This is where I stop believing Obama is possibly a rational, intelligent man.

[GideonGono]

Yeah well I've been a libertarian since before the internet existed.  And I'm perfectly aware of the contradictory views of some libertarians.  So please just try to address the issues presented.  Because at the moment you're conflating my responses with those of MoonShadow, and just throwing out spray-fire of anti-capitalist nonsense instead of making any rational points.

You're also conflating a sustainable system with a just system.  Capitalism is derived from the facts of nature.  Natural resources are limited.  Human stupidity is infinite.  Yet it is not inherently just or particularly equitable without some additional considerations.  It would be perfectly sustainable, for instance, for 50% of the world's population to just be periodically marched off to die in war, or to instate a global one-child policy, or forced labor camps or what have you.  These systems are not, however, particularly just.

So there are considerations beyond just unfettered capitalism and sustainability;  there are reasonable restrictions that even most ardent capitalists agree are beneficial.  For instance, a power plant produces electricity which can benefit everyone, but it also produces pollution which can do harm.  The common aim of sustainability, libertarianism, and even capitalism, is to identify and quantify the harm, and to mitigate or prevent it without also destroying the benefit.

Thirdly, you're conflating capable government with big government.  Libertarians tend to believe that self-government is the most effective form of regulation.  That's not necessarily true.  But it's certainly a limiting case.  So you may assume "capable government" to be a utopian fantasy.  But ultimately governments can be replaced when they fail to meet the most basic requirements of those governed.

Wow, a semi-reasonable post.  My apologies for lumping you in with the rest of the corporatists in disguise.  I still think (know) that you're belief system is out of touch with reality and too utopian to work, but I'll at least give you large amounts of credit for not being one of the many here who are latched firmly onto the corporate teet.

Funny how, again, you seem to skirt the issues being presented.

[Dobrodav]

Funny how, again, you seem to skirt the issues being presented.

You can laugh, but just imagin, how boring is to read through theme named -
"This is where I stop believing Obama is possibly a rational, intelligent man."
LoL

[MoonShadow]

   What i am talking about ? Think about this: This really important for humanity guy`s just have no time to fight fot their rights. They honestly thinks that their rights, freedoms, incomes, are UNIMPORTANT for humanity.
   Where will be their place in Libertian society ? They will quickly become SLAVES. Why ?
Because Libertianism are extreme form of egoism. Any Libertian, will take so much freedom, as it can from anybody, who not bother about personal freedom.

What a pile of shit.  You really don't have any idea what libertarianism actually is, do you?

And you definately don't, AyeYo.

I don't think that either of you understand that your continued ability to express your opinons about libertarians on this list is entirely dependent upon the ideology that you think so little of.  You may continue to express your views, as popular as they may be outside of this forum and beyond the Internet, mainly because it is the firm belief of the powers present that you have the right to do so.  Thus, you have the liberty to defame your hosts, because the dominate ideology in control of this forum believes that you have that right.  Go try and support libertarian ideals on any forum that is not predominately libertarian and see how long your hosts permit you to do so.  Note that this degree of tolerance the opinons of others does not depend upon you believing that you have any such right.

[Dobrodav]

What a pile of shit.  You really don't have any idea what libertarianism actually is, do you?

And you definately don't, AyeYo.

I don't think that either of you understand that your continued ability to express your opinons about libertarians on this list is entirely dependent upon the ideology that you think so little of.  You may continue to express your views, as popular as they may be outside of this forum and beyond the Internet, mainly because it is the firm belief of the powers present that you have the right to do so.  Thus, you have the liberty to defame your hosts, because the dominate ideology in control of this forum believes that you have that right.  Go try and support libertarian ideals on any forum that is not predominately libertarian and see how long your hosts permit you to do so.  Note that this degree of tolerance the opinons of others does not depend upon you believing that you have any such right.

   I am read through that post and was surprised that it means just  " blah-blah-blah".
I am did not belive in this and  give that post to  be translated by google. Unfortunatly - it again turns in
"Blag-blah-blah"
 
   I am was surprised and asked my english speaking friend about his opinion.
He answered me, that it is just "Bluh-bluh-bluh", and i am can ignore  this.
   But just in case, that there is, maybe, some missunderstanding, i am asking  your, forum user that reads this,  advice - is that just
"Blah-blah-blah", or there lies some arguements that i shoiuld answer ?

[AyeYo]

   What i am talking about ? Think about this: This really important for humanity guy`s just have no time to fight fot their rights. They honestly thinks that their rights, freedoms, incomes, are UNIMPORTANT for humanity.
   Where will be their place in Libertian society ? They will quickly become SLAVES. Why ?
Because Libertianism are extreme form of egoism. Any Libertian, will take so much freedom, as it can from anybody, who not bother about personal freedom.

What a pile of shit.  You really don't have any idea what libertarianism actually is, do you?

And you definately don't, AyeYo.

I don't think that either of you understand that your continued ability to express your opinons about libertarians on this list is entirely dependent upon the ideology that you think so little of.  You may continue to express your views, as popular as they may be outside of this forum and beyond the Internet, mainly because it is the firm belief of the powers present that you have the right to do so.  Thus, you have the liberty to defame your hosts, because the dominate ideology in control of this forum believes that you have that right.  Go try and support libertarian ideals on any forum that is not predominately libertarian and see how long your hosts permit you to do so.  Note that this degree of tolerance the opinons of others does not depend upon you believing that you have any such right.

No, but it does depend upon you believing that I have that right.    Which, really, runs counter to the idea that its a "natural" right.


Free speech is not exclusive to libertarians or this board.  Did you notice that I have not once said that, as out of touch with reality as libertarians are, they should be silenced?  I'm all for free expression and you're free to believe whatever you want in this society, including your libertarian ideas.  Dobrodav even specifically said that all viewpoints should be allowed because that is how a good society is formed by concesus.  So don't act like libertarians invented free speech.

But we've reached another contradiction of libertarianism.  In libertarian society, non-libertarians are still forced to be subjected to libertarian ideals and societal forces which they do not subscribe to - kind of like how you're sitting here and crying about how you're unwillingly subjected to the forces of this non-libertarian society.

So how do you reconcile that contradiction?

[AyeYo]

What a pile of shit.  You really don't have any idea what libertarianism actually is, do you?

And you definately don't, AyeYo.

I don't think that either of you understand that your continued ability to express your opinons about libertarians on this list is entirely dependent upon the ideology that you think so little of.  You may continue to express your views, as popular as they may be outside of this forum and beyond the Internet, mainly because it is the firm belief of the powers present that you have the right to do so.  Thus, you have the liberty to defame your hosts, because the dominate ideology in control of this forum believes that you have that right.  Go try and support libertarian ideals on any forum that is not predominately libertarian and see how long your hosts permit you to do so.  Note that this degree of tolerance the opinons of others does not depend upon you believing that you have any such right.

   I am read through that post and was surprised that it means just  " blah-blah-blah".
I am did not belive in this and  give that post to  be translated by google. Unfortunatly - it again turns in
"Blag-blah-blah"
 
   I am was surprised and asked my english speaking friend about his opinion.
He answered me, that it is just "Bluh-bluh-bluh", and i am can ignore  this.
   But just in case, that there is, maybe, some missunderstanding, i am asking  your, forum user that reads this,  advice - is that just
"Blah-blah-blah", or there lies some arguements that i shoiuld answer ?

LOL

Just read what I wrote in response and it will make sense to you want he said.

He is deflecting the arguments presented to him, and instead saying that it's libertarian ideals that allow us to freely express ourselves... but he's wrong because the idea of the freedom of speech was around long before libertarianism became an internet fad.

[NghtRppr]

They both can operate successfully, but  only in case that all, or at least 90 % of their populations, - share the same idea.

The same goes for the abolition of slavery. I guess that'll never happen either. Oh wait...

before libertarianism became an internet fad

Yet again, you're engaging in name calling, attaching negative labels to ideas you disagree with.

[Dobrodav]

   Ahh, i am get it. In some way he is right. If there will no be fight for freedom, than we will be live in some dictating society.
   Libertianism is off point here, but just because that movement did not exist in that times.
But there was another movement for freedom, and lots of that movement mans and womans died for their believs.
   Now, due to their extrimism we are enjoed the free speach.

   But it seems like he want to shot my mouth with clap. And this is very un-Libertianists.
At least it  looked like, he wants to take my freedom to speak about this,  - away from me.

  That is not libertianists way. But i am will not give him that freedom, do not matter how strong he want to take it from me.
 LoL

[AyeYo]

They both can operate successfully, but  only in case that all, or at least 90 % of their populations, - share the same idea.

The same goes for the abolition of slavery. I guess that'll never happen either. Oh wait...

Abolition of slavery is a single issue, not a political, social, and ethical system of beliefs.   Nice try though. (not really)

[NghtRppr]

Abolition of slavery is a single issue, not a political, social, and ethical system of beliefs.

Abolition of aggression is also a single issue.

The belief that all human interactions should be voluntary isn't a very complex issue.

[MoonShadow]

   What i am talking about ? Think about this: This really important for humanity guy`s just have no time to fight fot their rights. They honestly thinks that their rights, freedoms, incomes, are UNIMPORTANT for humanity.
   Where will be their place in Libertian society ? They will quickly become SLAVES. Why ?
Because Libertianism are extreme form of egoism. Any Libertian, will take so much freedom, as it can from anybody, who not bother about personal freedom.

What a pile of shit.  You really don't have any idea what libertarianism actually is, do you?

And you definately don't, AyeYo.

I don't think that either of you understand that your continued ability to express your opinons about libertarians on this list is entirely dependent upon the ideology that you think so little of.  You may continue to express your views, as popular as they may be outside of this forum and beyond the Internet, mainly because it is the firm belief of the powers present that you have the right to do so.  Thus, you have the liberty to defame your hosts, because the dominate ideology in control of this forum believes that you have that right.  Go try and support libertarian ideals on any forum that is not predominately libertarian and see how long your hosts permit you to do so.  Note that this degree of tolerance the opinons of others does not depend upon you believing that you have any such right.

No, but it doesn't depend upon you believing that I have that right.  


Free speech is not exclusive to libertarians or this board.  Did you notice that I have not once said that, as out of touch with reality as libertarians are, they should be silenced?  I'm all for free expression and you're free to believe whatever you want in this society, including your libertarian ideas.  Dobrodav even specifically said that all viewpoints should be allowed because that is how a good society is formed by concesus.  So don't act like libertarians invented free speech.

The right to speak against the soverign was a uniquely 'liberal' concept in the 1700's, back when 'liberal' meant something much closer to 'libertarian' than you are willing to admit.  In effect, libertarians did invent freedom of speech.

But we've reached another contradiction of libertarianism.  In libertarian society, non-libertarians are still forced to be subjected to libertarian ideals and societal forces which they do not subscribe to - kind of like how you're sitting here and crying about how you're unwillingly subjected to the forces of this non-libertarian society.

So how do you reconcile that contradiction?

What contradiction is that?  Is that anything like an athiest who gets bent because he goes to a child's baseball game at the YMCA, and then some jerkoff bible thumper has the audacity to expect him to sit still while there is a prayer!?  Oh my non-God!  No atheist should be forced to sit quietly while someone else prays to the culturally dominate deity in the society that I continue to choose to live within at a public event that I chose to attend.  Oh the horror!

It's called freedom of religion, not freedom from religion, quite intentionally.  You are just as free to ignore libertarians as that atheist is free to ignore the Christians.  No one is forcing anything upon you, you came here of your own accord; and knowing now that this is a forum dominated by a culture that you detest, you contine to return of your own accord.  If you don't like it, I'm pretty sure that even you can see the options available to you.

[AyeYo]

What contradiction is that?  Is that anything like an athiest who gets bent because he goes to a child's baseball game at the YMCA, and then some jerkoff bible thumper has the audacity to expect him to sit still while there is a prayer!?  Oh my non-God!  No atheist should be forced to sit quietly while someone else prays to the culturally dominate deity in the society that I continue to choose to live within at a public event that I chose to attend.  Oh the horror!

It's called freedom of religion, not freedom from religion, quite intentionally.  You are just as free to ignore libertarians as that atheist is free to ignore the Christians.  No one is forcing anything upon you, you came here of your own accord; and knowing now that this is a forum dominated by a culture that you detest, you contine to return of your own accord.  If you don't like it, I'm pretty sure that even you can see the options available to you.

That has absolutely nothing to do with what I posted.  Try again.


See this post as well:

The belief that all human interactions should be voluntary isn't a very complex issue.

How is the action to be a part of a libertarian society voluntary for those that don't want to be a part of that society?

[MoonShadow]

How is the action to be a part of a libertarian society voluntary for those that don't want to be a part of that society?

The same way that the state of your residence is voluntary.  If you don't like the one you're in, you are still free to move to another.  People still do it all the time in this country, it's called freedom of travel. 

[MoonShadow]

What contradiction is that?  Is that anything like an athiest who gets bent because he goes to a child's baseball game at the YMCA, and then some jerkoff bible thumper has the audacity to expect him to sit still while there is a prayer!?  Oh my non-God!  No atheist should be forced to sit quietly while someone else prays to the culturally dominate deity in the society that I continue to choose to live within at a public event that I chose to attend.  Oh the horror!

It's called freedom of religion, not freedom from religion, quite intentionally.  You are just as free to ignore libertarians as that atheist is free to ignore the Christians.  No one is forcing anything upon you, you came here of your own accord; and knowing now that this is a forum dominated by a culture that you detest, you contine to return of your own accord.  If you don't like it, I'm pretty sure that even you can see the options available to you.

That has absolutely nothing to do with what I posted.  Try again.

Perhaps you don't understand analogies?

[Dobrodav]

   Well, i am do not want to stop your brave libertianists fight.
Look at this :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IzxRCbCXlz0

     There is just a little example of what we are achieved on far north, wide land, surrounded by enemys.
What communism idea achieved.

     I`am was born in 1975. That ideas are not simple echoes, of distant past for me.
They never will be just empty sound for me. I am will die with them in my brain.
     And we are FAILED.

     And your fight for "bright libertian future" also will fail. But we both doing same good joob. We are preserving balance, - we are fighting for justice.
     And there is no difference are we at same, or different side`s of barricade  - we are like advocate and procuror.
     We are fighting for truth.


    

[AyeYo]

How is the action to be a part of a libertarian society voluntary for those that don't want to be a part of that society?

The same way that the state of your residence is voluntary.  If you don't like the one you're in, you are still free to move to another.  People still do it all the time in this country, it's called freedom of travel. 

Then what are you doing sitting here bitching about unjust social contracts, coercion, men with guns stealing from you, etc.?  That same logic applies to all you people.  If you don't like the rules of the society, GTFO.

[MoonShadow]

And there is no difference are we at same, or different side`s of barricade  - we are like advocate and procuror.
     We are fighting for truth.

The biggest truth here is that I can honestly believe that you honestly believe what you are saying.

[AyeYo]

What contradiction is that?  Is that anything like an athiest who gets bent because he goes to a child's baseball game at the YMCA, and then some jerkoff bible thumper has the audacity to expect him to sit still while there is a prayer!?  Oh my non-God!  No atheist should be forced to sit quietly while someone else prays to the culturally dominate deity in the society that I continue to choose to live within at a public event that I chose to attend.  Oh the horror!

It's called freedom of religion, not freedom from religion, quite intentionally.  You are just as free to ignore libertarians as that atheist is free to ignore the Christians.  No one is forcing anything upon you, you came here of your own accord; and knowing now that this is a forum dominated by a culture that you detest, you contine to return of your own accord.  If you don't like it, I'm pretty sure that even you can see the options available to you.

That has absolutely nothing to do with what I posted.  Try again.

Perhaps you don't understand analogies?

The analogy is EXTREMELY flawed and not the least bit relevant.


See my previous post.  All the bitching and moaning you do about the unjustness of our current society and how persecuted you feel in it... that all applies to non-libertarians under a libertarian society too.  You're all about making all choices voluntary and you claim the current system isn't voluntary... then how is your system voluntary?

Address that contradiction.

[NghtRppr]

How is the action to be a part of a libertarian society voluntary for those that don't want to be a part of that society?

If you want to form a Democracy, Theocracy or Communistic society you're perfectly free to do so as long as the people that are participating do so voluntarily. You just need to refrain from using aggression to force others to do what you want them to do and it'll still be a Libertarian society.

Like I said, all human interactions should be voluntary. Try couching your argument in those terms and see if you can make sense of your complaint of being forced to not force others to do things they don't want to do. I don't think that's even coherent.

[MoonShadow]

All the bitching and moaning you do about the unjustness of our current society and how persecuted you feel in it...

And where did you see this at?  Or are you projecting?

that all applies to non-libertarians under a libertarian society too.  You're all about making all choices voluntary and you claim the current system isn't voluntary... then how is your system voluntary?

Address that contradiction.

I did.  You just can't wrap your mind around it.