icbit.se refusing to release funds

[StevenPine]

Hello,

is anyone else having trouble removing funds from icbit.se? Currently me and my business partner have our accounts frozen by the admin who refuses to release btc into our possession. Although in the past they have honored their agreements, this current situation (given the mtgox freeze), icbit.se admins seem to be succumbing to fear. Our margins are covered, we simply wish to remove the excess from the exchange.

Please post in here if you are having similar issues.

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[Fireball]

An official comment:

With the situation at Mt.Gox, we are unable to manage risks in full as the spot price is basically unknown. Margin requirements were temporary increased, so withdrawal requests which would normally be processed are pending now (because otherwise they may not be able to sustain payout requirements of a BTC/USD-4.13 contract due to settle in a couple of days).

We have to care about both sides of the market, and will gladly reduce margin requirements as soon as the market stabilizes (at least opens).

[StevenPine]

Hi Fireball,

thank you for your response. pasted below is the exchange between admin and my business partner(gorilla):

[04/11 16:54] gorilla: but margin is there for default
[04/11 16:55] halconnen: then whoever wants to come and make money can buy it down
[04/11 16:55] halconnen: short future and buy coin
[04/11 16:55] halconnen: easy money
[04/11 16:55] alpet: this can be normal, if variation margin freezed while contango extreme
[04/11 16:55] gorilla: I've dropped lots of btc into icbit
[04/11 16:55] alpet: but bears always loose for negative VM
[04/11 16:56] halconnen: no, risk is the same both ways
[04/11 16:56] alpet: delta-neutral positions (buy bitcoins, sell futures) is not possible )
[04/11 16:56] gorilla: and it's been great but i can't stick with an exchange that freezes funds for hour
[04/11 16:57] gorilla: I'm talking with coinsetter to be part of their beta
[04/11 17:01] gorilla: ive never complained about anything on this exchange all is fair except when contract is violated due to one persons "moral" views
[04/11 17:03] gorilla: i fail to see too much difference between admin freezing funds or Cyprus officials freezing funds.
[04/11 17:05] halconnen: oshi- gorilla just went cyprus up in this
[04/11 17:05] marco_magno: alpet, why delta-neutral is not possible? you can buy coins, sit on them and sell future at the same time..?
[04/11 17:06] random_cat: no, you have to constantly rehege because they payoffs are in different currencies
[04/11 17:07] gorilla: is it not similar halconnen?
[04/11 17:08] admin: gorilla: sorry, it's just safety management
[04/11 17:09] admin: we don't store much funds in the hot wallet
[04/11 17:09] gorilla: margin is reserved, yes but the rest of your funds are supposed to be yours, thus not up to admin whether or not you can withdraw it spend them
[04/11 17:09] admin: I will look up and process your funds right away
[04/11 17:09] admin: ah, do you have an open position?
[04/11 17:09] waytogo777: Cyprus is a nation, so no analogy here
[04/11 17:09] gorilla: i do several of my withstand are too much at this point and should be canceled
[04/11 17:10] gorilla: thank you admin. and i do appreciate you attention to security
[04/11 17:12] admin: ok, sorry, but this case is different.
[04/11 17:12] gorilla: ?
[04/11 17:12] admin: You have a relatively large position in a futures, and you want to withdraw non-reserved money
[04/11 17:12] admin: which would mean you may be open to margin call
[04/11 17:12] admin: if price moves lower
[04/11 17:12] gorilla: yes
[04/11 17:12] admin: are you aware of that?
[04/11 17:12] halconnen: non-reserved money is non-reserved money, isnt it?
[04/11 17:12] gorilla: completly
[04/11 17:13] admin: halconnen: yes, but there is a thing called Unrealized P/L.
[04/11 17:13] gorilla: i thought about it and though some of my friend are adding to prevent margin call. i am going to risk only one more clearing
[04/11 17:14] gorilla: my withdrawals have been on hold since last clearing
[04/11 17:14] admin: But you should *sell* your futures, not just silently go away with money
[04/11 17:14] admin: it hugely increases the risk of the exchange
[04/11 17:15] gorilla: i have no intention of trying to withdraw margin. that i understand is what i committed
[04/11 17:15] admin: yes, absolutely, the system won't let you anyway, but
[04/11 17:15] admin: even for BUJ3, which is very near
[04/11 17:15] admin: its lowest margin is 133.255
[04/11 17:15] gorilla: but everything else i am entitled to no?
[04/11 17:16] admin: as long as you have open positions, you have floating, marked-to-marked Profit/Loss
[04/11 17:16] gorilla: yes
[04/11 17:16] gorilla: and it never goes above margin correct?
[04/11 17:17] fozner: been trying to close them out heh, need big window or maybe some lube (sorry)
[04/11 17:17] gorilla: my reserved margin is more than enough to pay the p/l
[04/11 17:17] mor70: how long my withdraval would be pending?
[04/11 17:18] admin: allright, I will increase the margin requirement to make sure at least BUJ3 could be settled properly.
[04/11 17:18] gorilla: is that not the rules? you gamble your margin and are guaranteed at most your margin daily?
[04/11 17:19] admin: yes, but you keep open positions through the clearing
[04/11 17:19] admin: I'm mostly concerned with BUJ3
[04/11 17:19] admin: as settlement is just 3 days away
[04/11 17:19] admin: and spot market is crashing
[04/11 17:19] gorilla: but my contract were not bought with your new rules
[04/11 17:19] admin: it's not new rules
[04/11 17:19] admin: it's simple risk management
[04/11 17:20] gorilla: you are changing margin requirement mid contract?
[04/11 17:20] admin: yes!
[04/11 17:20] admin: margin requirements are not constant
[04/11 17:20] halconnen: there are no rules on risk management
[04/11 17:20] admin: they are never constant on ANY exchange
[04/11 17:20] gorilla: i see
[04/11 17:21] marco_magno: admin is right.. margin req change in any commodity market
[04/11 17:21] admin: especially for a market like BTC
[04/11 17:21] admin: whcih goes from $250 to $120 within a few hours
[04/11 17:21] admin: how would I pay bears?
[04/11 17:21] admin: again from my own pocket?
[04/11 17:21] gorilla: will you then agree to let me withdraw whatever is left over ?
[04/11 17:21] halconnen: admin can change trading ranges as he sees fit, clear twice in 2 hours or 2 minutes if he wants, he could even change his definition of what a dollar is
[04/11 17:22] admin: if market doesn't collapse tomorrow, then you'd be free to withdraw as much as you like (without touching reserved amount)
[04/11 17:22] fozner: 63 looks like the bottom for btc-e
[04/11 17:22] random_cat: something i am not undersanding here, gorilla. if you want to withdraw all, you close all your positions.
[04/11 17:22] admin: halconnen: I already heard how you are buying all BUM3 offers just an hour ago ;-)
[04/11 17:22] halconnen: I'm not buying bum3
[04/11 17:22] admin: random_cat: absolutely
[04/11 17:23] admin: otherwise it's like trying to slip away with money and leaving all risks to the exchange
[04/11 17:23] fozner: 60 actually
[04/11 17:23] gorilla: but i an
[04/11 17:23] gorilla: i am absolutely not trying to slip away with all the money
[04/11 17:23] waytogo777: Position limits, jus sayin'
[04/11 17:23] gorilla: only what is not in margin
[04/11 17:24] fozner: Can buy coin to cover positions.
[04/11 17:24] random_cat: position limits are certainly a good idea. especially if negotiation can lift the limits
[04/11 17:24] gorilla: and my withdrawn request was made before you decided to change margin requirement
[04/11 17:24] fozner: get 'em cheap on btc-e
[04/11 17:24] random_cat: (i.e. miners have a natural interest in shorting the market)
[04/11 17:25] waytogo777: people with big positions in a thin market which is moving 100% in hours seems good to me.
[04/11 17:25] gorilla: so to be clear admin: you are not releasing any of my funds?
[04/11 17:26] admin: Let me see about the margin
[04/11 17:27] admin: Is spot market $127 ?
[04/11 17:27] random_cat: haha!
[04/11 17:27] jbdreau: lol
[04/11 17:27] gorilla: i had 60 btc ~18 in margin when i first tried to withdraw. now i have 40 and so still
[04/11 17:27] random_cat: otc seems to have sellers at around 110 and btc-e seems to have sellers around 70
[04/11 17:27] gorilla: 18 in margin
[04/11 17:27] waytogo777: Giving this extraordinary market condotions I'd say Admin is doing a great job.
[04/11 17:28] admin: waytogo777: Thats' because I have to pay for every my mistake :-)
[04/11 17:28] gorilla: but you are keeping all of it till you feel like danger to exchange is over?
[04/11 17:28] admin: Biggest spot market is absent right now
[04/11 17:28] admin: so how can I be sure in anything?
[04/11 17:29] admin: I can't even properly calculate margin requirement
[04/11 17:29] admin: it's supposed to be a fraction of $10
[04/11 17:29] gorilla: so you are keeping my money?
[04/11 17:29] gorilla: is it my money or yours?
[04/11 17:29] admin: yours
[04/11 17:30] vibornoff: admin, just raise his margin level ^)
[04/11 17:30] admin: but vested into a futures
[04/11 17:30] gorilla: i would like whatever money that is mine returned to me please!
[04/11 17:30] halconnen: admin, are you sure you should even be trading when the biggest exchange is down/being manipulated?
[04/11 17:30] waytogo777: it does take some balls
[04/11 17:30] halconnen: they feel its in their best interest to let things cool
[04/11 17:31] admin: halconnen: we were doing maintenance for 5 hours today, nice coincedence
[04/11 17:31] admin: gorilla: moment
[04/11 17:31] halconnen: airquotes "maintenance" should continue for 12 hours starting now
[04/11 17:32] gorilla: i am sincere when i say i feel that contact has been broken here
[04/11 17:32] halconnen: let gox reestablish a spot price for a few hours
[04/11 17:33] random_cat: i notice btc24, btc-e, and bitstamp all seem to agree that the spot price is about 65USD
[04/11 17:33] random_cat: for now
[04/11 17:33] gorilla: i must go but i do feel my case is solid And Not Just Crying About A Losing Position
~~~


The full chat is pasted below for reference:

04/11 16:48] halconnen: alpet, I got liquidated on multiple times, and margin called unfairly, I'm familiar with the risks
[04/11 16:48] alpet: fozner, you trying buy biticoins for USD or futures for bitcoins?
[04/11 16:48] fozner: USD
[04/11 16:48] waytogo777: Yes alpet, $100 over spot is a hefty premium
[04/11 16:48] halconnen: but there has to be some rules as to what the admin can do, otherwise why are we trading on a commodity through an exchange rather than just peer to peer?
[04/11 16:49] halconnen: the rules are what make the exchange
[04/11 16:49] alpet: hal, other bulls I think margin-called today
[04/11 16:49] halconnen: yep, but I have plenty of money in my account, and I add more so I can keep my position
[04/11 16:49] alpet: fozner, try to buy 0.1 BTC at 111 ask
[04/11 16:49] halconnen: no one willing to buy me out of it yet
[04/11 16:50] halconnen: except the admin, who can move the trading price at whim
[04/11 16:50] halconnen: doesnt even have to buy my position, just type in a number
[04/11 16:50] fozner: well that one worked
[04/11 16:51] alpet: hal, I think common couterparty risk problem be solved, but in later days volatility is extra-ordinally.
[04/11 16:52] halconnen: but under no circumstances should the trading range be manually adjusted, if bears want the market down they have to sell
[04/11 16:52] alpet: here two ways to prevent big risk: rise buyer initial margin up to 90%, or strict price range
[04/11 16:53] aammoccia: sorry admin
[04/11 16:53] halconnen: it is nowhere near september, the risk is far off
[04/11 16:53] aammoccia: what's wrong with with Withdrawal?
[04/11 16:53] halconnen: if it takes a month or two for the range to get down to spot that is fine
[04/11 16:54] halconnen: aammoccia, he's manually approving all withdrawls to prevent default
[04/11 16:54] aammoccia: aaaaaaaah
[04/11 16:54] aammoccia: thanks
[04/11 16:54] alpet: hal, you position is monopoly. There is no more bears, so if buy always buy at up limit... you can manipulate future price to $1000
[04/11 16:54] gorilla: but margin is there for default
[04/11 16:55] halconnen: then whoever wants to come and make money can buy it down
[04/11 16:55] halconnen: short future and buy coin
[04/11 16:55] halconnen: easy money
[04/11 16:55] alpet: this can be normal, if variation margin freezed while contango extreme
[04/11 16:55] gorilla: I've dropped lots of btc into icbit
[04/11 16:55] alpet: but bears always loose for negative VM
[04/11 16:56] halconnen: no, risk is the same both ways
[04/11 16:56] alpet: delta-neutral positions (buy bitcoins, sell futures) is not possible )
[04/11 16:56] gorilla: and it's been great but i can't stick with an exchange that freezes funds for hour
[04/11 16:57] gorilla: I'm talking with coinsetter to be part of their beta
[04/11 17:01] gorilla: ive never complained about anything on this exchange all is fair except when contract is violated due to one persons "moral" views
[04/11 17:03] gorilla: i fail to see too much difference between admin freezing funds or Cyprus officials freezing funds.
[04/11 17:05] halconnen: oshi- gorilla just went cyprus up in this
[04/11 17:05] marco_magno: alpet, why delta-neutral is not possible? you can buy coins, sit on them and sell future at the same time..?
[04/11 17:06] random_cat: no, you have to constantly rehege because they payoffs are in different currencies
[04/11 17:07] gorilla: is it not similar halconnen?
[04/11 17:08] admin: gorilla: sorry, it's just safety management
[04/11 17:09] admin: we don't store much funds in the hot wallet
[04/11 17:09] gorilla: margin is reserved, yes but the rest of your funds are supposed to be yours, thus not up to admin whether or not you can withdraw it spend them
[04/11 17:09] admin: I will look up and process your funds right away
[04/11 17:09] admin: ah, do you have an open position?
[04/11 17:09] waytogo777: Cyprus is a nation, so no analogy here
[04/11 17:09] gorilla: i do several of my withstand are too much at this point and should be canceled
[04/11 17:10] gorilla: thank you admin. and i do appreciate you attention to security
[04/11 17:12] admin: ok, sorry, but this case is different.
[04/11 17:12] gorilla: ?
[04/11 17:12] admin: You have a relatively large position in a futures, and you want to withdraw non-reserved money
[04/11 17:12] admin: which would mean you may be open to margin call
[04/11 17:12] admin: if price moves lower
[04/11 17:12] gorilla: yes
[04/11 17:12] admin: are you aware of that?
[04/11 17:12] halconnen: non-reserved money is non-reserved money, isnt it?
[04/11 17:12] gorilla: completly
[04/11 17:13] admin: halconnen: yes, but there is a thing called Unrealized P/L.
[04/11 17:13] gorilla: i thought about it and though some of my friend are adding to prevent margin call. i am going to risk only one more clearing
[04/11 17:14] gorilla: my withdrawals have been on hold since last clearing
[04/11 17:14] admin: But you should *sell* your futures, not just silently go away with money
[04/11 17:14] admin: it hugely increases the risk of the exchange
[04/11 17:15] gorilla: i have no intention of trying to withdraw margin. that i understand is what i committed
[04/11 17:15] admin: yes, absolutely, the system won't let you anyway, but
[04/11 17:15] admin: even for BUJ3, which is very near
[04/11 17:15] admin: its lowest margin is 133.255
[04/11 17:15] gorilla: but everything else i am entitled to no?
[04/11 17:16] admin: as long as you have open positions, you have floating, marked-to-marked Profit/Loss
[04/11 17:16] gorilla: yes
[04/11 17:16] gorilla: and it never goes above margin correct?
[04/11 17:17] fozner: been trying to close them out heh, need big window or maybe some lube (sorry)
[04/11 17:17] gorilla: my reserved margin is more than enough to pay the p/l
[04/11 17:17] mor70: how long my withdraval would be pending?
[04/11 17:18] admin: allright, I will increase the margin requirement to make sure at least BUJ3 could be settled properly.
[04/11 17:18] gorilla: is that not the rules? you gamble your margin and are guaranteed at most your margin daily?
[04/11 17:19] admin: yes, but you keep open positions through the clearing
[04/11 17:19] admin: I'm mostly concerned with BUJ3
[04/11 17:19] admin: as settlement is just 3 days away
[04/11 17:19] admin: and spot market is crashing
[04/11 17:19] gorilla: but my contract were not bought with your new rules
[04/11 17:19] admin: it's not new rules
[04/11 17:19] admin: it's simple risk management
[04/11 17:20] gorilla: you are changing margin requirement mid contract?
[04/11 17:20] admin: yes!
[04/11 17:20] admin: margin requirements are not constant
[04/11 17:20] halconnen: there are no rules on risk management
[04/11 17:20] admin: they are never constant on ANY exchange
[04/11 17:20] gorilla: i see
[04/11 17:21] marco_magno: admin is right.. margin req change in any commodity market
[04/11 17:21] admin: especially for a market like BTC
[04/11 17:21] admin: whcih goes from $250 to $120 within a few hours
[04/11 17:21] admin: how would I pay bears?
[04/11 17:21] admin: again from my own pocket?
[04/11 17:21] gorilla: will you then agree to let me withdraw whatever is left over ?
[04/11 17:21] halconnen: admin can change trading ranges as he sees fit, clear twice in 2 hours or 2 minutes if he wants, he could even change his definition of what a dollar is
[04/11 17:22] admin: if market doesn't collapse tomorrow, then you'd be free to withdraw as much as you like (without touching reserved amount)
[04/11 17:22] fozner: 63 looks like the bottom for btc-e
[04/11 17:22] random_cat: something i am not undersanding here, gorilla. if you want to withdraw all, you close all your positions.
[04/11 17:22] admin: halconnen: I already heard how you are buying all BUM3 offers just an hour ago ;-)
[04/11 17:22] halconnen: I'm not buying bum3
[04/11 17:22] admin: random_cat: absolutely
[04/11 17:23] admin: otherwise it's like trying to slip away with money and leaving all risks to the exchange
[04/11 17:23] fozner: 60 actually
[04/11 17:23] gorilla: but i an
[04/11 17:23] gorilla: i am absolutely not trying to slip away with all the money
[04/11 17:23] waytogo777: Position limits, jus sayin'
[04/11 17:23] gorilla: only what is not in margin
[04/11 17:24] fozner: Can buy coin to cover positions.
[04/11 17:24] random_cat: position limits are certainly a good idea. especially if negotiation can lift the limits
[04/11 17:24] gorilla: and my withdrawn request was made before you decided to change margin requirement
[04/11 17:24] fozner: get 'em cheap on btc-e
[04/11 17:24] random_cat: (i.e. miners have a natural interest in shorting the market)
[04/11 17:25] waytogo777: people with big positions in a thin market which is moving 100% in hours seems good to me.
[04/11 17:25] gorilla: so to be clear admin: you are not releasing any of my funds?
[04/11 17:26] admin: Let me see about the margin
[04/11 17:27] admin: Is spot market $127 ?
[04/11 17:27] random_cat: haha!
[04/11 17:27] jbdreau: lol
[04/11 17:27] gorilla: i had 60 btc ~18 in margin when i first tried to withdraw. now i have 40 and so still
[04/11 17:27] random_cat: otc seems to have sellers at around 110 and btc-e seems to have sellers around 70
[04/11 17:27] gorilla: 18 in margin
[04/11 17:27] waytogo777: Giving this extraordinary market condotions I'd say Admin is doing a great job.
[04/11 17:28] admin: waytogo777: Thats' because I have to pay for every my mistake :-)
[04/11 17:28] gorilla: but you are keeping all of it till you feel like danger to exchange is over?
[04/11 17:28] admin: Biggest spot market is absent right now
[04/11 17:28] admin: so how can I be sure in anything?
[04/11 17:29] admin: I can't even properly calculate margin requirement
[04/11 17:29] admin: it's supposed to be a fraction of $10
[04/11 17:29] gorilla: so you are keeping my money?
[04/11 17:29] gorilla: is it my money or yours?
[04/11 17:29] admin: yours
[04/11 17:30] vibornoff: admin, just raise his margin level ^)
[04/11 17:30] admin: but vested into a futures
[04/11 17:30] gorilla: i would like whatever money that is mine returned to me please!
[04/11 17:30] halconnen: admin, are you sure you should even be trading when the biggest exchange is down/being manipulated?
[04/11 17:30] waytogo777: it does take some balls
[04/11 17:30] halconnen: they feel its in their best interest to let things cool
[04/11 17:31] admin: halconnen: we were doing maintenance for 5 hours today, nice coincedence
[04/11 17:31] admin: gorilla: moment
[04/11 17:31] halconnen: airquotes "maintenance" should continue for 12 hours starting now
[04/11 17:32] gorilla: i am sincere when i say i feel that contact has been broken here
[04/11 17:32] halconnen: let gox reestablish a spot price for a few hours
[04/11 17:33] random_cat: i notice btc24, btc-e, and bitstamp all seem to agree that the spot price is about 65USD
[04/11 17:33] random_cat: for now
[04/11 17:33] gorilla: i must go but i do feel my case is solid And Not Just Crying About A Losing Position
[04/11 17:33] halconnen: random_cat: those exchanges also are harder to get money into
[04/11 17:33] fozner: bitfloor finally quit after I sucked 1 btc out of their spread
[04/11 17:33] halconnen: so the bull side of things is not expressed fully
[04/11 17:34] waytogo777: Lessons learned, when volatility increases dramatically increase margins.
[04/11 17:34] random_cat: yes, halconnen, or at least different to get money into
[04/11 17:34] random_cat: otc ticker is not indicating many trades
[04/11 17:34] halconnen: unless they accept gox coupons, and gox is issuing them, I would not use that as a spot price
[04/11 17:35] supertyler: this issue has been coming for a while - the reserved margin should be just that, limited to the "reserved" part
[04/11 17:35] halconnen: people have a lot of money tied up in gox that will take 3-6 days bank transfer to get access to
[04/11 17:35] GleasSpty: What does the L mean?
[04/11 17:36] waytogo777: Lost at Sea
[04/11 17:36] yrral86: not sure what it stands for but it indicates you have an order at that price.... I think
[04/11 17:36] halconnen: limit order
[04/11 17:36] admin: Limit
[04/11 17:39] waytogo777: In a Peer to Peer exchange without a clearing corp, there is give and take
[04/11 17:40] ccars2: Admin, I have a withdrawal "pending" in my account. Has it actually been sent yet, and if not, can you cancel it?
[04/11 17:40] waytogo777: I mean btc declined 82% from the high in 24 hours
[04/11 17:41] supertyler: Admin - is there really no robust way to prevent trading losses from occuring?
[04/11 17:41] halconnen: waytogo, 82% is from where to where?
[04/11 17:41] supertyler: i mean in margin liquidation calls
[04/11 17:41] waytogo777: 266 to 50 something, I did it in my head
[04/11 17:41] random_cat: gox is not issuing coupons
[04/11 17:42] halconnen: so all the prices at other exchanges are artificially low
[04/11 17:42] halconnen: its basically only allowing sells
[04/11 17:42] random_cat: untrue; they are possibly different, possibly lagging, but not artifically low
[04/11 17:42] waytogo777: Hal, I take the high print to the lowest low (so far)
[04/11 17:43] random_cat: bitstamp has a tendancy to be high
[04/11 17:43] random_cat: sorry.. i mean bitfloor, not bitstamp
[04/11 17:46] random_cat: it's not like SEPA transfer is arduous
[04/11 17:46] marco_magno: Admin, when is the next clearing?
[04/11 17:48] halconnen: hopefully at least after gox has been up for a few hours
[04/11 17:49] waytogo777: That order book on bitstamp doesn't look good for the bulls
[04/11 17:50] halconnen: heh a lot of the other sites were trading at 88 when gox was at 140
[04/11 17:51] waytogo777: That's to be expected in a panic sell off
[04/11 17:52] boomerlu: no, the reason is that transfer fees are so high that anybody who would have done the arb to shuffle the btc back and forth turned off
[04/11 17:52] boomerlu: and it's not trivial to turn back on
[04/11 17:53] boomerlu: plus inability to short
[04/11 17:53] waytogo777: a bunch of sellers in 100 lots btc and one buy at 50.08
[04/11 17:53] boomerlu: lag time of transfers
[04/11 17:56] krany: how can i read the trading range via api or similiar?
[04/11 17:57] waytogo777: For example: in the S&P pit in the crash of 87 there were two prices on each side of the pit,and that's an organized exchange
[04/11 17:57] supertyler: BTC-E seems to be trading $5 higher than Bitstamp
[04/11 17:59] waytogo777: So much for that one guys idea that btc was in wave 3, that shit rarely works
[04/11 17:59] supertyler: ICBIT exchange seems to be trading $30 higher than bitstamp - haha
[04/11 18:00] waytogo777: in a tiny market like btc $50 difference seems about fine
[04/11 18:01] random_cat: bitstamp, btc-e, and mtgox tend to stay within 10%
[04/11 18:02] waytogo777: i'd say 10% is damn good
[04/11 18:02] random_cat: i'll start arbing two of those if it gets any farther apart under 'normal' conditions
[04/11 18:03] waytogo777: you guys got balls, I got age
[04/11 18:04] random_cat: often they're much tighter
[04/11 18:06] waytogo777: correct me if I'm wrong, but the deal here is if the counter-party of your trade has a margin call but can't meet it then the trade is cleared?
[04/11 18:06] random_cat: right now there is an offer of 20% in otc
[04/11 18:06] random_cat: yes, waytogo777
[04/11 18:06] waytogo777: ty
[04/11 18:08] waytogo777: OK, in extraordinary markets I can see that but will that prevail when things calm down?
[04/11 18:09] random_cat: well... low volatility and high liquidity should preclude that, right? but we don't have those
[04/11 18:10] waytogo777: in which case the trade price might not be as important as who the counter-party is?
[04/11 18:10] random_cat: before the bulls were nervous and now the bears are

[StevenPine]

An official comment:

With the situation at Mt.Gox, we are unable to manage risks in full as the spot price is basically unknown. Margin requirements were temporary increased, so withdrawal requests which would normally be processed are pending now (because otherwise they may not be able to sustain payout requirements of a BTC/USD-4.13 contract due to settle in a couple of days).

We have to care about both sides of the market, and will gladly reduce margin requirements as soon as the market stabilizes (at least opens).

How can you temporarily increase the margin call? I do not understand how you can decide to change the agreement without us also agreeing to the change? We willing put so much up for risk, and yet you are deciding we are forced to risk more than we agreed upon when we first purchased the futures contract. This isn't how you conduct business.

[StevenPine]

for full reference a post has also been posted here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=50817.720

given the rules of the forum (where the thread owner can edit posts?) If a third party would like to begin a thread I would be perfectly amenable to moving the discussion over there.

[bV]

An official comment:

With the situation at Mt.Gox, we are unable to manage risks in full as the spot price is basically unknown. Margin requirements were temporary increased, so withdrawal requests which would normally be processed are pending now (because otherwise they may not be able to sustain payout requirements of a BTC/USD-4.13 contract due to settle in a couple of days).

We have to care about both sides of the market, and will gladly reduce margin requirements as soon as the market stabilizes (at least opens).

How can you temporarily increase the margin call? I do not understand how you can decide to change the agreement without us also agreeing to the change? We willing put so much up for risk, and yet you are deciding we are forced to risk more than we agreed upon when we first purchased the futures contract. This isn't how you conduct business.

This exchange has a track record of arbitrarily changing the rules as it sees fit. They are not contracts in the eyes of this exchange, but just words written on a webpage that they can disregard as they see fit.

They are also manipulating trade ranges essentially devaluing the market as they see fit instead of allowing people to sell down to what they deem as its valuation. Just today they manually adjusted the price down $130, without allowing for selling on the way down. Locking the price closer to spot without allowing trades in between is not just unfair, its outright theft. It is in direct breech of contract which states the maximum move per trading session is 10%.

Just this week they agreed not to do manual clearing, instead relying on more frequent scheduled clearing, which they have disregarded as well. Having a trading session of only 6 minutes, this is a new low even for them.

[Kato]

for full reference a post has also been posted here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=50817.720

given the rules of the forum (where the thread owner can edit posts?) If a third party would like to begin a thread I would be perfectly amenable to moving the discussion over there.

StevenPine

I empathise with the fact that you feel an agreement is being breached. However you have counter-parties on the other side whose agreements should also not be breached.
I think you are being either a little disingenuous or naive here. If you take your non-margined BTC, you know you will be leaving your futures counter-parties holding part of your loss, do you not?
The site admin is doing all they can in the circumstances given there is currently not an open spot market in BTC.

[Fireball]

An official comment:

With the situation at Mt.Gox, we are unable to manage risks in full as the spot price is basically unknown. Margin requirements were temporary increased, so withdrawal requests which would normally be processed are pending now (because otherwise they may not be able to sustain payout requirements of a BTC/USD-4.13 contract due to settle in a couple of days).

We have to care about both sides of the market, and will gladly reduce margin requirements as soon as the market stabilizes (at least opens).

How can you temporarily increase the margin call? I do not understand how you can decide to change the agreement without us also agreeing to the change? We willing put so much up for risk, and yet you are deciding we are forced to risk more than we agreed upon when we first purchased the futures contract. This isn't how you conduct business.

Not margin call, but margin requirements. It's a normal practice of every exchange out there, so you can check with any third party to make sure we are right. When you are buying or selling a contract, your risk is NOT limited by initial or maintenance margin. Margin is just an exchange's way to manage risks, nothing more than that.

Again, it's nothing ICBIT-specific. It's normal for any futures exchange out there, big and small.

[StevenPine]

for full reference a post has also been posted here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=50817.720

given the rules of the forum (where the thread owner can edit posts?) If a third party would like to begin a thread I would be perfectly amenable to moving the discussion over there.

StevenPine

I empathise with the fact that you feel an agreement is being breached. However you have counter-parties on the other side whose agreements should also not be breached.
I think you are being either a little disingenuous or naive here. If you take your non-margined BTC, you know you will be leaving your futures counter-parties holding part of your loss, do you not?
The site admin is doing all they can in the circumstances given there is currently not an open spot market in BTC.

Hey Kato,

we aren't trying wiggle out from our counterparty obligations, but what's happening is not manual clearance but forced margin % changes. admin is currently ruling that margin conditions can change as they see fit. If that's the sort of exchange people want to trade on... 

[Fireball]

If that's the sort of exchange people want to trade on... 

"marco_magno: as an example, see all the list of margin changes happened in LME: http://www.lchclearnet.com/risk_management/ltd/margin_rate_circulars/lme/default.asp "

If you don't agree with that rules, then you should trade only on the spot market.

[StevenPine]

We asked to withdraw funds before you changed the margin conditions, we also have been asking what for are the current margin requirements, when clearance will be made, and what assets (if any) our considered ours.

When will you do the next clearance? Are you going to allow Mt.Gox to trade for a few hours to find a suitable spot price? How large is the current margin? We are fine with folllowing the rules, the problem is the sudden changes without notice. It becomes very difficult to make an informed decision when the market conditions are at the whim of one individual.

[Fireball]

When will you do the next clearance? Are you going to allow Mt.Gox to trade for a few hours to find a suitable spot price? How large is the current margin? We are fine with folllowing the rules, the problem is the sudden changes without notice. It becomes very difficult to make an informed decision when the market conditions are at the whim of one individual.

As scheduled, at 08:00 UTC. This allows Mt.Gox to trade a few hours to establish suitable spot price. The current margin is "large enough", however due to absent spot price, it's not possible to find a good estimate of the margin. Being fair means that, obviously we are not doing any margin calls now.

[StevenPine]

When will you do the next clearance? Are you going to allow Mt.Gox to trade for a few hours to find a suitable spot price? How large is the current margin? We are fine with folllowing the rules, the problem is the sudden changes without notice. It becomes very difficult to make an informed decision when the market conditions are at the whim of one individual.

As scheduled, at 08:00 UTC. This allows Mt.Gox to trade a few hours to establish suitable spot price. The current margin is "large enough", however due to absent spot price, it's not possible to find a good estimate of the margin. Being fair means that, obviously we are not doing any margin calls now.

quoted for reference.

would you like to further characterize "large enough" and for those currently showing a negative amount, do you expect them to cover that amount before they are allowed to resume trading?

[J_Coin]

After complaining that I couldn't withdraw funds not reserved by margin, Icbit replied by saying I was allowed to withdraw anything I wanted to other than what was held in margin and raised margin requirements  over 100% till I had all but ~0.5 btc held in margin.

So for the time being, margin requirements seem to be determined by how much BTC is in this particular trader's account.

[zebedee]

It's hard to justify treating someone differently just because they left BTC on the exchange that you can seize.


Moral of the story : if there's any chance you might want out, don't leave excess coins on icbit.

[J_Coin]

Agreed.  Well..  of course I agree lol X)

[Fireball]

The only moral of the story:
Don't try to escape with other people's money. Futures contract is an obligation with a possibly limited profit but unlimited risk. Margin requirement is a function of volatility and possible risks, and they were and are changing every day, sometimes a few times per day.

[zebedee]

The only moral of the story:
Don't try to escape with other people's money. Futures contract is an obligation with a possibly limited profit but unlimited risk. Margin requirement is a function of volatility and possible risks, and they were and are changing every day, sometimes a few times per day.

No, you're refusing to understand because it suits you, you are not an unbiased observer apparently.


Two people, identical positions to OP, one has coins left on the exchange and one doesn’t.


Are you treating them identically in the current situation, if the one with coins wants to withdraw them and be in the same position as the other guy?


If not, how on earth can you justify it?


Treating them identically is the only right way to do things. Seizing one's coins just because you can is theft.


Discriminatory action from the exchange admins is yet another black mark on the professionalism with which icbit.se is being run.

[Fireball]

The only moral of the story:
Don't try to escape with other people's money. Futures contract is an obligation with a possibly limited profit but unlimited risk. Margin requirement is a function of volatility and possible risks, and they were and are changing every day, sometimes a few times per day.

No, you're refusing to understand because it suits you, you are not an unbiased observer apparently.

The only thing which suits me is carrying payouts according to the contracts. If someone tries to run away with money he (obviously!) owes to the counterparty, that's kind of theft we are preventing.

And this is the case those persons wanted to withdraw money when the price was determined to fall with subsequent clearings, thus putting all debt they can't cover to the exchange.

zebedee: if you don't understand the problem, please try to understand it first and only then reply. Or are you also affected and wanted to run away with money, and hence defending such behavior?

[zebedee]

The only moral of the story:
Don't try to escape with other people's money. Futures contract is an obligation with a possibly limited profit but unlimited risk. Margin requirement is a function of volatility and possible risks, and they were and are changing every day, sometimes a few times per day.

No, you're refusing to understand because it suits you, you are not an unbiased observer apparently.

The only thing which suits me is carrying payouts according to the contracts. If someone tries to run away with money he (obviously!) owes to the counterparty, that's kind of theft we are preventing.

And this is the case those persons wanted to withdraw money when the price was determined to fall with subsequent clearings, thus putting all debt they can't cover to the exchange.

zebedee: if you don't understand the problem, please try to understand it first and only then reply. Or are you also affected and wanted to run away with money, and hence defending such behavior?

And what about the guy with no coins on the exchange? You treat him differently. That is unfair and not impartial, and hence unjustifiable.

I have no skin in this game, I'm just pointing out the obvious. It's concerning that you don't see it.

[Fireball]

The only moral of the story:
Don't try to escape with other people's money. Futures contract is an obligation with a possibly limited profit but unlimited risk. Margin requirement is a function of volatility and possible risks, and they were and are changing every day, sometimes a few times per day.

No, you're refusing to understand because it suits you, you are not an unbiased observer apparently.

The only thing which suits me is carrying payouts according to the contracts. If someone tries to run away with money he (obviously!) owes to the counterparty, that's kind of theft we are preventing.

And this is the case those persons wanted to withdraw money when the price was determined to fall with subsequent clearings, thus putting all debt they can't cover to the exchange.

zebedee: if you don't understand the problem, please try to understand it first and only then reply. Or are you also affected and wanted to run away with money, and hence defending such behavior?

And what about the guy with no coins on the exchange? You treat him differently. That is unfair and not impartial, and hence unjustifiable.

I have no skin in this game, I'm just pointing out the obvious. It's concerning that you don't see it.

Not differently, same way. Maintenance margin is not personal per account, it's global per instrument, so everyone is treated fair.
In fact, this whole thing is about being fair to traders.

[J_Coin]

So how do you pursue traders who have defaulted, but keep their coins in an external wallet?

[Fireball]

So how do you pursue traders who have defaulted, but keep their coins in an external wallet?

The margin requirements mechanism prevents them from withdrawing those coins to an external wallet.

[zebedee]

So how do you pursue traders who have defaulted, but keep their coins in an external wallet?

The margin requirements mechanism prevents them from withdrawing those coins to an external wallet.

You're ignoring the point (deliberately?) again. Two guys buy 500 contracts, same price. One has nothing left after initial margin. One still has 10 coins.


Market dumps, suppose new variation margin is 10 coins. Ten minutes before the next clearing the guy with 10 coins wants to withdraw them. Your current policy is to deny him. But the other guy with nothing on the exchange is not being penalised. This is not impartial and it is unfair and asymmetric.


You're breaking your contract. Clearly as you don't take 100 percent margin, the contract is implicitly that putting up future variation margin is optional - if you refuse you're at risk of forced closure. That's fine as it's mutually understood. The guy with 10 coins is exercising his right to not put up more and be force closed.

However, simply because he has coins you can seize, you're stealing them and denying him equal treatment with others with identical contractual obligations who haven't left coins lying around for you to grab uncontractually.

That is simply not right. Can you genuinely not see that?

[Fireball]

But the other guy with nothing on the exchange is not being penalised. This is not impartial and it is unfair and asymmetric.

He is, his margin call will obviously come earlier.

[zebedee]

But the other guy with nothing on the exchange is not being penalised. This is not impartial and it is unfair and asymmetric.

He is, his margin call will obviously come earlier.

OK that's slightly more promising. Where are these rules and procedures laid out? It doesn't accord with my experience in March.

[J_Coin]

@Fireball at this point I think you are smart enough to realize you were wrong and are deliberately trying to mislead.  The point of the matter is that you refused to honor my withdrawal request and then changed margin requirements after the fact to specifically target my account and give your actions the veneer of legitimacy.

Even today when I asked you if you would consider writing that confiscation of funds was possible you replied by 'No, only margin.'  Going forward do you intend to honor withdrawals made BEFORE you change margin requirements?  If not that is not *just margin*  you may also want to let people know how much you feel you are entitled to of their non margin funds.

You are even changing rules based on this.  Why don't you just own up to a bad decision?  I have no intention of pursuing this further, but on principle I find what you did and your continued sophistry abhorrent.

[yury]

I think there is a failure to communicate here. The icbit administrator sees the exchange as one thing, while most of the traders see it as something else.
 
The admin believes that people are accountable for their promises. If they buy on margin, they are promising to repay the debt in full. For example, suppose I buy a contract. Rather than pay the entire cost, I pay 10%. Who is paying for the rest of the contract? Well, traditionally it is a lending bank. However, there is no bank here, so icbit gives you a "loan" and sets a margin. If your investment tanks, the entire value of the contract must be payed out. If I put in only 10%, where does the rest come from? It has to come from icbit, however icbit has no intention of losing money because of my poor investment. So, icbit says that I am responsible for the remainder. At this point, icbit and many traders do not see eye to eye.
 
Traditionally, when a lending bank offers you a margin, if your investment falls below the margin, you can add money to keep your position open, or the bank sells you futures. If the trader chooses to let his investment go, then he loses no more than what he put in (say 10%). I believe most traders feel this is how icbit should operate. Unfortunately, if this happens someone needs to pay the counter party, and it is not going to be icbit.
 
The current infrastructure on icbit is absolutely not compatible with icbit's philosophy. This is the half of the problem. The icbit platform reserves an initial margin. The implication being that this is the most you can lose in one trading session. Unfortunately, this is simply not true. The administrator made it clear in chat and email that the idea is that each trader is responsible in full, even though the system reserves only a small amount. This leads to the second half of the problem. There are no written guidelines that state this.
 
I was recently bitten by this bug. I assumed that I was responsible for only the initial margin. I tried to move funds elsewhere. My withdrawal was suspended and then rejected. I wrote the administrator about it.
 

I am not sure if you remember, I spoke with you on chat last night. I requested a withdrawal of 3 BTC to my MtGox account, and the transaction was pending. I had enough funds in my account at the time. The margin increased after my withdrawal. I asked you about it. I believe you said it would go through the next day when MtGox started working again. It seems it did not. Can you please advise? Thank you.

I got a very nice response.
 

I'm really sorry, but I see that your account is empty now after it was margin called. If you wanted to leave some BTC on your account, you should have told me to sell off your positions earlier, and not just withdrawing money.
 
However it's a bit tricky, because as you say you made the withdraw request before teh margin requirements increase. However, it was after the market collapsed, so it was already obvious that you were trying to salvage as much funds as possible.
 
I am up to settle this, but I need some reasons. If I decide to settle this, I will have to pay this 3 BTC from my pocket, but I need some reasons why I should do so. The reason that first you bought as much contracts as possible, then had enough of time to sell them, didn't sell, and then tried to withdraw money when it was hard to sell, is a bad excuse.

At this point, it should be clear what is happening. The administrator believes I owe my counter parties. I was under the impression that all I owed was the initial margin, and the rest of my funds were mine to do what I pleased with.
 

Thank you for getting back to me. I did not buy as many contracts as possible. I had about half the contracts I could afford. I was trying to hedge my bets. I was expecting the market to keep crashing. I believe it was around 150-180 at the point. I moved about half of my funds to MtGox (at least, that was the idea) and I was going to sell those for USD to buy at a lower price. I left the other half and maintained my long position in case the dip was short lived.

The admin's position should be clear, but his failure was in not documenting policy. I pointed this out.
 

May I suggest making the policy clear in the future. I feel like I cannot make any sensible trades. Any generally safe action I take backfires when the policy changes. This is not the first time this is happening. I have lost over 5 BTC in all on icbit due to last minute rule changes. I understand that you need to react to ever changing market conditions. However, an imperfect policy that everyone knows about is infinitely better than a constantly changing set of rules.
 
If you wish to hold funds that have been requested for withdrawal, this is highly unusual, but acceptable as long as everyone knows. If you wish to change margins at random times of the day, this too is fine, as long as everybody knows. What is not acceptable is a trader coming back from lunch and seeing that all of his money is gone because there were 2 unannounced clearings.

And he agrees.
 

I fully agree with your concerns. We are going to write up a general "terms" page, discuss it with community, and then ask our users to accept it.

So, in the end, I was partially compensated for my loss from icbit's personal wallet. This clearly shows he is trying to take steps in the right direction.
 
I would argue that the obvious interpretation of the initial margin is the maximum amount you are liable for. And when withdrawing funds, those funds are automatically safe. These are not the only interpretations, but I would think most people would agree with them. The admin clearly does not. This is fine, but he must publish a clear policy before I use the exchange again.

[zebedee]

But the other guy with nothing on the exchange is not being penalised. This is not impartial and it is unfair and asymmetric.

He is, his margin call will obviously come earlier.

A little further thought shows this is impossible unless you clear continuously and require immediate settlement of margin calls.


Neither is true.  Even then your claimed strategy fails for jumps in the price.

So I stick to my original position : you treat people differently depending upon whether they have coins you can grab.  People who might not want to further support losing positions should not leave coins on your exchange and instead should just let you close them out.

I think this is wrong, and you should just admit it and change your policy to equal treatment - i.e. people can withdraw all unmargined coins regardless of mark to market PNL until they become margined at next clearing.  And your terms should state clearly that winning positions are not guaranteed their full mark to market PNL in the case a counterparty doesn't put up coins. That is fair, sensible, and should be acceptable to anyone who understands futures trading.

I don't find your current approach honest or genuine.

[akwfleaspirit]

Something is definitely not right with icbit.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=246845.0

[Lethn]

This is precisely why I hate the idea of trading with margin.