Attention: A-List Developers, $$$ Prize For....?

[Sage]

Say I want to kick start an open source, decentralized, peer-to-peer Bitcoin exchange platform.

Something with no central server, no central point of attack, yet still fast and viable...

Something that allows for the exchange of Bitcoins for pretty much anything else P2P... fiat, other cryptos, gold, silver etc.

...Almost like a decentralized E-bay platform.

How big of cash prize do I need to come up with to attract enough of an interest with A-list developers to get premium quality entries?

And what would A-list developers perceive as a fair judging criteria to award the prize to the best entry?

Please no trolls.  I'm serious about this.  Only A-list developers respond.

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[Elwar]

To just pay for the work it would probably be between 50 and 100 BTC.

To do it as an X prize type of incentive, multiply that by 2 to 5.

But you would have to solve the problem of fiat not being p2p.

[Logik]

Honestly, it's such a large undertaking that it falls into the realm of a startup venture and not some project that a single developer could put together.

It's not about a single developer, or even multiple developers, being skilled enough; its about the multidisciplinary talent and ongoing effort needed to pull it off.

I think if you had 1 financial, 1 business development / gm, and 2 developers and gave them, like, a year then they could probably build a MtGox competitor that matches all the descriptions you posted.

It really needs USA startup style venture funding but if you look at the Bitcoin startups coming out they are more centralized and closed source which is the opposite of what we want.

(I'm an 'A-list' developer and involved with startups in NZ/Australia for the past 3-4 years)
 

[Sage]

Honestly, it's such a large undertaking that it falls into the realm of a startup venture and not some project that a single developer could put together.

It's not about a single developer, or even multiple developers, being skilled enough; its about the multidisciplinary talent and ongoing effort needed to pull it off.

I think if you had 1 financial, 1 business development / gm, and 2 developers and gave them, like, a year then they could probably build a MtGox competitor that matches all the descriptions you posted.

It really needs USA startup style venture funding but if you look at the Bitcoin startups coming out they are more centralized and closed source which is the opposite of what we want.

(I'm an 'A-list' developer and involved with startups in NZ/Australia for the past 3-4 years)
 

Understand.  But how big a cash prize would it take for some teams to self organize and take it on?  And are we really talking a year time frame?  If we set it up X-prize style what kind of time frames do you think to pull it off?

[akhavr]

As already mentioned by other posters, the problem is not with exchange software being p2p.  Problem is in interfacing with fiat currencies. 

Say, I'm willing to buy BTC1 from you at market rate of USD233.  How will you get those USD233?  How you will make sure that USD side of transaction is non-reversible?

If you'd decide to operate in an escrow mode, like current exchanges do, you'll be centralized organizationally, while the software would be still p2p.  But, I guess, your intent would be to create p2p exchange infrastructure, not mere p2p exchange software?

[Sukrim]

Ripple already exists in beta - and even there it is still hard to interface with fiat currencies (not only from the software but also from the legal side).

[Logik]

Understand.  But how big a cash prize would it take for some teams to self organize and take it on?  And are we really talking a year time frame?  If we set it up X-prize style what kind of time frames do you think to pull it off?

The problem in general is that putting a bounty or cash prize just wouldn't work. Lets say you offer a bounty, find a person or team, and they build the software and collect the prize. Then what? They just leave? The software would need constant work and upkeep, the exchange would need vision and leadership as the market and Bitcoin itself change with time, there would be ongoing legal and press tasks, and so on and so on.

Now, the logical answer to this issue is that the exchange would make a profit, and it would use the profit to pay people to do these things... but now we've just described a business/company. More accurately we've described a new company in a new tech field - which is pretty close to most people's definition of a startup. The thing is that it would be a really terrible startup because it wasn't, well, started properly.

You'd need a capitalized startup with, like, $1M in funding and at least a year, but probably less if there could be an agreement reached with one of the existing Bitcoin purchasing services to use their fiat deposit infrastructure.

Technical info:

FWIW if I was doing this I would base it on HTML5 and use WebRTC which is a method of using true P2P technology right inside the browser, with no plugins. Instead of a website I would use an installable web app which is a relatively new feature in Chrome and Firefox. That gives you the ease of distribution of a browser with the benefits of true decentralization. The  fiat deposit aspect could be implemented by a third party with the existing banking infrastructure and people's 'fiat balance' would be decided by an additional p2p blockchain similar to the Bitcoin one. So there would be nothing to DDOS. You would need decentralised confirmation of a persons fiat balance and then decentralised confirmation of each trade into Bitcoin.

But like I say it's not the technical aspect that is the blocker here.

If I wasn't ass-deep in my own startup and several side projects and spending all my spare time on the forums I would probably pitch this to someone.

[alberthendriks]

I'm glad that you found out the issue with fiat currency. I'm sorry for spamming the forum, but I hate to have 10 different startups with the same goal. So I'm saying again what I'm saying everywhere, I think it would be good if we all joined the same p2p exchange project; and for me personally I think bitcoinx has the best chances. I'm joining them!

[Cosmorph]

Check out Ripple
https://ripple.com

Basically solves all the problems you've mentioned and is... by the way, a financially well backed startup.

Cheers

[BTCLuke]

Lets say you offer a bounty, find a person or team, and they build the software and collect the prize. Then what? They just leave? The software would need constant work and upkeep, the exchange would need vision and leadership as the market and Bitcoin itself change with time, there would be ongoing legal and press tasks, and so on and so on.

You... Just aren't getting our needs, bro.

What you're talking about is the very definition of the word "Centralized."

The number one criteria for this project... A project that is intended to protect the price and even the existence of bitcoin through any kind of government assault... Is DECENTRALIZATION.

It HAS TO operate like bitcoin, with it's own dev community around the world and no ownership or keys for uncle sam to swoop in and swipe.

Think of it as a bitcoin-like, peer-to-peer client program that is both a secure wallet and a book of orders. The only challenge I really see is getting Fiat money into that wallet... That's it though. Bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies can obviously get in there without any fuss, but getting USD or other nationalized currency in it is the real stumbling block.

Because the order side is actually pretty obvious. Each client has a real-time book of orders, and when the client turns on, it searches for all of the other clients within an acceptable Pingtime of it, and announces itself to them.

At that point, you see any orders on your book as well as all orders on the books you're within range of.

Let's say you're in Baltimore. John down in DC and Mary up in Newark have placed trade requests to all books within range, and want to make a trade with each other. Since you're inbetween them and happen to be the node with the shortest overall traceroute, your client is agreed upon by all parties to be the one that "makes the trade" and therefore gets the fee.

...The fee part is especially powerful, because similar to mining, this means that everyone who just keeps their client software turned on can earn passive income! This would be such a powerful incentive that it alone could make the whole project competitive to the best centralized exchange like Mt.Gox.

Anyway, that's my elevator pitch for what bitcoin needs to survive. Sure, it's limiting trades to regions instead of the global trades that Mt.Gox and others enjoy today; but not too many people believe that centralized exchanges will even be allowed to exist tomorrow.

Besides; who wouldn't want to use an exchange totally anonymously, like bitcoin itself? Isn't that the bitcoin promise, finally delivered?

So in my opinion, it's just a matter of time before a completely decentralized exchange is the normal way to trade cryptocurrencies. Governments will force us to make it, and this damn price volatility we have from all the DDos attacks & the central point of failure (MtGox) pretty much necessitates it as well.

[marcus_of_augustus]

Think of it as a bitcoin-like, peer-to-peer client program that is both a secure wallet and a book of orders. The only challenge I really see is getting Fiat money into that wallet... That's it though. Bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies can obviously get in there without any fuss, but getting USD or other nationalized currency in it is the real stumbling block.

I think I could have the answer to this problem. The Open Source P2P could create it's own fiat voucher standardised format that any of the existing fiat handlers (BitInstant, Dwolla, OKPay, or whoever e.g. those guys selling MegaVouchers) can use.

Basically it needs to create a P2P fiat voucher standard that anybody can use ... like the MtGoxUSD, LibertyReserve or any number of vouchers for sale on AurumXchange https://www.aurumxchange.com/ such that there would P2PUSD, P2PEUR, P2PGBP, etc fiat vouchers for buying/selling at any interested fiat exchanger.

User then takes those P2P fiat vouchers and uses them to trade on P2P exchange for btc. That could be a basic strategy but the devil will be in details, prevent double spend attempts, crypto-escrow for trading, etc.

[BTCLuke]

I think I could have the answer to this problem. The Open Source P2P could create it's own fiat voucher standardised format that any of the existing fiat handlers (BitInstant, Dwolla, OKPay, or whoever e.g. those guys selling MegaVouchers) can use.

Basically it needs to create a P2P fiat voucher standard that anybody can use ... like the MtGoxUSD, LibertyReserve or any number of vouchers for sale on AurumXchange https://www.aurumxchange.com/ such that there would P2PUSD, P2PEUR, P2PGBP, etc fiat vouchers for buying/selling at any interested fiat exchanger.

Just what I was thinking. In fact, perhaps something out there like OKPay or LR has created the format already that these can use too. It'll take research either way.

User then takes those P2P fiat vouchers and uses them to trade on P2P exchange for btc. That could be a basic strategy but the devil will be in details, prevent double spend attempts, crypto-escrow for trading, etc.

Escrow! Of course!

Not only would the middleman be the book or orders, he could act as a quick-release Escrow service too!

Alright, so we have a client that is:

• A secure wallet for many different currencies, so it's user can participate on the exchange.
• A Book of orders so that other users can trade on his machine.
• A trading view, which splices together his own book of orders with all the trades available from other clients.
• An Escrow service for the traders, so neither one of them can have an advantage over the other. (I assume this would take another secure mini-wallet inside the client, dedicated to this use.)
• A settings panel so that you can set your latency threshold, fees and fee thresholds.

It's really starting to become obvious that bitcoin's fate will depend on this tech taking off sooner or later. I could even see it becoming part of Bitcoin itself one day...

[Logik]

Lets say you offer a bounty, find a person or team, and they build the software and collect the prize. Then what? They just leave? The software would need constant work and upkeep, the exchange would need vision and leadership as the market and Bitcoin itself change with time, there would be ongoing legal and press tasks, and so on and so on.

You... Just aren't getting our needs, bro.

What you're talking about is the very definition of the word "Centralized."

The number one criteria for this project... A project that is intended to protect the price and even the existence of bitcoin through any kind of government assault... Is DECENTRALIZATION.

Ok, but you say this:

The only challenge I really see is getting Fiat money into that wallet... That's it though. Bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies can obviously get in there without any fuss, but getting USD or other nationalized currency in it is the real stumbling block.

We're talking about two different things here then. What you described is entirely the point of an exchange. You can't theorize an exchange and just say "oh well then we have to figure out the fiat". It's all about the fiat. That's like saying we'll design an aircraft and then just figure out later how to make it fly. What I describe is, I think, the most feasible way that the world would have something which is as close to MtGox as possible while being immune to DDOS and central control of the infrastructure. That's what people need. You know things can be decentralized and still have governing bodies right? Look at the internet.

I understand what you're describing in your post, but I don't think that it's realistic solution to anything because a) it seems to considers fiat as a secondary concern and not a primary one and b) it only considers software.

Do you what is, in my opinion, the number one shortcoming of software developers (remember that I am one)? They only think about the software. But the software isn't the challenge here. The software isn't the bottleneck.. this is a world of technology geeks - if we wanted to we would have software designs out the wazoo. The challenge is  financial, legal, and organisational, and a bunch of computer geeks aren't going to solve those problems.

I do believe in community driven projects, but they just aren't applicable to 100% of tasks. Do you think MtGox or Bitstamp or whatever could be created and run in that way that you describe?

[justusranvier]

You can't theorize an exchange and just say "oh well then we have to figure out the fiat". It's all about the fiat. That's like saying we'll design an aircraft and then just figure out later how to make it fly.

What you are saying makes perfect sense.

It has no place in this discussion.

[Seal]

The IT side, i get what you're trying to do.

However you can't decentralise the fiat payment system? Or have I got the wrong idea here???

[Sage]

The IT side, i get what you're trying to do.

However you can't decentralise the fiat payment system? Or have I got the wrong idea here???

Fiat is handled by the brokers on the system in the thousands of ways fiat is currently transferred.  The system never touches fiat.