Ask The IRS to define the dollar

[Bungeebones]

This video explains the legal issues involved when trying to find the legal definition of "dollar". Dr Edwin Vieirra has 4 PHDs from Harvard, is an attorney and member of the bar in many states and has argued cases successfully before the US Supreme Court.

here's where it matters with regards to the IRS. THEY have decided that Bitcoin is property and that i/when the owner sells it then the seller is responsible to report their gain (or loss) related to the value of the "dollar". Since the IRS creates and prints the forms and they are legal documents (signed under penalty of perjury) then it is VERY IMPORTANT to use the correct ;egal standard when reporting any income.

https://vimeo.com/2865332

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[zeze18]

This video explains the legal issues involved when trying to find the legal definition of "dollar". Dr Edwin Vieirra has 4 PHDs from Harvard, is an attorney and member of the bar in many states and has argued cases successfully before the US Supreme Court.

here's where it matters with regards to the IRS. THEY have decided that Bitcoin is property and that i/when the owner sells it then the seller is responsible to report their gain (or loss) related to the value of the "dollar". Since the IRS creates and prints the forms and they are legal documents (signed under penalty of perjury) then it is VERY IMPORTANT to use the correct ;egal standard when reporting any income.

https://vimeo.com/2865332

Sorry sir, I do not understand what is meant by the IRS I hope you want to give an explanation of the IRS?
thank you,,,

[cryptoanalyzer]

Yeah could you explain a little on IRS?

[Bungeebones]

Yeah could you explain a little on IRS?

  https://www.irs.gov/

[maku]

So, basically IRS forced the law (is is even possible to do something like that without wide consensus of other financial institutions?) that benefit the state (in terms of collecting more taxes from Bitcoin users) more.
I thought that US Treasury classified bitcoin as virtual currency in 2013, also bitcoin was categorized as  such by various courts - i.e. Texas US District Court.
Amazing how paper pushers can be so two-faced and label bitcoin as currency and commodity at the same time.

[zeze18]

Yeah could you explain a little on IRS?

  https://www.irs.gov/

thank you sir,,, this link (https://www.irs.gov/) are very helpful for me,,,

[Bungeebones]

So, basically IRS forced the law (is is even possible to do something like that without wide consensus of other financial institutions?) that benefit the state (in terms of collecting more taxes from Bitcoin users) more.
I thought that US Treasury classified bitcoin as virtual currency in 2013, also bitcoin was categorized as  such by various courts - i.e. Texas US District Court.
Amazing how paper pushers can be so two-faced and label bitcoin as currency and commodity at the same time.

yes, but the IRS classified it totally different from the other branches of government. They declared it property (for tax purposes). What that ruling requires taxpayers to do is to report the value gained in the "dollars". The problem, as I see it, is that we (the US and others) don't use actual dollars, and they are, instead, actually Federal Reserve Notes. They were, at one time, promises to pay actual dollars but that is no longer true. In fact, they are no longer even notes, as they exist only in digital form in bank ledgers. So, since the IRS requires taxpayers to report their Bitcoin earnings in "dollars" they should be able to clarify this little point quite easily. Their actions indicate that a Federal Reserve Note somehow and someway became the very thing (i.e. a dollar) that it was promising to pay. Such an occurrence surely would be recorded clearly either in statute or case law. I don't believe the FRN ever became the dollar so we (taxpayers) need it to be clearly identified if we are to report our earnings based on that standard.

[AgentofCoin]

So, basically IRS forced the law (is is even possible to do something like that without wide consensus of other financial institutions?) that benefit the state (in terms of collecting more taxes from Bitcoin users) more.
I thought that US Treasury classified bitcoin as virtual currency in 2013, also bitcoin was categorized as  such by various courts - i.e. Texas US District Court.
Amazing how paper pushers can be so two-faced and label bitcoin as currency and commodity at the same time.

yes, but the IRS classified it totally different from the other branches of government. They declared it property (for tax purposes). What that ruling requires taxpayers to do is to report the value gained in the "dollars". The problem, as I see it, is that we (the US and others) don't use actual dollars, and they are, instead, actually Federal Reserve Notes. They were, at one time, promises to pay actual dollars but that is no longer true. In fact, they are no longer even notes, as they exist only in digital form in bank ledgers. So, since the IRS requires taxpayers to report their Bitcoin earnings in "dollars" they should be able to clarify this little point quite easily. Their actions indicate that a Federal Reserve Note somehow and someway became the very thing (i.e. a dollar) that it was promising to pay. Such an occurrence surely would be recorded clearly either in statute or case law. I don't believe the FRN ever became the dollar so we (taxpayers) need it to be clearly identified if we are to report our earnings based on that standard.

The term "dollar" is only used as a representative of United States' currency.
It is like saying the "Euro" or the "Pound". It is only a denomination now.

Originally, the "dollar" was backed by gold and silver with the US Treasury.
Later, I think under Nixon, the laws were changed to remove precious metals
fully and depend entirely on Fiat currency.
Now, the "dollar" is backed by assets and debts with the Federal Reserve.

Whatever the "dollars" backing was and is today, the IRS do not care.
They think that US Dollars are the same as Federal Reserve Notes.
If the law in certain areas uses the term "dollars" they will interpret as
"federally approved US currency" which is actually 'Federal Reserve Notes".
Otherwise, no US Citizens would be able to legally and literally pay their taxes
or other debts, since "true dollars" no longer exist or are in circulation.

[Bungeebones]

So, basically IRS forced the law (is is even possible to do something like that without wide consensus of other financial institutions?) that benefit the state (in terms of collecting more taxes from Bitcoin users) more.
I thought that US Treasury classified bitcoin as virtual currency in 2013, also bitcoin was categorized as  such by various courts - i.e. Texas US District Court.
Amazing how paper pushers can be so two-faced and label bitcoin as currency and commodity at the same time.

yes, but the IRS classified it totally different from the other branches of government. They declared it property (for tax purposes). What that ruling requires taxpayers to do is to report the value gained in the "dollars". The problem, as I see it, is that we (the US and others) don't use actual dollars, and they are, instead, actually Federal Reserve Notes. They were, at one time, promises to pay actual dollars but that is no longer true. In fact, they are no longer even notes, as they exist only in digital form in bank ledgers. So, since the IRS requires taxpayers to report their Bitcoin earnings in "dollars" they should be able to clarify this little point quite easily. Their actions indicate that a Federal Reserve Note somehow and someway became the very thing (i.e. a dollar) that it was promising to pay. Such an occurrence surely would be recorded clearly either in statute or case law. I don't believe the FRN ever became the dollar so we (taxpayers) need it to be clearly identified if we are to report our earnings based on that standard.

The term "dollar" is only used as a representative of United States' currency.
It is like saying the "Euro" or the "Pound". It is only a denomination now.

Originally, the "dollar" was backed by gold and silver with the US Treasury.
Later, I think under Nixon, the laws were changed to remove precious metals
fully and depend entirely on Fiat currency.
Now, the "dollar" is backed by assets and debts with the Federal Reserve.

Whatever the "dollars" backing was and is today, the IRS do not care.
They think that US Dollars are the same as Federal Reserve Notes.
If the law in certain areas uses the term "dollars" they will interpret as
"federally approved US currency" which is actually 'Federal Reserve Notes".
Otherwise, no US Citizens would be able to legally and literally pay their taxes
or other debts, since "true dollars" no longer exist or are in circulation.

You got it! "Otherwise, no US Citizens would be able to legally and literally pay their taxes
or other debts, since "true dollars" no longer exist or are in circulation.".

And if the words in laws have no meaning then there is no law. That is why every statute ever written ahs all the terms defined. So, just ask them that question and, rather than open that can of worms, they will quietly go away from Bitcoin. If they really press it, there is NO US Dollar and there hasn't been for a long time. The fraud of the Federal Reserve Note would  be out in the open. The more publicity they generate, the more people see "The Emperor has No Clothes".

But one very important correction regarding your statement  "Originally, the "dollar" was backed by gold and silver with the US Treasury.". The truth is that, originally, the dollar WAS  SILVER, not backed by it. That little twist of truth and meaning enabled them to slip the FRN in as being "the dollar" as it was what was backed by gold and silver. The dollar was silver, and legally is still the only dollar.

[NUFCrichard]

I don't really get what you are trying to point out here.
The dollar's value in other currencies, commodities and Bitcoin varies all the time. You will need a time stamp of the exchange rate at the time of buying Bitcoin and the time of selling bitcoin.

The difference in dollar value will be taxable.

You can argue the semantics of the USD and if it has any value at all, but the IRS won't care. If you feel that it is worth arguing, I would suggest that you don't bring it up with them personally, unless they audit you!
Otherwise I think you might find that they suddenly want to audit you, and may not be too interested in your definition of the USDs value!

[Bungeebones]

I don't really get what you are trying to point out here.
The dollar's value ...

You mean the fraudulent Federal Resrve Note here, don't you? Why do you have such a problem recognizing it as the worthess piece of shit it is? Does calling it after something that used to have legitimate value (and still does if you recognize it as the silver coin) make you feel better or more "American" or something? That's the danger, getting into WWIII just to protect thevalue of the worthless piece of shit it is. We already fought the Gulf wars to protect the FRN - how many more you willing to do? Nukes?

in other currencies, commodities and Bitcoin varies all the time. You will need a time stamp of the exchange rate at the time of buying Bitcoin and the time of selling bitcoin.


The difference in dollar value will be taxable.

My point exactly! The difference in value between the FRN and the real dollar is a factor of 20. So, go ahead and give them 20 times more taxes than they are legally entitled to and tell me about your mastery of the English language and semantics. I suggest you do some review of basic grammar and math yourself.

You can argue the semantics of the USD and if it has any value at all, but the IRS won't care. If you feel that it is worth arguing, I would suggest that you don't bring it up with them personally, unless they audit you!
Otherwise I think you might find that they suddenly want to audit you, and may not be too interested in your definition of the USDs value!

So it sounds like we agree that the IRS is indeed hiding behind a veil of FUD (Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt). While i appreciate your encouragement for me to throw myself on the landmine, I'll pass. I would not wait to the point where I am being audited to bring this up with them (if at all). But if they are suddenly inundated with thousands of requests (any attorneys not afraid of the IRS?) to clarify the legal definition of a dollar so we can accurately determine the value of our earnings in LEGAL dollars (and not in worthless, piece of shit, IOU nothing but shit Federal Reserve kiss my ass NOTES) then we can get on with paying our lawfully owed taxes. Succumbing to the the IRS FUD just opens the doors to even more tyranny than we already have.