Bitcoin Forum
December 10, 2016, 06:56:00 PM *
News: To be able to use the next phase of the beta forum software, please ensure that your email address is correct/functional.
 
   Home   Help Search Donate Login Register  
Pages: [1] 2 »  All
  Print  
Author Topic: Why the price didnt go up ?  (Read 4865 times)
Notrem
Member
**
Offline Offline

Activity: 65


View Profile
June 15, 2011, 05:58:12 PM
 #1

Hello there !

Why the price didnt go up after difficulty increase  ?
1481396160
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1481396160

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1481396160
Reply with quote  #2

1481396160
Report to moderator
"If you don't want people to know you're a scumbag then don't be a scumbag." -- margaritahuyan
Advertised sites are not endorsed by the Bitcoin Forum. They may be unsafe, untrustworthy, or illegal in your jurisdiction. Advertise here.
1481396160
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1481396160

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1481396160
Reply with quote  #2

1481396160
Report to moderator
1481396160
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1481396160

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1481396160
Reply with quote  #2

1481396160
Report to moderator
ensign_lee
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 356


View Profile
June 15, 2011, 06:06:52 PM
 #2

Because that's not the way bitcoin works.

Difficulty may increase after a price jump. Why? Because now it's even more profitable to mine, so more people bring more machines online, and so difficulty jumps.

But think about the opposite situation: Why would price jump after a difficulty jump? The price of btc does not follow how hard it is to generate them. The people buying bitcoins don't *care* how much hashing was required to create them. Why would they?

Bottom line, PRICE DOES NOT INCREASE BECAUSE DIFFICULTY INCREASES.
Dude65535
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 126


View Profile
June 15, 2011, 06:25:18 PM
 #3

When price is high compared to difficulty more is spent on mining hardware and less on directly on bitcoins. Therefore difficulty increase does have a small and delayed effect on the price of bitcoin.

1DCj8ZwGZXQqQhgv6eUEnWgsxo8BTMj3mT
DamienBlack
Jr. Member
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 56


View Profile
June 15, 2011, 06:51:44 PM
 #4

For god's sake man. I told you in eight different ways in your last thread that the prices weren't going to go up because of difficulty. I had no idea you meant _immediately_, that's just crazy. You do realize that the prices are set my people buying and selling. There is no governing body setting prices. All the buyers and sellers knew that the difficulty was going up. If they felt like it had any effect on the price, they had _already_ taken into account and adjusted their prices accordingly.

Furthermore, there are 6,500,000 coins in circulation. Before the increase, we were mining about 10,000 coins a day. After the increase we are mining about 7,000 coins a day. That is only a 3,000 coin change. That's only 0.04% change when compared to the entire number of bitcoins. So the price should really only change about that much. This is all very hand-wavy, but I told you, repeatedly, in your last thread, that the any price change is already baked in.

I trade bitcoin options at https://bitoption.org/ ... Join me.
I play poker at https://betco.in/ ... Join me.
Support the bitcoin economy, what do you do?
Tips: 1NfXhiTFEdKQTdLy49s6DYAP1K7MeFWyao
Anth0n
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 144



View Profile
June 15, 2011, 07:09:27 PM
 #5

Bottom line, PRICE DOES NOT INCREASE BECAUSE DIFFICULTY INCREASES.

Suppose difficulty increased by 100x. According to your logic, prices would still not increase because difficulty does not affect price.

Let's say Bob is a Bitcoin newcomer. He decides to mine to get them, but then difficulty increases by 100x. So instead, he decides to buy them because mining would be far less profitable. Other people have the same thinking as Bob, and decide to buy instead of mine. This drives up the price. Difficulty does therefore affect price.
Findeton
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 126


View Profile
June 15, 2011, 07:21:36 PM
 #6

Bottom line, PRICE DOES NOT INCREASE BECAUSE DIFFICULTY INCREASES.

Suppose difficulty increased by 100x. According to your logic, prices would still not increase because difficulty does not affect price.

Let's say Bob is a Bitcoin newcomer. He decides to mine to get them, but then difficulty increases by 100x. So instead, he decides to buy them because mining would be far less profitable. Other people have the same thinking as Bob, and decide to buy instead of mine. This drives up the price. Difficulty does therefore affect price.

People want money, and just because of that, price affects difficulty. That's much more powerfull than your assertion on how difficulty affect price.

Bitcoin Weekly, bitcoin analysis and commentary

14DD7MhRXuw3KDuyUuXvAsRcK4KXTT36XA
Stephen Gornick
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 2002



View Profile
June 15, 2011, 07:28:00 PM
 #7

When price is high compared to difficulty more is spent on mining hardware and less on directly on bitcoins. Therefore difficulty increase does have a small and delayed effect on the price of bitcoin.

Here's a relevant article:
 - http://virtuallyshocking.com/2011/05/25/the-relationship-between-bitcoin-price-and-difficulty

tomcollins
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 182


View Profile
June 15, 2011, 07:35:55 PM
 #8

Bottom line, PRICE DOES NOT INCREASE BECAUSE DIFFICULTY INCREASES.

Suppose difficulty increased by 100x. According to your logic, prices would still not increase because difficulty does not affect price.

Let's say Bob is a Bitcoin newcomer. He decides to mine to get them, but then difficulty increases by 100x. So instead, he decides to buy them because mining would be far less profitable. Other people have the same thinking as Bob, and decide to buy instead of mine. This drives up the price. Difficulty does therefore affect price.

People want money, and just because of that, price affects difficulty. That's much more powerfull than your assertion on how difficulty affect price.

Price to difficulty ratio absolutely affects where new "investors" choose to invest - mining or buying coins.  If I want to get 50 coins, I have two options, buying them (or trading for them), or mining them.  If I buy them, it will push the price up.  If I mine them, it will not.  So when people become interested in Bitcoin and want to make an investment, the ratio absolutely could decide how the price adjusts.

However, this factor may not be as large as people make it out to be.  The price/difficulty ratio has been extremely favorable for miners up to this point, yet the price still has surged.  So difficulty is still catching up.  It's hard to put TON of systems online quickly to mine.  Hardware takes time to assemble, ship.  Rigs take time to set up.  So if there are ever big price spikes, difficulty can keep rising for a long time after that, even without any more price surges.

Right now, the balance is still favored more toward miners than it has been in the past.  So you'd expect to see more people still going for mining than buying.  The higher the price gets, the harder it gets to bump the price up even higher, but raising the difficulty costs the the same.  So the price jump will be much less than the difficulty jumps for a bit.
shady financier
Member
**
Offline Offline

Activity: 84


etcetera


View Profile
June 15, 2011, 07:38:22 PM
 #9

Hello there !

Why the price didnt go up after difficulty increase  ?

Price-follows-difficulty is sticky and slow, difficulty-follows-price is quick and... not sticky.

1G8AUgSTAw8hfatNnDHuYEqBAUzC3qvAAL

Bitcoin news: http://thebitcoinsun.com/

Rapidlybuybitcoin here.

The value of goods, expressed in money, is called “price”, while the value of money, expressed in goods, is called “value”. C. Quigley
rezin777
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 154


View Profile
June 15, 2011, 07:44:17 PM
 #10

If I want to get 50 coins, I have two options, buying them (or trading for them), or mining them. If I buy them, it will push the price up.  If I mine them, it will not.

Hmm... I understand what you are saying, but technically these two should have the same effect over time? In both cases you are reducing the supply of coins on the market by 50. You are just going about it differently.
tomcollins
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 182


View Profile
June 15, 2011, 07:59:48 PM
 #11

If I want to get 50 coins, I have two options, buying them (or trading for them), or mining them. If I buy them, it will push the price up.  If I mine them, it will not.

Hmm... I understand what you are saying, but technically these two should have the same effect over time? In both cases you are reducing the supply of coins on the market by 50. You are just going about it differently.

No, because if you mine or don't mine, it doesn't affect how many coins are generated by other people (until the next difficulty increase).

But the other factor at play is everyone knew difficulty was increasing.  Anyone thinking of building a mining rig would (or at least should) have accounted for this increase.  Everyone knew roughly how big it was going to be and it should already be priced in.

It's a complex situation.  Miners selling immediately may sell more or fewer depending on their strategy.  Some will sell to recover costs, some will sell all, etc... The ones selling to recover costs will need to sell a higher % of coins they mine.  The ones selling all won't change anything.  There are a lot of forces pushing things in different directions.  The clearest relationship of course is if the ratio is very favorable to mining, more people will mine, and difficulty increases.  Beyond that, it's mostly speculation.  You also see just a lot of people getting interested, which drives both difficulty and price upward for similar reasons (there are more people buying rigs and more people buying coins).  So that's why you sometimes see things go up together.
rezin777
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 154


View Profile
June 15, 2011, 08:14:51 PM
 #12

If I want to get 50 coins, I have two options, buying them (or trading for them), or mining them. If I buy them, it will push the price up.  If I mine them, it will not.

Hmm... I understand what you are saying, but technically these two should have the same effect over time? In both cases you are reducing the supply of coins on the market by 50. You are just going about it differently.

No, because if you mine or don't mine, it doesn't affect how many coins are generated by other people (until the next difficulty increase).

No, but it guarantees that the 50 coins you wanted won't be sold on the market (assuming you wanted to keep the 50 coins in either situation).

You buy coins (and don't sell them), you remove them from the market. You mine coins (and don't sell them), you remove them from the market.
ensign_lee
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 356


View Profile
June 15, 2011, 08:46:50 PM
 #13

Bottom line, PRICE DOES NOT INCREASE BECAUSE DIFFICULTY INCREASES.

Suppose difficulty increased by 100x. According to your logic, prices would still not increase because difficulty does not affect price.

Let's say Bob is a Bitcoin newcomer. He decides to mine to get them, but then difficulty increases by 100x. So instead, he decides to buy them because mining would be far less profitable. Other people have the same thinking as Bob, and decide to buy instead of mine. This drives up the price. Difficulty does therefore affect price.

But see, in your example, the driving force for btc price increases is Bob, the bitcoin newcomer. NOT the difficulty increase. He wants bitcoins, driving the demand up, thus driving the price up. Not difficulty.
Nath
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 15


View Profile
June 15, 2011, 09:30:53 PM
 #14

One thing people tend to forget: The difficulty rise is already priced into the market rates.

In other words: All people who trade BC know that the difficulty will rise and thus they already considered it in their decision to buy or sell BC.

Thats very common in stock markets: There are often situations where a company releases very good raised earnings - and still the stock of the company goes down? Why? Because the people who buy/sell stocks always have expectations in the future - and those expectations determine the price, not the current situation of a company or a commodity.

With BC it's the same: The current price is based on expectations of BCs future, not the current "state" (like difficulty). And since everybody already expected the current difficulty jump (and also the next etc), those informations are already considered in the current price. It only has an impact if for example the next difficulty jump is much higher or lower than expected (or other unexpected things happen).

18RqQr1HiBweBFQqcnMeuy1Sa4tTFGCs9F
ploum
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 378



View Profile WWW
June 15, 2011, 09:35:20 PM
 #15

Bottom line, PRICE DOES NOT INCREASE BECAUSE DIFFICULTY INCREASES.

Suppose difficulty increased by 100x. According to your logic, prices would still not increase because difficulty does not affect price.

Let's say Bob is a Bitcoin newcomer. He decides to mine to get them, but then difficulty increases by 100x. So instead, he decides to buy them because mining would be far less profitable. Other people have the same thinking as Bob, and decide to buy instead of mine. This drives up the price. Difficulty does therefore affect price.

Bob is a miner. He now has 100.000 bitcoins and invested a lot of money in a mining rig. Difficulty increase and he realizes that mining is not profitable anymore for him. He decides to retire and to take his money back. He sell 50.000 bitcoins that very same day.

Price fall.

Funny, I just demonstrated that the difficulty increase might drive the price down as well.

Blog posts about Bitcoin - 1KdRBbhjo72CqKTrFsQed6s9NMrvwvrUkq
minerX
Jr. Member
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 56


View Profile
June 16, 2011, 12:37:07 AM
 #16

I think the key point that everyone is missing is that this difficulty increase didn't actually affect the amount of bitcoins coming into the market.  Somewhere today we hit 12 terahash and thus the supply of bitcoin hasn't decreased.   In order for the price to go up the supply of bitcoin will need to go down by quite a bit.     Assuming the people that hoard will still hoard, and only a limited number of people are selling, the decrease in bit coins can have a pretty big affect on bit coin prices.
Anth0n
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 144



View Profile
June 16, 2011, 12:53:19 AM
 #17


Bob is a miner. He now has 100.000 bitcoins and invested a lot of money in a mining rig. Difficulty increase and he realizes that mining is not profitable anymore for him. He decides to retire and to take his money back. He sell 50.000 bitcoins that very same day.

Price fall.

Funny, I just demonstrated that the difficulty increase might drive the price down as well.

He cannot stop mining and sell (decrease the price) until after he has started mining and bought (increase the price).
MoonShadow
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1666



View Profile
June 16, 2011, 12:58:37 AM
 #18

I think the key point that everyone is missing is that this difficulty increase didn't actually affect the amount of bitcoins coming into the market.  Somewhere today we hit 12 terahash and thus the supply of bitcoin hasn't decreased. 

The supply of new bitcoins doesn't change (much), that's the major point of the difficulty retargeting.  The daily new supply of bitcoins is fairly constant.  Price didn't go up because price doesn't follow difficulty.  Corrolation isn't causation, children.  You have to look at which metric leads the other.  Price changes consistantly lead difficulty changes, because a spike in the exchange price attracts new miniers.  Why is this concept difficult to understand?

"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."

- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'
bitcoinminer
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 322



View Profile
June 16, 2011, 01:04:59 AM
 #19

I think the key point that everyone is missing is that this difficulty increase didn't actually affect the amount of bitcoins coming into the market.  Somewhere today we hit 12 terahash and thus the supply of bitcoin hasn't decreased. 

The supply of new bitcoins doesn't change (much), that's the major point of the difficulty retargeting.  The daily new supply of bitcoins is fairly constant.  Price didn't go up because price doesn't follow difficulty.  Corrolation isn't causation, children.  You have to look at which metric leads the other.  Price changes consistantly lead difficulty changes, because a spike in the exchange price attracts new miniers.  Why is this concept difficult to understand?

miniers - noun - like a regular miner, only smaller Smiley

What's strange to me, is with this most recent difficulty increase, maybe my pool is lucky, but I'm consistently getting about 30% more BTC per day!

I would say that if you get a statistically significant batch of new miners, say 10% in a short time period, that would drive the price up, but again, separate from difficulty.

Moreso than difficulty or miners is perception... It's not even been a week since the price went from like $14 to $40 and back down to $10 in 24 hours.  Looking at the market depth, I see a lot of people looking to sell, not a lot looking to buy, but differently from usual, the sellers are just holding on to their BTC rather than lowering their selling price.  Seems a lot of people may be examining last weeks carnage and "waiting it out" to see what happens.

I include myself in that group - BTC is extra income for me, rather than my sole source of income, so I don't have that same "need" to sell.

Be fearful when others are greedy, and greedy when others are fearful.

-Warren Buffett
MoonShadow
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1666



View Profile
June 16, 2011, 01:16:28 AM
 #20

I think the key point that everyone is missing is that this difficulty increase didn't actually affect the amount of bitcoins coming into the market.  Somewhere today we hit 12 terahash and thus the supply of bitcoin hasn't decreased. 

The supply of new bitcoins doesn't change (much), that's the major point of the difficulty retargeting.  The daily new supply of bitcoins is fairly constant.  Price didn't go up because price doesn't follow difficulty.  Corrolation isn't causation, children.  You have to look at which metric leads the other.  Price changes consistantly lead difficulty changes, because a spike in the exchange price attracts new miniers.  Why is this concept difficult to understand?

miniers - noun - like a regular miner, only smaller Smiley


I saw this and at first was like, "Wha..?" and then it hit me, and I bust out laughing.

"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."

- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'
Pages: [1] 2 »  All
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Sponsored by , a Bitcoin-accepting VPN.
Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.19 | SMF © 2006-2009, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!