ~95*F+ that the system begins to work properly;  The miners can easily overcome this.  Check wikipedia on how the water/ammonia/hydrogen system works.  Pretty neat.

That differential cooler is an interesting invention, especially for an apocalypse scenario. Allows you to keep food cold without electricity. And you don't even need propane/ natural gas. How about a coal furnace with auto feed? Much cheaper, can easily and constantly produce 20kW, which is enough energy to cool a large building. Of course you'd need a large enough heat pump to use all that energy.

pretty insane once you think about it more and more.  The issue is the large set of pipes to dissipate bubbles/foaming in the system.  But Ill tell you this;  my ice box is just that;  I regularly have to shut it all off and chisel away tons of ice that builds up.



But I digress.  It's food for thought for sure.  I don't see why it wouldn't be possible at all.  The intake form the miners and exhaust from the miners will do all of the work;  you just have to pipe the air through the evaporator and condenser to the respective places and it should provide quite a temperature impact.

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December 21, 2016, 12:49:43 AM
 #37

Welll...
Technically one could possibly get significant re-use of the miners waste heat to power a fair sized room air conditioner? Directly use the miners as the boilers by using cold plates with the fluid flowing through them.

Keeping even a chip/plate temp of say 50-60C should give a fair bit of energy to drive the expansion side cold heat exchanger and generate some cool air. Ja there is still a net-gain in local heat generated (again, TINFL) but would be interesting to do the math so see just what the numbers are. If the cool air is fed back to the miners then ALL of the energy input will end up as local heat. Even if that energy input is used to  cool a different area, you now have the heat input from that to deal with so still no Free Lunch methinks...

Nice lil' twist to using AC with coin mining eh?

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December 21, 2016, 01:55:43 AM
 #38

wow what is the next idea going to be-oil miner baths to cool the ASICS?Smiley
wonder if it has been implemented, by the way
AC has to be as energy efficient as possible and current ones do not allow you to
cool it efficiently enough energy/efficiency wise
but anyhow it has to be calculated case by case,after all cooling is just additional energy cost added to your bills that delay ROI
there are some epic solutions and ideas in this thread,particularly the home made ac systems -feel they could be very useful if implemented correctly
100-200 W + a fan,metal pipe and assembly costs are low enogh to be worth trying it out

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nydiacaskey01
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December 21, 2016, 02:04:32 AM
 #39

I heard that inverter type AC's consumes less energy that those industrial type fans. A church near my house refrained from using those ceiling type fans in installed inverter type AC's and energy consumed is almost the same but effect of course is different because using AC gives out colder air than fans specially in a tropical country where I am from.

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coolcoinz
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December 22, 2016, 06:42:48 PM
 #40

Welll...
Technically one could possibly get significant re-use of the miners waste heat to power a fair sized room air conditioner? Directly use the miners as the boilers by using cold plates with the fluid flowing through them.

Keeping even a chip/plate temp of say 50-60C should give a fair bit of energy to drive the expansion side cold heat exchanger and generate some cool air. Ja there is still a net-gain in local heat generated (again, TINFL) but would be interesting to do the math so see just what the numbers are. If the cool air is fed back to the miners then ALL of the energy input will end up as local heat. Even if that energy input is used to  cool a different area, you now have the heat input from that to deal with so still no Free Lunch methinks...

Nice lil' twist to using AC with coin mining eh?
One could even go farther and make a deal with someone, who needs the heat and would be willing to pay for it, like farmers. As far as I know, hemp needs a steady, warm temperature and a bit of wind. This could be provided by the miners at constant rate to supply a fairly large greenhouse Wink


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