Is taxation theft?

[BADecker]

Just curious, how do you get out of taxes in the US? Legally, I mean, of course.

Basically, there are two parts to this. The first is your property. The second is voluntarily signing your property over to someone else by agreement. Ever heard the IRS say "voluntary compliance?" The focus is to get you to sign on some line somewhere.

Give Me Liberty or Give Me Property Rights!

Property, Freedom, and Society: Essays in Honor of Hans-Hermann Hoppe, edited by Jörg Guido Hülsmann and Stephan Kinsella.

Frank van Dun (FvD) offers his view on this question in his essay entitled Freedom and Property: Where They Conflict.  If I may summarize his essay in the form of a question: if the objective of libertarian theorizing is anything other than securing freedom, then why are we wasting our time?  He wouldn't say it that way, as I suspect he is too much the gentleman.  Such concerns rarely stand in my way!

The question may prompt an obvious retort: what is the difference?  The non-aggression principle, properly and fully applied, will result in freedom.  FvD will disagree.

Libertarian theorists like to trace social and economic problems to coercive, usually government-imposed or sanctioned interventions in the free market or restrictions on the exercise of the libertarian rights of self-ownership, private appropriation and use of material resources, and exchange by mutual consent.

Thus, proper application of the non-aggression principle is all that is necessary for freedom to flourish. Property, Freedom, and... Jorg Guido Hulsmann Best Price: $12.88 Buy New $14.39 (as of 05:25 EDT - Details) This is fine as far as it goes—but how far does it go? As we shall see below, respect for the above-mentioned libertarian rights is not in itself sufficient to guarantee the freedom of every person. There may be cases where there is a conflict between claims on behalf of one person's freedom and claims on behalf of another person's private property. This is one of those "approach with real caution" essays; if one doesn't draw an absolute line around private property, where does one end on the slippery slope to full-blown socialism?  By the end of this essay, you will find that I am taking the wimpy way out…at least for this day.

Where there is such conflict, which should prevail: your freedom or my property?  I have in the past, and continue to believe today, that your freedom to have me bake a cake for you doesn't trump my property rights in my oven.  FvD is working through an issue not as easily solvable as this…but still, the issue of the slippery slope must be recognized and dealt with.

As a libertarian – and for a libertarian – it is difficult to give up on this "freedom as property" notion.  First of all, it is the basis for the most effective arguments against government interventions of all sorts (well, second, perhaps, to moral arguments…but few people listen to these).  Second, it undercuts the idea that libertarian law is nothing beyond the most rigorous application of the non-aggression principle.

But is the objective property or is it freedom?  What happens if there is a conflict, which one wins?  If the winner is anything other than property – in every situation – then where does the line get drawn – and how powerful must the line be to avoid sliding down the slippery slope to hell?

Read more at https://www.lewrockwell.com/2018/08/bionic-mosquito/give-me-liberty-or-give-me-property-rights/.

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[discoverblockchain]

I think this is a very hard question to answer, it really depends also on what is done with the taxes

[yogg]

Yes, taxation in it's current form is theft. As long as transparent accounting isn't provided, and budgets allocated by a voting process.

We should be able to chose which community we want to live in, "subscribe" to their "fee" (whatever role taxation has today) but in a transparent way.
In that way, they are accountable for every coin that was sent there. And you would be free to chose one or the other community that you prefer. Each with it's own rules.

Nothing set in stone. Nothing that behove to you from birth that you cannot easily change.

[actmyname]

-snip snap-

Unfortunately, you won't be able to do much about it. The voting process even in a "democratic" country usually isn't dissimilar to a prisoner's dilemma problem. Unless there is a severe tonal shift in the human nature of deciding things, we'll see the same steadfast deadlock of political stagnancy.That being said, taxes are good and bad. Some parts of the budget are well-spent and the others are just spent. Everyone has their own opinions on this, which is where we get into problems.

As for me, I'm with Carlin on this one.

[mockcooleat]

Taxation is not a theft but those who use it for their own benefits and not to the tax payer are the thieves. This also can be realted to the saying about MONEY, money is not the root of all evil but the LOVE for it. If someone becomes devoted to money alone they become greedy and is consumed by it.

[FilesFM_Official]

Im a happy tax payer but unfortunately I live in a country where the politicians and banks are totally corrupt (Latvia) I mean when you have a population of 1.8million but 23 big established banks you can imagine we are here to clean money for Russia, EU and other nations. I just wished the tax I'm happy to pay wouldn't line the pockets of corrupt government officials and would be spent on the people who need it. A country like Latvia has a shitty welfare system where the average salary is 500$ a month, and benefits if you need them are little to none existent.

[makel0ve]

Frankly speaking, I think that taxation is a good thing, rich people pay more, and poor people pay less. But the key question is whether the taxes received can be used for implementation rather than being corrupted.

[BADecker]

Frankly speaking, I think that taxation is a good thing, rich people pay more, and poor people pay less. But the key question is whether the taxes received can be used for implementation rather than being corrupted.

Where do rich people get their money? They sell products and services to the poor... when they are not defrauding the poor, that is. So, where do they get their wealth that they hand over to government in the form of taxes? From the poor.

[BADecker]

Taxation is not a theft but those who use it for their own benefits and not to the tax payer are the thieves. This also can be realted to the saying about MONEY, money is not the root of all evil but the LOVE for it. If someone becomes devoted to money alone they become greedy and is consumed by it.

Taxes are not theft because they are legal. Taxes are legal because some people got together and said they are legal.

The Declaration of Independence says that all people are created equal.

Taxes are theft because they are illegal. Taxes are illegal because some people got together and said they are illegal.

Sounds like you have the right to make taxes legal or illegal by what you say.

If you say taxes are legal, who are you saying they are legal for? Certainly not for yourself. Because as soon as you agree to pay taxes, they become a donation for you... not taxes.

So, if you say taxes are legal, who are you really saying they are legal for? For the people who say that taxes are illegal, of course. This means that you want to steal money/property from other people, and get government to do your dirty work for you.

If you say taxes are illegal, what are you really saying? You are saying that people should be allowed to do with their own money/property whatever they like. If they want to donate to government, let them. If they don't want to, don't force them.

[fairyvibes]

We are all part of a society, I don't see a problem paying tax if it helps build roads, infrastructure, and helps the less fortunate so they wont be stuck in poverty.

[BADecker]

We are all part of a free society. Why should somebody else be allowed to force me to pay for stuff I don't want in my freedom in society? Why can't we all buy what we want, and donate to what we want? Is our society free or not?

[HODL_guy]

No, I totally don't think so. Taxation just represents how a successful society and country may create public effort to make our environment more comfortable and convenient.

[eann014]

Personally, I do feel it is theft, I never consented to any taxation. I feel that this video helps explain the video quite well https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PGMQZEIXBMs

I didn't agree that taxation is a theft, theft is getting a money without knowing the people you are getting from them. Taxation is all around the government and it is also helpful for our country because paying the right amount of tax can help our community grow if the government will not corrupt that money and put it inside their pocket. If we have a very good government then tax is always on a good hand.

[Elwar]

*beep* *oop* *burp*
*I am a robot*
*tax is not theft if money is spent right*
*end of transmission*
*derp* *fap* *boop*

[BADecker]

No, I totally don't think so. Taxation just represents how a successful society and country may create public effort to make our environment more comfortable and convenient.

Taxation just represents how a
portion of society, or
a small dictatorial group in a society
can rule over a society.

If you voluntarily agree to be taxed, and then pay,
they aren't taxes for you. All they are is organized donations (contributions).

If you don't agree to be taxed,
but are forced or threatened into paying,
only then are they taxes for you.

Force or threat of force is what equates taxes with robbery.
Taxation is reduction of freedom.

[Elwar]

*beep* *oop* *burp*
*I am a robot*
*tax is not theft it is your civic responsibility*
*end of transmission*
*derp* *fap* *boop*

[BADecker]

tax is a civic responsibility a gainfully employed citizen owe to his/her country, its an obligation you owe to your country, so as a responsibly employed citizen, it is imperative one pays his or her income tax to the government of ones country, but what i am against and will never support is multiple taxation, that is theft.

If they can force taxation once, they can do it twice, and can go all the way if they want, and make you their slave. If you enjoy slavery, and you voluntarily pay, then it is not taxation for you. Rather, it is organized donation (contribution).

Actually, they have gone all the way. You are their slave. And I am receiving the bounty from your taxation slavery. Please keep on volunteering. I am enjoying being paid by you.

[yogg]

"Heard from a French entrepreneur, a demonstration with figures that enlightens the reasons for our high unemployment rate.
When I give 100€ "gross" to one of my employees, in fact, it costs me 150€ because of all charges I have to pay for that.
From these 100 gross euros, my employee will get around 70€ after salary taxes deduction.
Then, he'll have to pay revenue taxes on this salary, around 30%, which will be 21€. So he has 49€ left.
However, on top of that, everything he buys has a 20% VAT tax on it, so, really, his purchasing power is only 39€.
End of the story, on 150€ spent on an employee, he'll get 39€ and the state gets 110€.
That's the cost of labour in France. This is how we have killed our industry and jobs. And if there is nothing done, this will only get worse..."

[SimonOdell]

No it's not theft it's a payment you make for the  privilege of living in a civilized society.

If you don't want to be taxed at all, then your free to move to the jungle where there are no taxmen, but also no roads, schools, firemen, police, hospitals, etc etc.

I'm not a communist, but I tell you what, if my house was on fire I would not want to have to check if I had paid my
subscription to the fire-brigade service before ringing them up and asking for their help to save my property from my
bad luck.

People who want to live in a society and contribute nothing towards it but still want to be helped by that society in all
the myriad ways that society helps its members out, are some sort of selfish scumbags IMHO.

[BADecker]

No it's not theft it's a payment you make for the  privilege of living in a civilized society.

If you don't want to be taxed at all, then your free to move to the jungle where there are no taxmen, but also no roads, schools, firemen, police, hospitals, etc etc.

I'm not a communist, but I tell you what, if my house was on fire I would not want to have to check if I had paid my
subscription to the fire-brigade service before ringing them up and asking for their help to save my property from my
bad luck.

People who want to live in a society and contribute nothing towards it but still want to be helped by that society in all
the myriad ways that society helps its members out, are some sort of selfish scumbags IMHO.

If I don't want it, but am forced to pay it, it is a tax. That's robbery.

Look at Brazil and many African governments to see that there is taxation in the jungle.

If I and a bunch of other people don't want government services, why should we be forced to pay for them. For example, those stupid roads are in the way of the rights-of-way so that I can't use the rights-of-way without having to travel on the stupid roads. And the dumb cops are worse than the crooks at times, but seem to be almost immune to prosecution. Stop taxing me so that I have enough funds to buy decent services, and the services I want... not the services you and a bunch of government jerks want me to have. What you and government are promoting is robbery.

Build a concrete house, and you won't need a fire brigade. What need do I have of a fire brigade when my house is concrete and I have my personal fire prevention installed? Why are you charging me through taxation to pay for your lack of wisdom in building your house?

I want to live in a society that buys what they want, or donates to help others... not a society that steals my money property from me.