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Author Topic: A Heroin Store  (Read 55027 times)
teppy
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June 09, 2010, 03:22:26 PM
 #1

As a Libertarian, the thing I love most about the Bitcoin project is the chance that it could be truly disruptive.

I think that drug prohibition is one of the most socially harmful things that the US has ever done, and so I would like to do a thought experiment about how a heroin store might operate, accepting Bitcoins, and ending drug prohibition in the process. We'll assume that the drug store is very high profile, and that law enforcement makes discovering the operator a high priority. We'll also assume that heroin is cheap when bought in bulk; the street price reflects the risk that street dealers must take to sell their product.

A drug dealer would set up a website that accepts Bitcoins for heroin. Orders would require a physical address for shipping. When an order comes in, the dealer would send heroin through the mail to two addresses: the address provided, and another random address. Because packages of heroin are now arriving at addresses across the country, receiving a package does not imply that you ordered it. Random addresses would be heavily reused to prevent law enforcement from making a statistical argument.

Now law enforcement could set up such a website as well, in order to discover buyers. So, the drug dealer must take half of his profits (and remember, he's already shipping 2x the amount paid for), and use them to buy heroin at other random websites, on behalf of both his customers and the random addresses that he has used.

If the post office knows that a package contains drugs, then they could send an undercover officer to deliver the mail to your door, or surreptitiously watch your mailbox to see who collects the mail, and then get a warrant to search your house to see if the package has been opened and not discarded. (IIRC, discarded materials are no longer considered in your possession.)

So, it would be important for buyers to not open any package that they suspect may contain their heroin, until they wish to consume it: they would only be in danger of possession between when the package was opened and when the contents was consumed.

Can anyone see a way to attack the store?

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June 09, 2010, 03:53:48 PM
 #2

Sounds interesting.. but the US government has endless resources and nothing to stop them from doing things they're not supposed to.. I think if it's high profile enough you would still get busted somehow, something you didn't think of.  If you're always shipping them from the same post office they might figure it out.. 

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Max Stirner
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June 09, 2010, 06:08:48 PM
 #3

Teppy, what a brilliant idea! Just for the theoretical approach of course! Cheesy
I think a better concept would be to leave out the official mail system all together. There are just too many ways to get caught once you expand your business.  What you need is a bitcoin operated anonymous delivery-service. Of couse to operate a secret mail service is very dangerous for the postman. So the concept would be that the postman delivers the packet to a secret spot and never meets the recipient in person.
The heroin shop would need a website running on freenet or i2p of course - like the postal service.
Once the packet is placed on the secret spot, you will get the info - could be gps-coordinates - or some advanced app on your iphone.

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June 09, 2010, 06:27:34 PM
 #4

Yes, I2P or Tor would work for such a website. Freenet is probably more secure because there are no entry/exit nodes to monitor, but Freesites can only serve static content, and anonymous Bitcoin payments don't have a way to include a message with them.

If every package originated at the same mailbox, then yes, I could imagine the government being able to detect the drug dealer by intensive surveillance. If the drug dealer used a random local mailbox, then it would get quite difficult because the set of people that use one of (let's say) 20 mailboxes would be huge.

And if the concept really is bulletproof, then I'd imagine 100's of such websites would quickly spring up, making LE's job even more impossible.

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June 10, 2010, 12:35:07 AM
 #5

So when/where can I place an order?

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June 10, 2010, 01:47:16 AM
 #6

Im sure the biggest drug gang (the government) wouldn't mind you competing on their home turf. Cheesy
sirius
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June 10, 2010, 06:12:10 AM
 #7

You'd need some kind of a reputation system before sending money to an anonymous merchant. Maybe something PGP based to verify he's the same guy people have successfully traded with previously. But even that is difficult, because in this case his customers want to remain anonymous too, and anonymous recommendations are next to nothing.

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June 10, 2010, 06:40:50 AM
 #8

You'd need some kind of a reputation system before sending money to an anonymous merchant. Maybe something PGP based to verify he's the same guy people have successfully traded with previously. But even that is difficult, because in this case his customers want to remain anonymous too, and anonymous recommendations are next to nothing.

Set up shop on second life or xbox live....or a similar service.Does freenet have a social network?

As long as you were connected securely you could just give your client the gps coordinates of the package-sort of like geocaching and tell them your bitcoin address.
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June 10, 2010, 07:14:53 AM
 #9

Set up shop on second life or xbox live....or a similar service.Does freenet have a social network?

As long as you were connected securely you could just give your client the gps coordinates of the package-sort of like geocaching and tell them your bitcoin address.

You still have the lack of trust problem. The one who fulfills his part of the deal first (sending the coins or the gps coordinates) needs to trust the other guy.

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June 10, 2010, 08:34:21 AM
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You could build an anonymous trust system by combining some aspects of BitCoin with a web of trust. In this system, anyone would be able to send as many "trust coins" as they want to other identities, but how many of these transactions you view as valid would depend on who you trust in the network. You might say that certain identities can send unlimited coins, while others can send up to 50. No identity would have an objective balance -- the balance would be determined entirely by how you process the public list of transactions.

Example:
-You know Identity A personally, so you allow him to send unlimited trust coins.
-He buys a CD from Identity B. Since it went OK, A sends B 100 trust coins.
-Randomly and over a long period of time, B sends these coins to addresses he controls. It is impossible for an observer to know whether any of these transactions were to real people or not, so B has plausible deniability. (This is clearly more secure if there are more real people between B and you, though.)
-B wants to sell you heroin online. To prove his legitimacy, he tells you one of his anonymized trust addresses. When you enter it into your software, you see that he has a number of trust coins, somehow gotten from your trusted peers (possibly in a very indirect way, but directly in this case).

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June 10, 2010, 07:46:46 PM
 #11

I just thought about the heroin store again, and I would propose to start with
a marihuana store first. It has many advantages to start with a dope store:
the risk of getting caught is much more calculable. Your clients are much trustworthier,
and your competitioners are not as dangerous. The most profitable place to start
such a business is a university campus. Demand is huge, the people are sane and the
area is small, so you and all your clients can reach the secret spots in a short amount of time.
Once the word has spread around that your store is reliable, the clients will trust
you.
The principle is the same as I proposed for the heroin store with a anonymous delivery system.
Your freenet/i2p page will be "dope-university-xyz"
A client orders the joint (for your first order, you cannot order more than one joint),
a new client has to pay first, before he gets the gps cordinates of the secret place you have
put the joint. In this scenario the web of trust is the social circle of the campus
where people spread the word about your reliability. If you always find a new spot to hide
the joints, it is a quite safe system. What do you think?
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June 10, 2010, 08:09:13 PM
 #12

I like it, Max. I wonder how much overlap there is between university pot smokers and university bitcoin users, though. Cheesy

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June 23, 2010, 12:22:19 PM
 #13

It would be easy to trace store using forensic methods, for someone with enough determination, manpower, resources, and time.  Unfortunately, when it comes to opiates, the government has an amost infinite supply of all 4 of those. As long as only a small number of stores springs up they would be wiped out immediately and never reach critical mass.


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teppy
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June 23, 2010, 02:23:04 PM
 #14

What flaw do you see in my description that would allow either the buyer or seller to be discovered, including statistical attacks?

The government does have huge resources, but they have not, to anyone's knowledge, broken PGP.

See if you can come up with a specific attack that the government could do that would allow either a buyer or the seller to be discovered.

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June 23, 2010, 02:43:29 PM
 #15

Theoretically, your plan is perfect, but in practice you need to factor in human error.

Wikileaks is a good example. The website is set up in a way that makes it impossible to trace whistleblowers using technical means. But as we have seen, if they brag about their whisleblowing to the wrong friend then they can be tracked down in meatspace.

Nothing will protect your store against old fashioned forensic analysis of the packaging you use for your parcels, for instance.

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June 23, 2010, 07:14:56 PM
 #16

tl;dr

there already is a marijuhana store in the .onion network


(will read the whole thread when I got some more time)

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July 16, 2010, 04:46:21 AM
 #17

As was stated forensic approaches could crack this.  Analyzing the packaging, for instance, and then watching the mailboxes it was sent from for someone using similar packaging (after placing an order)  Analyzing incidences of people shipping two packages of the same weight at the same time to different addresses. 

And, of course, there is the issue of establishing trust.

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July 16, 2010, 10:23:57 PM
 #18

Yeah, no one legit would send multiple packages of the same weight. And would't a dealer be sending different weight packages anyway?

I'm not saying there aren't problems, but those aren't them.

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July 16, 2010, 10:44:05 PM
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Yeah, no one legit would send multiple packages of the same weight. And would't a dealer be sending different weight packages anyway?

I'm not saying there aren't problems, but those aren't them.

The dealer would be sending multiple packages of exactly the same weight, according to the OP.  One to the real purchaser, one to a random address.

Of course this is something done for legal reasons, and often.   The point is that it is one more factor that can be used to cut down on the suspect pool and once it is cut down enough they can use other techniques to find out just who is the dealer.

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July 16, 2010, 11:19:06 PM
 #20

Oh, missed that. That's a valid point.

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July 18, 2010, 03:20:18 AM
 #21

<begin rant<You cant compete with the largest drug gang .Police,politicians,prison authorities and the legal system all are dependent on the drug war staying in place.This is why the drug dealers support prohibition and are often the biggest political donators because it props up their prices and their profits.There is also the human failure in that the police/feds turn your customers by using torture and/or other coercion methods.Better to pay off the local mafia reps and then get a green light for your operation lol.This is also why goldman sachs and BP gave so much support to Obama now it is paying off in spades.Did you say pay 20 billion into escrow which can be claimed as a tax break reducing your income and thus reducing your tax bill?

They send in unmanned drones to kill their competition in Afghanistan while using soldiers to protect the poppy fields and collect the end products.Under the taliban the drug fields were reduced to nothing and now with protection they supply the US drug needs from it.You can see the lengths they go to in  efforts to thwart competition to this power structure.

Bribing politicians and the police is easier than coming up with ways to avoid their detection methods.As it was with Al Capone so it goes for any other dealer in prohibition products.You can do everything completely legally and still they will pin something on you or swat your house for the fun of it all because of nothing more than "suspicion".I dont wish to rain on your parade but years of state brainwashing hides the fact that they are a gang with a monopoly on force.They will shut you down and the populace will cheer them on because they have been told their entire lives that this behaviour is legitimate.They might even get medals when they shoot your pets or children.>


</end rant>
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July 18, 2010, 03:24:47 AM
 #22

well, leaning on your customers wouldn't work, since they don't know anything about you except for a webpage.  And ending prohibition would be something you would not want to happen, because it would destroy your profit margins and replace your business with something legal and convenient.  I don't disagree with the rant, but I do think it is fairly irrelevent to the topic at hand.

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July 30, 2010, 09:04:07 PM
 #23

Can anyone see a way to attack the store?
Hacking always seems to work.
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July 30, 2010, 09:08:52 PM
 #24

I don't like people with a heroin store bringing heat on bitcoin users. Leave the heroin store to the criminals(for now), and focus on selling goods and services that's less harmful to its users and will easily pass right through policemen and politicians.

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July 31, 2010, 08:56:46 PM
 #25

I don't like people with a heroin store bringing heat on bitcoin users. Leave the heroin store to the criminals(for now), and focus on selling goods and services that's less harmful to its users and will easily pass right through policemen and politicians.

What is something you do not cyberpunk!
Shadow economy - the foundation of stability

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July 31, 2010, 10:28:44 PM
 #26

I don't like people with a heroin store bringing heat on bitcoin users. Leave the heroin store to the criminals(for now), and focus on selling goods and services that's less harmful to its users and will easily pass right through policemen and politicians.

What is something you do not cyberpunk!
Shadow economy - the foundation of stability

Build the shadow economy on something else other than police attracting goods and services. They're not going to attack shadow lawn mowing services, at least not at first.

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August 10, 2010, 03:09:37 PM
 #27

You could build an anonymous trust system by combining some aspects of BitCoin with a web of trust. In this system, anyone would be able to send as many "trust coins" as they want to other identities, but how many of these transactions you view as valid would depend on who you trust in the network. You might say that certain identities can send unlimited coins, while others can send up to 50. No identity would have an objective balance -- the balance would be determined entirely by how you process the public list of transactions.

There are two problems with that system.

1. Reputation is a number with global context, which it's not at all.
2. I must trust other's trust, whom I don't trust (don't know their motivation to trust somebody).

All systems with a reputation as a number, which is equally valuable to every participant, will fail.
They do not represent a reputation, they represent something other than that.
Reputation is not an additive value, really.

But that is not the subject of the topic.
Let's talk about heroin, you may sell the idea to Afganistan peasants, educate them and they will operate safely
from their native environment with armed security forces and totally invulnerable from US law enforcement, US army or US whatever.
And let the secure delivery of goods be their problem, not this forum's.
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August 10, 2010, 03:47:02 PM
 #28

I don't like people with a heroin store bringing heat on bitcoin users. Leave the heroin store to the criminals(for now), and focus on selling goods and services that's less harmful to its users and will easily pass right through policemen and politicians.

What is something you do not cyberpunk!
Shadow economy - the foundation of stability
If you would sell weed, mushrooms, dmt, haya, xtc, even coce I could understand.
But heroïn? you guys have to be joking right? I don't think someone who uses heroïn really will use something like bitcoin. How will he pay after sold his computer to pay for his addiction? shadow economy ok, heroïn, wouldn't associate bitcoin with it. Tongue

But it would be nice if I could pay with bitcoins in the coffeeshop or smartshop, and it would be even more perfect to deal with transactions between the coffeeshop and the grower. Because no grower who delivers to a shop, really sticks to the legal growing limits, so get payed with a payment system that isn't traceable is of course always a positive asset. Smiley

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August 10, 2010, 07:50:24 PM
 #29

I don't like people with a heroin store bringing heat on bitcoin users. Leave the heroin store to the criminals(for now), and focus on selling goods and services that's less harmful to its users and will easily pass right through policemen and politicians.

What is something you do not cyberpunk!
Shadow economy - the foundation of stability
If you would sell weed, mushrooms, dmt, haya, xtc, even coce I could understand.
But heroïn? you guys have to be joking right?

Using it for four years. Without addiction. Recommend. Smiley

Quote
I don't think someone who uses heroïn really will use something like bitcoin. How will he pay after sold his computer to pay for his addiction? shadow economy ok, heroïn, wouldn't associate bitcoin with it. Tongue

But it would be nice if I could pay with bitcoins in the coffeeshop or smartshop, and it would be even more perfect to deal with transactions between the coffeeshop and the grower. Because no grower who delivers to a shop, really sticks to the legal growing limits, so get payed with a payment system that isn't traceable is of course always a positive asset. Smiley

Do you have a bias towards heroin-addicted. Not all of them are the weak.
And libertarianism and bitcoin will enable them to live normally

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August 10, 2010, 10:56:07 PM
 #30

OK, how about an "online pharmacy" that accepts bitcoin?
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August 11, 2010, 04:16:42 AM
 #31

Its only illegal if they find out about it  Cheesy
If you are going to do such a thing keep it to yourself and your clients!
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August 11, 2010, 07:21:27 AM
 #32


Using it for four years. Without addiction. Recommend. Smiley


You guy just using the wrong recipe.

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August 11, 2010, 10:34:48 AM
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Using it for four years. Without addiction. Recommend. Smiley
Congrats for being the first recreational heroin user.
I don't know where you live, but if they have testcenters there, I would let hem test your heroin. Cheesy

Do you have a bias towards heroin-addicted. Not all of them are the weak.
And libertarianism and bitcoin will enable them to live normally

No, I have nothing against heroinaddicts, I have something against drugs that can't be used recreationally. The drug itself is not that unhealthy, but the addiction will kill you, unless you have a lot of cash.
I can't understand why someone ever would want to use heroin but if you want to use it, go ahead. As long as it doesn't hurt others, do what you want to do . If you want to sell or buy heroin with bitcoins, go ahead. But like noagendamarket said, keep it for yourself and the people involved with it. You don't do bitcoin a favour by discuss it here. You are not convincing the mainstream to use bitcoin with topics like this one. Go to your friendly neighbourhood dealer and see if he accept bitcoins and if not, go have a good talk with him.

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October 22, 2010, 10:42:08 PM
 #34

When a letter is suspicious, it is searched.  Police is capable of noticing letters sent to the same address during regular time intervals, with a significatif weight.

Don't try to send illegal stuffs via mail.  You will certainly get cought.
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October 23, 2010, 09:31:59 PM
 #35

I addressed this in my original post: The seller maintains a list of both customers and innocent people. When a customer places an order, identical packages go out to both him, and a randomly selected innocent. The innocent list is equal in size to the customer list, so that receiving regular shipments of heroin fails to even meet a "preponderance of the evidence" standard.

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October 23, 2010, 09:54:37 PM
 #36

My guess is that if we don't want to be advertised as "drug dealers" and "money launderers" by all the governments, we should stay away from such a buisness.
Or perhaps try to avoid doing it for at least few years, until bitcoin becomes mainstream.

Of course while saying this, I'm perfectly aware of that people will do otherwise, so i don't really know if there was point in saying it at all...

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October 23, 2010, 10:14:52 PM
 #37

I addressed this in my original post: The seller maintains a list of both customers and innocent people. When a customer places an order, identical packages go out to both him, and a randomly selected innocent. The innocent list is equal in size to the customer list, so that receiving regular shipments of heroin fails to even meet a "preponderance of the evidence" standard.

Just don't do that, seriously.  You'll end up in jail.

Trying to fool the police and send drugs by many different ways have been a regular activity for criminels for decades.  Police and gansters have gained much experience in this domain.  I very much doubt you have any real original idea.  And what for ?  Do you really want to send drug that much anyway ?  Can't you think about better things to do as a hobby ?
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October 26, 2010, 01:20:07 AM
 #38

I addressed this in my original post: The seller maintains a list of both customers and innocent people. When a customer places an order, identical packages go out to both him, and a randomly selected innocent. The innocent list is equal in size to the customer list, so that receiving regular shipments of heroin fails to even meet a "preponderance of the evidence" standard.

I'm with the guy above me. You'll never get away with this.

And if you really want to sell drugs, I would suggest sticking to softdrugs, at least you'll stay out of jail and get away with a small fine or some community services. So redecorate your basement, nice white on the walls, make it cosy with some 600W hps lamps and make sure clean air is flowing in and out, and enjoy some gardening.  Grin
Ok maybe it earns less than heroin, you still earn enough with it. Only drawback, you got to live in the right country for growing and your customers got to live in the right country for buying it. Else the whole you won't go to jail story won't work. Wink

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October 26, 2010, 07:05:29 AM
 #39

Sending heroin to random people ?

This is insane. If you are caught, you will end up with spending the rest of your life in prison (just imagine that some kids find your package).

I've always said that drugs kill your brain. It seems I'm mostly right in your case. The fact that you seem proud of it says it all.



As a side note, being brand new on this forum, I'm kind of uncomfortable with topics discussing how to use bitcoins to bypass the law. The fact that the law is good or not is debatable but completely unrelated with bitcoin. I really think that, in order to build a good image, bitcoin should not allow public discussing on "how to bypass the law with bitcoin". This is public relation. Just imagine a journalist that hear about Bitcoin and, the first thing it finds is people talking about setting a drug store or laundering money.

This is not about morality. We all have different morality so we have to stick on one common ground. I propose to use laws as this common ground (which are, in this area, essentially the same in most countries).

For example, I believe that talking about porn is fine because it is legit. What if someone talked here about setting up a child porn website ?

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October 26, 2010, 09:27:09 AM
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Sending heroin to random people ?

This is insane. If you are caught, you will end up with spending the rest of your life in prison (just imagine that some kids find your package).

I've always said that drugs kill your brain. It seems I'm mostly right in your case. The fact that you seem proud of it says it all.



As a side note, being brand new on this forum, I'm kind of uncomfortable with topics discussing how to use bitcoins to bypass the law. The fact that the law is good or not is debatable but completely unrelated with bitcoin. I really think that, in order to build a good image, bitcoin should not allow public discussing on "how to bypass the law with bitcoin". This is public relation. Just imagine a journalist that hear about Bitcoin and, the first thing it finds is people talking about setting a drug store or laundering money.

This is not about morality. We all have different morality so we have to stick on one common ground. I propose to use laws as this common ground (which are, in this area, essentially the same in most countries).

For example, I believe that talking about porn is fine because it is legit. What if someone talked here about setting up a child porn website ?

So you are worried that if some people (A) discuss doing something that some other people (B) don't like then B will hurt some other people (C) and you want A to change their behavior, not B?

If the admins of this site want people to not talk freely, then I'll talk somewhere else no problem. But the reaction of "Don't talk  about that, you'll get us all in trouble" is terrible imo. Maybe we could discuss ways not to get any of us hurt by violent people instead.

Maybe if more journalists ran into people saying "Violence is wrong" more of them would print revolutionary shit like that.

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October 26, 2010, 10:28:03 AM
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Quote

As a side note, being brand new on this forum, I'm kind of uncomfortable with topics discussing how to use bitcoins to bypass the law. The fact that the law is good or not is debatable but completely unrelated with bitcoin.

The discussions here are not so much about bypassing law but more about bypassing government.

I don't know if you have already noticed, but most people on this forum are some flavour of libertarian. They see Bitcoin as an ideal tool to achieve more independence from a coercive government, or even to make government obsolete altogether.  Ideological considerations are thus not completely unrelated with bitcoin.

Most libertarians will agree with you that a "moral common ground" exists, most will agree with you that courts of law are necessary, the only difference is that they think people who associate with one another should arrive at the moral common ground voluntarily, rather than having an arbitrary moralily forced upon them by a central authority.

The heroin store idea was more of a libertarian thought experiment than a serious proposal.

If somebody started discussing a CP store on this forum they would a) very quickly get a really bad reputation and b) probably get banned by the admins.

So why not the same reaction to somebody who discusses a heroin store? Because CP is coercive and selling heroin to adults isn't.

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October 26, 2010, 10:56:56 AM
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Your distinction between child porn and drug selling is based on your own moral. (and I personally agree with it). But it is not the distinction done by the laws. (both of them are crimes and punished by prison)

You say that a lot of people are libertarian (I'm myself somewhat libertarian but I don't think it does matter). That doesn't mean that all of them are nor that bitcoin is a libertarian tool. It could be used by libertarian. So what ? Was it the intended goal at the beginning ?  It's just like saying Linux is anti-Windows. Linux is used by anti-microsoft people but it doesn't mean that it's the goal (and annoying anti-windows people are quickly banned from Linux forum, even if they don't say anything bad regarding the law. In your case, it's worse).

Trust me : never try two revolutions at the same time, never mix revolutions. Either you choose bitcoin, either you choose libertarianism, but mixing both at the same time is a recipe for failure. Just like communist people in a free software community.

So, I believe that bitcoin forum's moderator should choose :

1) Bitcoin is an economic/software experiment only. Discussing related politcs is of course good thing but everything should respect the law : no money laundering, no drug, no child porn. Remember : it's the image you give to any external viewer seeking information about bitcoin !  Do you thing that average Joe would trust a bunch of anarchist Junkies to do anything related with their money ?

2) Bitcoin is a libertarian/anarchist project. Your message then makes sense. The image you give also makes sense. But then, it should be advertized from the start so innocent people like me will know what to expect and assume that they are putting their foot in some trouble waters…

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October 26, 2010, 12:04:48 PM
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http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1893946,00.html

Quote
Portugal, which in 2001 became the first European country to officially abolish all criminal penalties for personal possession of drugs, including marijuana, cocaine, heroin and methamphetamine

Quote
The Cato paper reports that between 2001 and 2006 in Portugal, rates of lifetime use of any illegal drug among seventh through ninth graders fell from 14.1% to 10.6%; drug use in older teens also declined. Lifetime heroin use among 16-to-18-year-olds fell from 2.5% to 1.8% (although there was a slight increase in marijuana use in that age group). New HIV infections in drug users fell by 17% between 1999 and 2003, and deaths related to heroin and similar drugs were cut by more than half. In addition, the number of people on methadone and buprenorphine treatment for drug addiction rose to 14,877 from 6,040, after decriminalization, and money saved on enforcement allowed for increased funding of drug-free treatment as well.]The Cato paper reports that between 2001 and 2006 in Portugal, rates of lifetime use of any illegal drug among seventh through ninth graders fell from 14.1% to 10.6%; drug use in older teens also declined. Lifetime heroin use among 16-to-18-year-olds fell from 2.5% to 1.8% (although there was a slight increase in marijuana use in that age group). New HIV infections in drug users fell by 17% between 1999 and 2003, and deaths related to heroin and similar drugs were cut by more than half. In addition, the number of people on methadone and buprenorphine treatment for drug addiction rose to 14,877 from 6,040, after decriminalization, and money saved on enforcement allowed for increased funding of drug-free treatment as well.

The evidence speaks for itself.

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October 26, 2010, 01:22:06 PM
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Your distinction between child porn and drug selling is based on your own moral. (and I personally agree with it). But it is not the distinction done by the laws. (both of them are crimes and punished by prison)
Shrödinger's cat thought experiment was such a shame, poisoning a cat is cruel and probably illegal in some countries.

Trust me : never try two revolutions at the same time, never mix revolutions. Either you choose bitcoin, either you choose libertarianism, but mixing both at the same time is a recipe for failure.
Wise wisdom is wise.

Just like communist people in a free software community.
Si vous avez compris cette phrase, ne prenez pas la route.

So, I believe that bitcoin forum's moderator should choose :

1) Bitcoin is an economic/software experiment only. Discussing related politcs is of course good thing but everything should respect the law : no money laundering, no drug, no child porn. Remember : it's the image you give to any external viewer seeking information about bitcoin !  Do you thing that average Joe would trust a bunch of anarchist Junkies to do anything related with their money ?
The average Joe probably laughed when told the earth wasn't flat.

2) Bitcoin is a libertarian/anarchist project. Your message then makes sense. The image you give also makes sense. But then, it should be advertized from the start so innocent people like me will know what to expect and assume that they are putting their foot in some trouble waters…
Bitcoin is a cryptocurrency project kthxbye =)

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October 26, 2010, 01:25:13 PM
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Trust me : never try two revolutions at the same time, never mix revolutions. Either you choose bitcoin, either you choose libertarianism, but mixing both at the same time is a recipe for failure. Just like communist people in a free software community.

The current Bitcoin community and the Bitcoin protocol are two distinct developments.  

The Bitcoin protocol is just a tool.

It just so happens that at this early stage it's been enthusiastically embraced by libertarians because it lends itself particularly well to further their goals.

But that doesn't mean that other communities will not discover Bitcoin as way to fulfil their particular needs.

There is no reason that multiple communities/philosophies cannot coexist, even if they use the same tool.

Some people on this forum have already self-identified as anarcho-communist.

Quote
1) Bitcoin is an economic/software experiment only. Discussing related politcs is of course good thing but everything should respect the law : no money laundering, no drug, no child porn. Remember : it's the image you give to any external viewer seeking information about bitcoin !  Do you thing that average Joe would trust a bunch of anarchist Junkies to do anything related with their money ?

The average Joe will trust whatever most of his friends use, or whatever is endorsed by mainstream media. He doesn't know or care who is behind Bitcoin. If the average Joe discovers that Bitcoin is more convenient to use than other e-currencies, the average Joe will start using Bitcoin.

Similar example: Jimmy Wales calls himself "Objectivist to the core". Does the average Wikipedia user care about this? Does the average Wikipedia user even know what an Objectivist is? Is a non-Ojectivist user discouraged from using Wikipedia because of this? No.

As for respecting the law, discussing the theory of illegal actions is not illegal in itself, otherwise crime novels would be illegal.


Quote
2) Bitcoin is a libertarian/anarchist project. Your message then makes sense. The image you give also makes sense. But then, it should be advertized from the start so innocent people like me will know what to expect and assume that they are putting their foot in some trouble waters…

As I said, Bitcoin is just a tool.

If you think that the message on this website is too extreme for your customers, then why not do some PR work yourself, on your own Bitcoin-accepting website?

The more diverse the bitcoin economy, the better...

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December 04, 2010, 10:42:25 PM
 #46

Ok.  So what was the URL for the wiki page again for the, "How To Start your Own Bitcoin Pot Delivery Service"...?

I happen to know (yes, I have friends who know people), that in New York City at least...  It's not about customers "trusting" the pot man.   It's about the pot man trusting the customers.    You cannot buy from him unless you are either  (1) a long-standing known customer  or  (2) referred personally, and vouched for, by a long-standing customer.   Even then, they are hesitant to take on new customers.   After that, it's just a phone call....  Within 20 minutes, there's a man in your kitchen...  like the Avon Lady... but without the makeup.

That's how it works here.

I really can't see how Bitcoin could improve their business model in any way tho.   They have to deliver the product somehow anyway...  so why not pick up the cash at the same time.

Being anonymous?  No.  Protecting their anonymity by using a drop-spot is not a realistic option for many reasons.    First, it's Manhattan.  There are no secret spots.   Second, who the h*ll would want to go out into the cold and find their weed under a rock in central park...... when they could just have the pot man describing all the new varieties in their kitchen...  no.  It's not gonna happen.   People are far too lazy.   We New Yorkers expect everything delivered.    Mail it?   No way!    When I could have it here within 10-30 minutes.  Nope.

So, you see, Bitcoin offers no advantages to the way it's done now.   The only thing it could do, is allow for an online store that sells randomly to any tom, dick, or harry who visits that page.   And then, there's NO WAY they won't be investigated and shut down pronto!

Sending drugs to random addresses?  Are you insane?!   Why not just mail out sales brochures to the DEA's offices while you're at it!?   That's the nuttiest idea I've EVER heard.  I understand the 50/50 probability math....  But have the CONSEQUENCES of such an action ever even occurred to you!?   It would make national headlines.... until you were locked up... and then the nation would cheer!   The media would dub you "The Heroin Mailer".   Likely, they would consider the mailing of drugs to random addresses to be a crime 10 times WORSE than simply selling it to paying customers.
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December 05, 2010, 05:24:38 AM
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Bruce, you do not even imagine how many people want to try heroin or weeds, but are afraid to communicate with these 'Avon Ladies'

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December 05, 2010, 08:08:48 PM
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Yes, the world is not a reflection of New York City. Many people seek mail order service just to avoid the danger of associating with the park darkies.

Bruce might find it interesting to look into "the cartoon network". Using VoIP in hotel rooms, customer databases, bicycle couriers, custom packaging, their own trucking and customs brokers, these guys peddled weed in Manhattan for years before the cops got wise. One Quebecois fellow, Cusson, is still in jail, the first man ever convicted under new laws as operating a continuing criminal enterprise.

Interesting to note; he was undone by his sloppy cell phone habits.

But as I said above, Manhattan in no way is an example of the rest of the world.

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December 06, 2010, 12:31:44 PM
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Second, who the h*ll would want to go out into the cold and find their weed under a rock in central park......

The "uncool" people who don't have the "right" friends? Wink

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December 06, 2010, 01:08:15 PM
 #50

Geocaching and bitcoin ftw.
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December 07, 2010, 04:42:12 AM
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OK.  I suppose you guys might be right.  But I'm from Ohio originally.   And I can tell you, it works the same way in Columbus Ohio as it does here.    It's a friends of friends networking business,  with in-home sales reps.   

Facebook grew by friends of friends...   Smiley

But for the isolated, with no friends who smoke...  I guess.   But I don't see "under a rock " being very practical.    And mailing it seems extremely dangerous. 
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December 07, 2010, 10:45:59 PM
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OK.  I suppose you guys might be right.  But I'm from Ohio originally.   And I can tell you, it works the same way in Columbus Ohio as it does here.    It's a friends of friends networking business,  with in-home sales reps.   

In Portland it's a god damn cottage industry. I go for walks in the evening sometimes and smell soon to be harvested crops in the neighborhood. Lost your job? Grow pot until you find another one. B.C. bud drives the market here, but anyone with a little will can and will set up their own garden and sell it through a friend. It's all very civil. There's a culture of do's and don'ts, etiquette, etc. Don't ask too many questions, if you're a new customer you need a friend to introduce you, don't try to be a wannabe dealer by marking up dub sacks that you bought at retail prices. Hook up your friends, etc. I'm not a participant, but absolutely love to peak in on the market from time to time just to watch.

I've heard heroin dealing is actually moving in this direction, too, with friendly and safe door to door service, referral incentives, etc. A bunch of Mexicans from the same region are making a family businesses out of it and its threatening to disrupt traditional street dealing. I'll have to dig up the link.

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December 07, 2010, 10:50:49 PM
 #53

LA Times - A lethal business model targets Middle America

Analysis from John Robb at Global Guerrillas

That said, face to face cash transactions are probably the best way to conduct business on the retail end, in my opinion. It's more anonymous than bitcoin and I see too many problems with mailing most drugs and geocaching is way to inconvenient. Wholesale transactions to retailers might be an option. It would cut down on the amount of cash lying around. There are already very expensive ways to launder and route money through the traditional banking system and a digital currency can out compete such methods on both price and ease of transaction. I imagine drug dealers will be late adopters, though, as they probably already have invested a lot of trust into the networks they utilize for procurement and payment.

/speculation

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December 08, 2010, 12:02:53 AM
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That said, face to face cash transactions are probably the best way to conduct business on the retail end, in my opinion. It's more anonymous than bitcoin and I see too many problems with mailing most drugs and geocaching is way to inconvenient. Wholesale transactions to retailers might be an option. It would cut down on the amount of cash lying around. There are already very expensive ways to launder and route money through the traditional banking system and a digital currency can out compete such methods on both price and ease of transaction. I imagine drug dealers will be late adopters, though, as they probably already have invested a lot of trust into the networks they utilize for procurement and payment.

/speculation

I disagree.  I think that a lot of the young dealers are very social network savvy already, and bitcoin adds advantages that even cash in hand cannot provide.  Cash is only anonymous after the fact; if the deal is being observed, such as the case that one of your regulars has been pinched and cut a deal to trade your ass for his own, the dealer loses his product, money and freedom and the cash is used as evidence against him.  If a savvy dealer insists upon bitcoin from all his clients, the client need not be on his person/phone that can be nabbed, but can be a bitcoind running in a foreign country.  That may not prevent the cops from taking it or using it as evidence against the dealer, but it will certianly make it more work, and people who work in the legal system are just as lazy as any other field.  At a minimum, it would require that the cops get a court order to force the dealer to divulge his passwords.  Meanwhile giving a trusted associate the time to move the funds to another account that is not on the same server and therefore completely untraceable.

Using bitcoin in an in person transaction such as this could limit the dealers capital risk exposure by half, because only the physical product is subject to confiscation at the event, so long as the cops are interested in getting the dealer for dealing and not simply possesion with intent.  Ultimately this would reduce the dealers' legal risk exposure because if the cops can no longer get the money also, there is no longer an economic incentive for the cops to do so, and if they let the deal go down using bitcoin, the dealer still got his end of the deal even if he got pinched.

"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."

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December 08, 2010, 01:03:42 AM
 #55

The original idea was one where all transactions are conducted over a website only accessible via Tor. This part has been viable for years - it's always the money part that makes it risky for both the seller and the buyer.

The parts involving mail and double-sending drugs are ways to make the business scale, and make it work globally. They give plausible deniability to those receiving drugs.

I see lots of comments in this thread that "it would never work" and "the feds will come after you", but nothing detailing a specific way that they would detect who was mailing the drugs or running the business. The closest anyone came was Babylon, who suggested that the police might stake out all mailboxes in the area the packages came from, but that 's easily diffused: Locating the business in New York City, with 100k(?) public mailboxes would do the trick, or using common packaging like business envelopes.

(And to those that don't understand the concept of a thought experiment: No, I'm not actually planning to start a heroin store.)



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December 08, 2010, 02:51:56 AM
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The original idea was one where all transactions are conducted over a website only accessible via Tor. This part has been viable for years - it's always the money part that makes it risky for both the seller and the buyer.

The parts involving mail and double-sending drugs are ways to make the business scale, and make it work globally. They give plausible deniability to those receiving drugs.

I see lots of comments in this thread that "it would never work" and "the feds will come after you", but nothing detailing a specific way that they would detect who was mailing the drugs or running the business. The closest anyone came was Babylon, who suggested that the police might stake out all mailboxes in the area the packages came from, but that 's easily diffused: Locating the business in New York City, with 100k(?) public mailboxes would do the trick, or using common packaging like business envelopes.

(And to those that don't understand the concept of a thought experiment: No, I'm not actually planning to start a heroin store.)


Bullshit.

Contrary to bitcoins, which are virtual and are only information bits, It is quite easy to track any physical evidence.
There are millions of possible methods using which any "heroin store" or other drug store can be tracked.

Let me just point out a few which came to my mind just now. This is surely only tiny part of what FBI/CIA/Whatever can use to track down location of the drug store.

1. Analysing paper type used in packaging the packages - where it was bought, where was it produced. It can probably narrow down the search to s section of country (state or land).
2. Analysing different residues that exist in the paper due to its previous location. Such residues may include :
- Dust from special type of soil existing only in certain territory
- Pollens from certain types of plants that exist only in a certain area, or have greatest concentration in certain area
- Humidity of the paper -can help narrow the search if the drug store is near water or far from water
- Chemicals in the paper (can narrow the search if drug store is located in a city/district with chemical plant, certain type of city etc)
3. Analyse organic residues from the person doing packaging & their DNA
4. Analyse the drugs themselves - repeat everything you have done with paper to the drugs & more.

Just the few methods above will probably be enough to narrow down the search to a small district of a city, or just few blocks... If not, then probably some additional, beter methods exist.

----
Of course i realise that if you would be extremely, (or actually: INSANELY) careful, pack all stuff underwater to avoid polluting, buy your paper in another country, work in latex gloves all the time, use mailboxes in a different random city each time etc, then perhaps you could successfully stay anonymous for few years or something... But sooner or later you will make a mistake, because that's how human brain works. It always makes some number of mistakes, doesn't matter how hard you try.

And when you make the one fatal mistake, FBI/CIA/CSI will get you.

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December 08, 2010, 05:44:23 AM
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Maybe such a store will become viable and sustainable once we have electronic digital heroin. 
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December 08, 2010, 05:47:27 AM
 #58

Fuck. I could really use some heroin right now.

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December 08, 2010, 08:02:03 AM
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Maybe such a store will become viable and sustainable once we have electronic digital heroin. 

It already exists and it's free. It's called Facebook.

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December 08, 2010, 08:28:10 AM
 #60

99% of the worlds cash money has traces of cocaine on it. Send bitcoins to the madhatter and get cocaine in return.


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December 08, 2010, 08:43:46 AM
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LOL

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December 08, 2010, 03:55:54 PM
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Maybe such a store will become viable and sustainable once we have electronic digital heroin. 

It already exists and it's free. It's called Facebook.

For some people it's facebook, for other it's World Of Warcraft. For me it is called "Minecraft".
I have never played a game which would make me more dependant. I could play it for weeks without noticing external world Wink

I suppose heroin addiction cannot be much worse.

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December 08, 2010, 07:00:30 PM
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For me it is called "Minecraft".
I have never played a game which would make me more dependant. I could play it for weeks without noticing external world Wink

I suppose heroin addiction cannot be much worse.
How much would Minecraft have to cost for you to stop playing it? Now, how much would heroin have to cost?

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December 08, 2010, 09:57:51 PM
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For me it is called "Minecraft".
I have never played a game which would make me more dependant. I could play it for weeks without noticing external world Wink

I suppose heroin addiction cannot be much worse.
How much would Minecraft have to cost for you to stop playing it? Now, how much would heroin have to cost?

It doesn't have to cost anything.

I have recently discovered that i have very strong will if i want to. Especially if i see that an addiction is destroying my body - this is the reason i don't smoke cigarettes even though i stay often in the same rooms with people who smoke and nicotine is present in my blood anyway.

The problem with computer-related addictions is that they don't break down your body & mind - especially if you do some sports & care about your physical condition as well. So you don't have necessary incentive to drop such addictions. Also, I'm an IT specialist, so i guess i will be addicted to some game or other computer - related activity forever. that is no big problemthough, as I don't need to do it all the time - I can take longer breaks and it's fine.

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December 08, 2010, 10:31:15 PM
 #65

It doesn't have to cost anything.

I have recently discovered that i have very strong will if i want to. Especially if i see that an addiction is destroying my body - this is the reason i don't smoke cigarettes even though i stay often in the same rooms with people who smoke and nicotine is present in my blood anyway.

The problem with computer-related addictions is that they don't break down your body & mind - especially if you do some sports & care about your physical condition as well. So you don't have necessary incentive to drop such addictions. Also, I'm an IT specialist, so i guess i will be addicted to some game or other computer - related activity forever. that is no big problemthough, as I don't need to do it all the time - I can take longer breaks and it's fine.
I wasn't really talking about your circumstances specifically. My point is, and I recognize that we've gone well off topic, that an addict's problem isn't necessarily the addiction itself, but rather the cost of his addiction. Therefore, it's kind of unfair to compare an addiction to a video game to that of a narcotic. I would guess that a decent heroin addiction in the United States might cost an addict at least hundreds of dollars a month just on the drug itself. Now add the cost of neglecting obligations and the risks of consuming tainted product or getting pinched. I can't imagine that any video game addiction would entail similar costs.

/pedant

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December 09, 2010, 03:09:32 AM
 #66

I wasn't really talking about your circumstances specifically. My point is, and I recognize that we've gone well off topic, that an addict's problem isn't necessarily the addiction itself, but rather the cost of his addiction. Therefore, it's kind of unfair to compare an addiction to a video game to that of a narcotic. I would guess that a decent heroin addiction in the United States might cost an addict at least hundreds of dollars a month just on the drug itself. Now add the cost of neglecting obligations and the risks of consuming tainted product or getting pinched. I can't imagine that any video game addiction would entail similar costs.

/pedant

Yeah you're right - when taking into account all costs of heroin addiction, including non-money costs such as health problems, family problems, social problems, then heroin has waaaay higher costs than anything else (but actually only because it is illegal & unclean/tainted).

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December 17, 2010, 12:21:39 AM
 #67

Someone much earlier in the thread mentioned geocaching as a way to execute a trade.

I thought of another way.  There's this group of people who do this thing called "geohashing" (google it).  Basically they take a hash of the date plus some figure not known until that day (in their case, they use MD5 and the NYSE closing price) and compute a lat/long with it.  And they meet up (whenever possible) at that place.

Something like this - merely the idea of a pseudorandomly selected meeting place - could make a trading system viable, nobody would need to go to any known specific place... (that is, after the algorithm being refined so it chooses places people can actually go inconspicuously, rather than in the middle of some farmer's field).

Further, it could be arranged so that the pseudorandom location generator had some sort of duress input, whereby a drug user turned informant by force could simply give a duress input that would break the function of the algorithm and leave the cops showing up to a random place all alone...

Just random ideas, I don't see them as viable all by themselves without major refinement

Companies claiming they got hacked and lost your coins sounds like fraud so perfect it could be called fashionable.  I never believe them.  If I ever experience the misfortune of a real intrusion, I declare I have been honest about the way I have managed the keys in Casascius Coins.  I maintain no ability to recover or reproduce the keys, not even under limitless duress or total intrusion.  Remember that trusting strangers with your coins without any recourse is, as a matter of principle, not a best practice.  Don't keep coins online. Use paper wallets instead.
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December 17, 2010, 03:06:19 AM
 #68

Someone much earlier in the thread mentioned geocaching as a way to execute a trade.

I thought of another way.  There's this group of people who do this thing called "geohashing" (google it).  Basically they take a hash of the date plus some figure not known until that day (in their case, they use MD5 and the NYSE closing price) and compute a lat/long with it.  And they meet up (whenever possible) at that place.

Something like this - merely the idea of a pseudorandomly selected meeting place - could make a trading system viable, nobody would need to go to any known specific place... (that is, after the algorithm being refined so it chooses places people can actually go inconspicuously, rather than in the middle of some farmer's field).

Further, it could be arranged so that the pseudorandom location generator had some sort of duress input, whereby a drug user turned informant by force could simply give a duress input that would break the function of the algorithm and leave the cops showing up to a random place all alone...

Just random ideas, I don't see them as viable all by themselves without major refinement
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December 17, 2010, 06:57:54 PM
 #69

Someone much earlier in the thread mentioned geocaching as a way to execute a trade.

I thought of another way.  There's this group of people who do this thing called "geohashing" (google it).  Basically they take a hash of the date plus some figure not known until that day (in their case, they use MD5 and the NYSE closing price) and compute a lat/long with it.  And they meet up (whenever possible) at that place.

Something like this - merely the idea of a pseudorandomly selected meeting place - could make a trading system viable, nobody would need to go to any known specific place... (that is, after the algorithm being refined so it chooses places people can actually go inconspicuously, rather than in the middle of some farmer's field).

Further, it could be arranged so that the pseudorandom location generator had some sort of duress input, whereby a drug user turned informant by force could simply give a duress input that would break the function of the algorithm and leave the cops showing up to a random place all alone...

Just random ideas, I don't see them as viable all by themselves without major refinement

You'd have to hire mules to make deliveries to locations and dozens of red herring mules to wonder around the city randomly to default surveillance. It would be quite effective and have a even stranger side effect of spreading out the potential area that law enforcement would need to monitor. No more "drug districts."  Now search and replace "heroin" with "resistance orders" and now you've got a courier system for a revolution.

How soon will it be before its illegal to own a GPS?  Grin


 
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January 30, 2011, 06:30:07 AM
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Very interesting thread.  I was thinking bitcoin and geocaching would be useful for drug crops futures contracts. The contract would say which country it will be in, and once the date for delivery of the crop has arrived the contract owner would receive the gps location (probably berried in the desert or in a forest). This would be useful for wholesale of the product with the last mile covered by the dealer friend network. It would also make it easier for planning production of the drugs.

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January 30, 2011, 08:09:37 PM
 #71

(probably berried in the desert or in a forest)

Somehow, I'm seeing tremendous increase of popularity of forest sightseeing Wink

What an awesome thread!  You guys have a ton of great ideas.  Has anyone seen Silk Road yet?  It's kind of like an anonymous amazon.com.  I don't think they have heroin on there, but they are selling other stuff.  They basically use bitcoin and tor to broker anonymous transactions.  It's at http://tydgccykixpbu6uz.onion.  Those not familiar with Tor can go to silkroad420.wordpress.com for instructions on how to access the .onion site.

Let me know what you guys think

So here we go, first Bitcoin drug store.
We're going into deep water faster than i thought then.

I wonder how long will it take for govs to start investigating Bitcoin.

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January 30, 2011, 08:45:31 PM
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I wonder how long will it take for govs to start investigating Bitcoin.

Well, if we want bitcoin to be immune from government intervention, at some point we will need such a test.  We won't know if bitcoin is governmentproof until government actually tries to stop it.

I'm afraid it's a bit early though.
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January 30, 2011, 08:48:33 PM
 #73

I'm afraid it's a bit early though.

Exactly my thinking.
But once the genie is out of the bottle, you cannot put it back.

Now we just wait and see how will the future unfold.

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January 31, 2011, 09:43:21 AM
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What an awesome thread!  You guys have a ton of great ideas.  Has anyone seen Silk Road yet?  It's kind of like an anonymous amazon.com.  I don't think they have heroin on there, but they are selling other stuff.  They basically use bitcoin and tor to broker anonymous transactions.  It's at http://tydgccykixpbu6uz.onion.  Those not familiar with Tor can go to silkroad420.wordpress.com for instructions on how to access the .onion site.

This has big publicity potential and could increase the user base. It's just a bit difficult for them to build reputation as most people don't want to publicly admit they bought from there. Maybe private recommendations will do. Or people can say "I know somebody who successfully bought from them".

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January 31, 2011, 05:40:29 PM
 #75

Anybody investigate the idea of reputation and middlemen/mules?

I could see a Tor hosted site (or a distributed trust ring, like bitcoin itself) that essentially links a bitcoin address, a PGP key, and a list of transactions completed/failed...

You route your goods - whatever they are (how about firearms - since it seems like some of you are so freaked out about drugs - HAH) through a chain of trusted mules.

The transfers start small, maybe shipping test packages with micropayments for each step in the route.

Like onion routing for the real world - exit nodes can go last mile from the postal service to a GPS dead drop.

I'd be interested in forking this topic to get away from drugs, guns, etc - whatever the contraband is.  The point is there is a "cost" with flaunting the law, and with something assuring anonymity (if done right) there is a way to arbitrage between the legal and extralegal networks.
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February 01, 2011, 04:23:14 AM
 #76

You route your goods - whatever they are (how about firearms - since it seems like some of you are so freaked out about drugs - HAH) through a chain of trusted mules.

What if someone steals the goods?  Unlike on Tor, one can't "encrypt" the goods.

What if the last-mile-system were simply to produce an random but extremely specific rendezvous point that wouldn't be suspicious in and of itself.  A specific time - in 30 or 60 second increments - would prevent the need for anybody to loiter at the drop point.  They'd loiter somewhere semi-nearby, and approach at the exact time.  You'd have a 2 person flash mob that simply passed something in hand, and disappeared.

e.g. "Meet at gas pump #3 at the Texaco on 1234 W. Main St at 7:37:30 pm".

"Meet in the baking goods aisle #17 at Kroger 5678 S. First St at 6:24:00pm".

"Meet in the mens room at East 50th Burger King 9:15:30 pm".

"Meet at xyz parking stall in the North Haven Mall parking lot at 8:29:00 pm".

Companies claiming they got hacked and lost your coins sounds like fraud so perfect it could be called fashionable.  I never believe them.  If I ever experience the misfortune of a real intrusion, I declare I have been honest about the way I have managed the keys in Casascius Coins.  I maintain no ability to recover or reproduce the keys, not even under limitless duress or total intrusion.  Remember that trusting strangers with your coins without any recourse is, as a matter of principle, not a best practice.  Don't keep coins online. Use paper wallets instead.
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February 01, 2011, 04:38:28 AM
 #77

What an awesome thread!  You guys have a ton of great ideas.  Has anyone seen Silk Road yet?  It's kind of like an anonymous amazon.com.  I don't think they have heroin on there, but they are selling other stuff.  They basically use bitcoin and tor to broker anonymous transactions.  It's at http://tydgccykixpbu6uz.onion.  Those not familiar with Tor can go to silkroad420.wordpress.com for instructions on how to access the .onion site.

Let me know what you guys think
Cool. How do we know it's not a honey pot or just a rip off? Perhaps who ever runs it should reduce prices to attract customers and build its reputation.

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February 01, 2011, 04:56:16 AM
 #78

The obvious answer is that bitcoin is perfect for bribing police and politicians.

tl;dr make the cops your drug mules.




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February 01, 2011, 03:51:37 PM
 #79


I moved discussion of my physical-layer mixmaster network to a new topic http://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=3088.0.

I am willing to put my USD where my mouth is to kick it off, and eat postage for awhile.
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February 01, 2011, 04:33:04 PM
 #80

You route your goods - whatever they are (how about firearms - since it seems like some of you are so freaked out about drugs - HAH) through a chain of trusted mules.

What if someone steals the goods?  Unlike on Tor, one can't "encrypt" the goods.


That is an excellent point.  I have a few theories on how to deal with trying to game the system.

A1) Individuals get tied to a anonymous reputation - perhaps leveraging a GPG trust web.
B2) Anonymous auditing - costs bitcoin to perform.
C3) Starting small - the network can start initially as a remixer for postcards, legal goods of small value, etc.  As trust networks develop, those nodes can start charging postage.
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February 02, 2011, 04:40:23 AM
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I moved discussion of my physical-layer mixmaster network to a new topic http://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=3088.0.

I am willing to put my USD where my mouth is to kick it off, and eat postage for awhile.


if you don't have one, invest in a Amazon Prime account for free two day shipping on most items fulfilled by amazon. goons on somethingawful.com usually are splitting memberships. 4 accounts costs $80/year
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February 02, 2011, 03:31:05 PM
 #82

Okay, so to get this off the ground I need to undercut the ratio at MtGox...  I get free shipping but yes, that's an obvious demerit.  Duh.

Am I looking at this from the wrong end of the market?  Should I be soliciting dead drops, rather than offering to be one?  Would that have more takers?
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February 05, 2011, 06:10:02 AM
 #83

i already run such a venture made up of worldwide vendors that sell literally everything. if i could switch to bitcoin tommorow i would but our current system is quite anonymous with layers of plausible deniability i obviously can't get into detail about

some sites bitcoins are worth .87 to buy but if you want to sell they're only worth 0.42-0.53 per USD if i understand correcly. if i'm selling say 1g of MDMA for $60 I'll get roughly 68 bitcoins judging by the daily rates on most sites. when i sell i only get back $30, not much of a profit margin while you're risking years of incarceration. it could be doable but then throw in exchanger fees and it's not worth it. unless i'm totally wrong (?)

as for the anonymous distro network, i have no idea how this would ever work. to avoid detection, you must expedite as quickly as possible without sacraficing stealth since stuff is vac sealed and not designed to be passed around for weeks. also nobody in their right might would sign up to receive somebody else's drugs and traffic it without a huge cut. obviously those caught in the link would become informants to pass information about the next link, and everything would collapse. even if your shipping link had trust, when one retired he/she would just steal the next motherload of ounces passing through them and disappear.

silk road is a good idea, i can fill in all the vendor gaps they are missing (Yayo, cheaper and guaranteed better quality MDMA crystal, DMT, anything)  but it would be helpful if they told you where to stuff came from. if you're in ireland and you try to import weed from NL it's a waste of time
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February 05, 2011, 06:32:14 AM
 #84

some sites bitcoins are worth .87 to buy but if you want to sell they're only worth 0.42-0.53 per USD if i understand correcly. if i'm selling say 1g of MDMA for $60 I'll get roughly 68 bitcoins judging by the daily rates on most sites. when i sell i only get back $30, not much of a profit margin while you're risking years of incarceration. it could be doable but then throw in exchanger fees and it's not worth it. unless i'm totally wrong (?)
You could always set your own exchange rate.

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February 05, 2011, 06:56:47 AM
 #85

some sites bitcoins are worth .87 to buy but if you want to sell they're only worth 0.42-0.53 per USD if i understand correcly. if i'm selling say 1g of MDMA for $60 I'll get roughly 68 bitcoins judging by the daily rates on most sites. when i sell i only get back $30, not much of a profit margin while you're risking years of incarceration.

That's not true.  Just check the bid/ask spread on MtGox.com.  Like FatherMcGruder said, you can always set whatever price in bitcoins you like.

Quote
i can fill in all the vendor gaps they are missing (Yayo, cheaper and guaranteed better quality MDMA crystal, DMT, anything)  but it would be helpful if they told you where to stuff came from.

DMT?  Lovely.  Synthesized or extracted from plant material?

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February 05, 2011, 07:32:50 AM
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surprised the Mt Gox proxy guy takes cheques and paypal. that's crazy, i know at least a dozen forums vending counterfeit cheques that will clear then be recalled around a month later. certainly wouldn't trust half my customers to send him legit money especially when free cocaine is a possibility they'd probably flood his box and paypal with stolen or fake funds. he should take cash sent with tracking only or a money order with a blank pay-to name for privacy protection.

DMT a vendor in Canada sells it as small as 250mg extracted or a guy in the US with 10-1000g extracted. Pure yellow powder. Obviously not vending here Smiley you can probably google and find the site.
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February 05, 2011, 10:28:00 AM
 #87

i already run such a venture made up of worldwide vendors that sell literally everything. if i could switch to bitcoin tommorow i would but our current system is quite anonymous with layers of plausible deniability i obviously can't get into detail about

some sites bitcoins are worth .87 to buy but if you want to sell they're only worth 0.42-0.53 per USD if i understand correcly. if i'm selling say 1g of MDMA for $60 I'll get roughly 68 bitcoins judging by the daily rates on most sites. when i sell i only get back $30, not much of a profit margin while you're risking years of incarceration. it could be doable but then throw in exchanger fees and it's not worth it. unless i'm totally wrong (?)

Think of it as a payment for reducing your risks.

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February 05, 2011, 01:18:40 PM
 #88

If you are bigger than the market, isn't that your own doing or at lesat your own choice?

If you want the market $40,000 larger so it can accomodate your upcoming $40,000 transaction can't you tell your buyer you won't sell until you see $40,000 worth of bitcoin appear in a bitcoin account they specify to you before transfering into it? With you telling them some least significant digits to "sign" the amoujnt with to help ensure it's not some random arrival of money in some random account they decided to specify to you?

It is up to you whether to first buy enough bitcoins to offer on the market to make the market large enough or simply to watch the market price increase as the customer tries to bid enough to buy $40,000 worth...

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February 14, 2011, 06:42:29 PM
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...

some sites bitcoins are worth .87 to buy but if you want to sell they're only worth 0.42-0.53 per USD if i understand correcly. if i'm selling say 1g of MDMA for $60 I'll get roughly 68 bitcoins judging by the daily rates on most sites. ...

Probably that particular exchange operator was not in a buying mood that day. Another exchanger would offer you more.

This crazy unstable exchange rate has made bitcoin more of a stock market game than a good money for commerce. It's difficult to set prices or plan ahead when it's changing so rapidly.

Coffee4Bitcoin can charge a fair price today, but by the time it is delivered the customer feels he has paid too much. I expect any product that can't be delivered immediately might produce these negative feelings.

The opposite has also happened, where a day or a week later, the BTC I collected was worth less than I paid for the coffee.

The intrinsic value of bitcoin is in it's unique utility. That utility is adversely affected by wild price changes.

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February 14, 2011, 10:39:38 PM
 #90

The intrinsic value of bitcoin is in it's unique utility. That utility is adversely affected by wild price changes.

Price swings won't settle down until:
 1. The bitcoin economy is bigger (a "market cap" of hundreds of millions of dollars instead of just a few million dollars).
and
 2. Bitcoin is mature enough for people to really trust it.

Unless there is somebody out there with very deep pockets and a willingness to spend a lot of money smoothing out the fluctuations there's not a whole lot we can do about it besides make bitcoin better, easier to use, more secure, etc.

How often do you get the chance to work on a potentially world-changing project?
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February 15, 2011, 05:38:45 AM
 #91

The intrinsic value of bitcoin is in it's unique utility. That utility is adversely affected by wild price changes.

Price swings won't settle down until:
 1. The bitcoin economy is bigger (a "market cap" of hundreds of millions of dollars instead of just a few million dollars).
and
 2. Bitcoin is mature enough for people to really trust it.

Unless there is somebody out there with very deep pockets and a willingness to spend a lot of money smoothing out the fluctuations there's not a whole lot we can do about it besides make bitcoin better, easier to use, more secure, etc.

I would think the major bitcoin holders have an incentive to pool their resources to do this to at least some degree.  Even the small holders might be persuaded to chip in a share of theirs, provided the fund was well-managed.
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February 17, 2011, 10:48:53 AM
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I would think the major bitcoin holders have an incentive to pool their resources to do this to at least some degree.  Even the small holders might be persuaded to chip in a share of theirs, provided the fund was well-managed.

That sounds to me like you are suggesting a cartel to manage the value of a currency .... gee, how novel, we haven't seen that before ..... not.

Could lead to two bad outcomes (or both);

1) the cartel goes bust defending their market position when a bigger fish or the market itself turns on them

2) the economy that is based on that currency gets distorted price signals from the false values delivered by the cartel, i.e. a false economy. (E.g. unnecessarily high or low network difficulty)

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February 17, 2011, 12:36:08 PM
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Quote
I would think the major bitcoin holders have an incentive to pool their resources to do this to at least some degree.  Even the small holders might be persuaded to chip in a share of theirs, provided the fund was well-managed.

That sounds to me like you are suggesting a cartel to manage the value of a currency .... gee, how novel, we haven't seen that before ..... not.

Could lead to two bad outcomes (or both);

1) the cartel goes bust defending their market position when a bigger fish or the market itself turns on them

2) the economy that is based on that currency gets distorted price signals from the false values delivered by the cartel, i.e. a false economy. (E.g. unnecessarily high or low network difficulty)
Like Gavin said, "spend a lot of money".  This is almost certainly not a money making venture, at least not directly.  However, it seems reasonable to me to think that a coordinated attempt to smooth out exchange rate shocks - not to control overall trends - would make Bitcoin a more attractive currency, driving its exchange rate up, and possibly leading to an overall gain for those coordinating the "smoothing".

To the extent that they filter out real price information and not just noise, sure they're creating distortions.  But people don't see invisible distortions; however, they do see exchange rates.
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February 17, 2011, 03:47:49 PM
 #94

People are already being paid for smoothing out the exchange rate. It's a job you can hire yourself to do at any time.

Determine the right price, bid something below it, ask something above it. You will get paid unless the price shoots away past either your bid or ask and never returns. Having extra coins and dollars on offer will slow down and dampen swings.

You'll know you are good at doing this if you make profit.

There is no reason to think that this will work better if everyone hands their coins and dollars over to some entity or committee to handle. 
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February 18, 2011, 10:06:35 AM
 #95

People are already being paid for smoothing out the exchange rate. It's a job you can hire yourself to do at any time.

Determine the right price, bid something below it, ask something above it. You will get paid unless the price shoots away past either your bid or ask and never returns. Having extra coins and dollars on offer will slow down and dampen swings.

You'll know you are good at doing this if you make profit.

There is no reason to think that this will work better if everyone hands their coins and dollars over to some entity or committee to handle. 
Yeah, probably better for them to just capitalize a bunch of market makers, while periodically weeding out the losers.
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February 21, 2011, 02:16:08 AM
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Regarding moving packages annonymouslly, ii got n idea, would work at least within a city, and perhaps more:

It involves magnetic packages. It works like this, there are pedestrians and there are vehicles.


Pedestrians would each be told to be at some location, wait for a certain vehicle to park or stop at a traffic light, then the pedestrian would discreetly grab the magnetic package out of the vehicle and then place it somewhere else, either another vehicle he was told about or if necessary some fixed place, then another pedestrain would be told to pick up the package and move it to some other place, and so on.

There would be lots of pedestrians, each receiving apparently random instructions frequently, and lots of magnetic packages being moved around between spots or carried by vehicles from one place to another. The packages would have no identifying features differentiating one from another, and they would be constantly kept in flux regardless of actually having a payload meant to go somewhere.


The vehicles would be vehicles with predictable routes, city busses, cars of people that work everyday etc.


There would be a distributed censorship resistant system (perhaps running on Freenet) that would define the instructions for the pedestrians  of when and where to pick a magpack and when where to place it, the system would make sure the average density of magpacks across the network remains constant and that all packages have a decent likellyhood of eventually reaching everywhere in the network. Someone wanting to send somthing, would file a request with the system, specifying the destination, the sender would be one of the pedestrians, one day that pedestrian receives an special instruction telliing about a free magpack that they can use that will be avaiable at some location within their area at some time in the near future, that pedestrian will have a window of time to intercept that magpack, load it up, and put it back on the network.

Pedestrian should report missing packages (packages they didn't intercept or lost before being able to forward into the network) and missed deliveries (not keeping a package 'cause they couldn't attach it to the intended vehicle), the system will indenpendently analyze the patterns of losses and estimate if a given pedestrian or vehicle/location has become less reliable and adjust the routing accordingly.

Routes would be submited to the system announymouslly, and once a given attachable location or vehicle has been confirmed by enough reports some of the many magpacks will be routed thru them to test (most likelly empty ones, but once in a while loaded ones as well, seemingly at random), strenghtening the reliability value of that route based on successes.


This would only work if it achieved a certain critical mass before authorities try to crack down a given section (from a single city block to a whole city) ; with enough chaotic annonymous agents and packages moving around it will be impossible to predict when and even where a given package will be, and even if the authorities intercept one package or pedestrian the odds are they will have an empty magpack or a pedestrian without a magpack.

Some routes would have multiple intercept points, with pedestrians instructed to transfer the magpack if they do find it there and if they can, one pedestrian can't the next ones in the route will, their reports of success of failure will be computed by the system adjusting the next instructions accordingly, keeping track of magpacks to decide what orders to send to which pedestrians to keep the package in flux to it's eventual destinations.


Lost and then found packages will not be trackable by the system, but if a pedestrian finds a lost package, he is to attach it to a route attempting to leave it set to open and loose it's content, informing to the system (the magpacks would have a timed opening mechanism for disposal of any potential lost content before the next pedestrian), this way reintroducing the magpack into the network empty but without the pedestrian actually seeing what, if anything, was inside.


Magpacks might be moved between cities if necessary, given that is a possible route, like attaching to an intercity bus, or by a pedestrian with additional skills and access to a piece of luggage or the landing gear of a plane etc, these tranfers and routes only used when extremelly necessary; routes with less likellyhood of getting intercepted by the authorities, with less risk for the pedestrian etc being preffered when avaiable even if the final path is much longer (some sort of risk/benefit/cost evaluation of different paths would be done by the system to decide which path to use)


To help with the critical mass issue, lots of empty magpacks would be intentionally lost, and lots of orders to pedestrians would secretly be meant to fail; keeping authorities in wild goose chases, constantly wasting time spying on people that endup not doing anything and finding packages that are empty. Obviouslly these intentional failures being considered different by the system to not disrupt real realiability calculations.


The distribute system itself would be a black box, even if somehow the authorities managed to read the whole system at any given time, it would be white noise, once activated no one would be able to actually see inside the system, the system would run itself, it's message to the pedestrians saying enough for their current step, no pedestrian would be aware of where their current magpack originated nor where it is destined to go, people sending things would communicate with the pedestrian intended to receive the package telling them where to expect their package by means outside the network, they wouldn't know when, but when receiving a package, the target pedestrian would have been given an order similar to when someone gets an empty package to send thing, with the window being for withdrawing the contents before forwarding the package back into the network instead of depositing somthing in it.






Given the scale and complexity of this system, i guess it would be hugelly difficult to implement it right now, it's probably somthing that would exist in books and movies, but not be real in the foreseable future, but at some point it might be.

(I dont always get new reply notifications, pls send a pm when you think it has happened)

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March 01, 2011, 10:42:38 AM
 #97

Reading this thread is funny. You guys vastly over estimate the probability that a package of drugs will be intercepted. I would estimate that about one out of ten thousand packages are intercepted. In the USA about 2,000 arrests are made every year of people who sent drugs or got drugs in the mail. Almost all of them are people who got drugs because sending can be next to perfectly anonymous.  Most packages that are intercepted are going through customs so are international, if it does not pass through customs the chances of interception is next to none. Most packages that are intercepted weigh at least several pounds, if it will fit in a normal envelope and is sent domestic the chances of interception are so small as to be insignificant. USPS handles over two billion mailed items a year within the USA alone. The USPI has a few thousand agents. ICE has a few thousand agents, just short of one billion packages are mailed from foreign nations to the USA every year. The best detection system they have is drug dogs and they can be countered near perfectly with proper vacuum sealing and packaging. Interception is not what you need to worry about.

Vendors need to worry that their customers are feds. The risk of this can be greatly reduced with security techniques. Orders should be encrypted with GPG so that if the vendors contact point is put under electronic surveillance they can not find the addresses of other customers placing orders. Tor can be used to prevent a trace through the internet, using random open WiFi connections can prevent them from determining who is using Tor in areas packages are shipped from and makes a trace more or less impossible even if they compromise Tor. A particular worry is application layer exploits being used to side channel anonymizers. So far the feds do not even do this against child porn sites, only very serious targets like actual child abusers and murder for hire vendors etc. Not many of the FBI are skilled enough to do these attacks, it seems none of the DEA. Some Intelligence agencies of course can, but I do not see them as a likely adversary against even a very public vending site. You can reduce the risk of application layer exploits with many techniques though, hardening binaries during compile, mandatory access control permission systems, layering hypervisors / virtualization (including of network adapters), etc. The best option is to copy encrypted orders from one machine to another machine with NO ACCESS TO THE INTERNET in order to create an airgap, so even if the machine you get an order on is compromised with an application layer exploit the machine your decrypt orders on is safe. And of course use WiFi for when you get orders, so even if they break the MAC and go through hypervisor to real network adapter they can't totally fuck you with an anonymizer side channel. The only weak link is payment. Funding can be layered through digital currency exchangers and bounced around the world before it is cashed out with anonymous ATM cards. Bitcoin will be used by drug vendors more and more as it is easier. We really need a bitcoin mix or blind digital certificates on top of bitcoin to prevent financial network analysis though, Bitcoin is not an ideal solution by itself.

Let them analyze paper and such. First of all they already know your rough location from the return address / postmark so they are not going to learn jack shit new. Second of all you can use products sold at major chain stores. Remember, It took them decades to trace the Unabomber and he was mailing fucking bombs. Plus they never could trace him via mail his brother had to report him before they even came close to narrowing in on him. Of course you should wear gloves. Latex gloves are not good enough by themselves, they are thin and dust forms on them and leaves rubber stamp impressions of fingerprints through them. One pair of latex gloves over thicker gloves for when you touch product, remove gloves after vac seal, bleach scrub vac bag and then new latex gloves.

Customers can open private mail boxes with fake identification documents. Return addresses must be switched frequently to protect from network analysis. Finances must be decentralized to protect from financial network intelligence, if multiple customers send payment to the same point it is weak to attack. Decentralized payment can already be accomplished with out Bitcoin. It is best to decentralize and compartmentalize the vending operation as well, one person to ship and one person to communicate with customers at least. Geocache works as well, particularly for localized markets. Swarming is a technique to minimize loss. Don't send a kilo of product to one person, send 100 grams to ten people. You should only worry about finances, get people with out investment capital to handle the more dangerous jobs.

I want drugs to be decriminalized. Not every drug dealer is only about profit. Give me freedom over profit any time. I am sick of non-sophisticated friends going to prison for their life for wanting to have fun. The government ruins all trust in the youth, who knows if anyone is a friend or an undercover. They see us as a threat and use drug laws to split us apart. They make money off of our lives and treat us like subhuman animals, demonize us with lies in the media and via propaganda campaigns. All so they can keep us under control and make profit off us, keep us under their brainwashing. All they say are lies, you think you know about drugs but you know nothing but shit spread via their many sophisticated PSYOP campaigns. Please, do offer high quality heroin at consistent purity to the general public, maybe you will save one of my friends from overdosing. The vast majority of heroin overdoses are caused by varying purity batches, a user gets 30% purity heroin and then when a 60% batch comes around they use the same weight but get double the dose. If all heroin was 100% pure there would be no heroin overdoses. There would be no deaths from ecstasy if tablets had really MDMA in them and not bullshit like PMA that evil criminals pass as MDMA for profit and end up killing the users. The vast majority of negative effects of drug use in public perception have no basis in reality. Most of the others are actually the product of prohibition. The DEA is HAPPY that they lower the purity of drugs even though varying purity is the number one cause of overdose for all drugs. Fuck those fascists, I can not wait for the day that they are brought to justice for the horrible crimes they commit, I can only hope that their punishment is MORE severe than the punishment they give to the people who hurt nobody who they trick into thinking are their friends only to ruin their lives.

PS: We better not talk about how to use bitcoin to support jews hidden in attics in Nazi Germany because it is against the law to support Jews, all morals aside law is law. I really never will understand you law drones it is like you are completely incapable of thinking for yourself.
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March 13, 2011, 07:31:29 PM
 #98

Great insight in the previous post.

"We really need a bitcoin mix or blind digital certificates on top of bitcoin to prevent financial network analysis though, Bitcoin is not an ideal solution by itself."

I also feel that bitcoin isn't exactly anonymous, as all the transactions could be traced from generation to any particular payment. You can mix funds etc., but still it has a lot of vulnerabilities as far as I can see. If the government decides to crack down on bitcoin, this would be a real pain.

Any working services or ideas on how to solve this?
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March 14, 2011, 06:43:53 AM
 #99

BitLaundry
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BitLaundry Explanation
BitLaundry is designed to help unlink accounts from each other. It does that by providing a well-known, and hopefully popular service. Here's how it works:

   1. Imagine that Alice wishes to send BitCoins to Bob.
   2. Bob, sadly, is not well liked. Alice would rather not have anyone know that she sent Bob BitCoins.
   3. So, Alice puts Bob's address in the form at BitLaundry.
   4. Alice gets a one-time-use address from BitLaundry.
   5. Alice sends the money to that address.
   6. BitLaundry sends money out to recipients every 30 minutes.
   7. (But, it doesn't send out Alice's money immediately, that might be suspicious..)
   8. So, a random number of 30 minute segments later, BitLaundry sends the money out to Bob.
   9. BitLaundry then deletes the database link between the one-time-use address and Bob.
  10. Alice has sent money to BitLaundry, but people do this all the time. She's one of many.
  11. BitLaundry has sent money to Bob, but BitLaundry has sent money out to a whole bunch of other people as well.
  12. Alice and Bob are much less linked than they would have been otherwise.

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March 14, 2011, 01:17:37 PM
 #100

if there was a way to virtually transfer heroine it would be a pretty good idea
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March 19, 2011, 10:10:03 AM
 #101

Teppy, what a brilliant idea! Just for the theoretical approach of course! Cheesy
I think a better concept would be to leave out the official mail system all together. There are just too many ways to get caught once you expand your business.  What you need is a bitcoin operated anonymous delivery-service. Of couse to operate a secret mail service is very dangerous for the postman. So the concept would be that the postman delivers the packet to a secret spot and never meets the recipient in person.
The heroin shop would need a website running on freenet or i2p of course - like the postal service.
Once the packet is placed on the secret spot, you will get the info - could be gps-coordinates - or some advanced app on your iphone.



Secret mail service = instant terrorist threat = no go.
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March 24, 2011, 04:44:46 PM
 #102

I have to say that I would not personally do buisness with someone who was sending heroin to random addresses. For the same reason that I wouldn't do business with someone who was sending guns to random addresses.

I have nothing against heroin or guns. I just don't like the idea of either falling into the hands of irresponsible people. Be they old or young, badge or no badge.

I'd go for a GPS coordinate approach.

Or .. You could deliver locally using one of these: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ELr3U4l5HkQ


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March 24, 2011, 06:28:24 PM
 #103

Teppy, what a brilliant idea! Just for the theoretical approach of course! Cheesy
(...)Once the packet is placed on the secret spot, you will get the info - could be gps-coordinates - or some advanced app on your iphone.

Secret mail service = instant terrorist threat = no go.

Absolutely.

The only viable option is GPS geocaching. Everything else is easily traceable.
Using normal mail, there is 99,9% probabilty you will be caught sooner or later.

Actually, anything physical (leaving physical traces) or involving third person is easily traceable, because you only need to find weak link in the chain to find the seller. People are usually the weakest links.

I hope silkroad realizes this, because if he doesn't switch to GPS geocaching-only, sooner or later he will be caught.

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March 26, 2011, 07:53:11 PM
 #104

Mail is very safe. I know drug vendors who have sent mail for over ten years and are still not busted. If mail was so easy to trace the unibomber would have been arrested by being traced through the mail instead of his brother pointing in his direction. If you send mail from a post office you are an idiot. You can send mail from any of the blue drop boxes. This is more or less the same thing as a dead drop. You can also send mail from ANYONES mail box, just sneak it in their box with outgoing mail shortly before the mail man comes. It is very safe to send mail.
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March 26, 2011, 11:31:25 PM
 #105

Not all places got those boxes

(I dont always get new reply notifications, pls send a pm when you think it has happened)

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March 27, 2011, 12:34:05 AM
 #106

Secret mail service = instant terrorist threat = no go.

Such a thing does exist, but it happens to be pretty expensive.

"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."

- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'
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March 27, 2011, 07:09:27 AM
 #107

Mail is very safe. I know drug vendors who have sent mail for over ten years and are still not busted. If mail was so easy to trace the unibomber would have been arrested by being traced through the mail instead of his brother pointing in his direction. If you send mail from a post office you are an idiot. You can send mail from any of the blue drop boxes. This is more or less the same thing as a dead drop. You can also send mail from ANYONES mail box, just sneak it in their box with outgoing mail shortly before the mail man comes. It is very safe to send mail.

Well, even if you are right, it's only safe for the seller.
It is nowhere near safe for the buyer.

The problem is, you never know if you aren't buying from a FBI/CIA agent.
GPS geocaching would be a nice way to at least partially fix this inconvenience.

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March 27, 2011, 11:43:52 PM
 #108

Geocaching has pretty much the same risks for a buyer regarding being vaught in flagrant(sp?) where buying drugs is illegal, the cops could pretty much just as easilly stake out on random coordinates as they can on a street corner or a landmark on a park.

(I dont always get new reply notifications, pls send a pm when you think it has happened)

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March 31, 2011, 01:37:27 AM
 #109

Hello everyone!

I am not into drugs, but I like puzzles, especially the ones that involve people. Here's my hypothetical scenario.
There is an initial investment and some risk you are never going to see it, but I assume this kind of business is quite profitable so it shouldn't be a problem. I read through this thread and the one about silk road. I think that delivery to real addresses is the weak point. But this is how it could be solved:

1. Bob is a computer expert and sets up a website in Tor or I2P, just like silk road.
2. Bob buys a cheap laptop and a small GPS device. He secures it(encrypting hdds, removing cd-roms, disabling usb ports, etc) and prepares it for anonymous communications with himself via (for example)I2P anonymous email. Also some automation would be required to make this laptop simple to use by less technically inclined.
3. Then Bob goes out and finds Alice, who is a drug dealer. Alice is not a street type - she is smart and has a vehicle. They never meet or even if they do Bob never reveals his cunning plan face to face. Then Bob with some determination finds out where Alice lives.
4. Bob sends the Laptop and GPS to Alice anonymously with a (carefully written)letter explaining how it would work.

In the letter, amongst other things like "this computer can not be used for any other purpose and no additional software can be installed, etc", Bob would specify hour of the day for the communication.

The transaction.
1. John comes to Bob's website and orders the desired goods. He pays with Bitcoins and the only thing he has to reveal about himself is area where he lives or is willing to travel.
2. Bob receives this and any other orders and at the end of the day, just before the specified communication time, he sends the details to Alice
3. Alice takes the goods, drops it off in the desired areas and notes GPS coordinates.
4. Alice returns home, sends Bob the GPS coordinates and Bob reveals these coordinates on his site to his customers.
5. Next day goods are retrieved by the customers.

There are some limitation to this, like small area, but I think after a period of successful partnership, it should be scalable as Alice could introduce her friends to Bob. Also, Bob could find some friends on anonymous networks, who could implement this model in other countries
This is a very paranoid version where Bob has the most anonymity, but to kick start the whole venture this could be changed and Bob and Alice could know each other or even be one person. This is a much higher risk scenario. If Alice's or Bob's side of business gets compromised the whole operation goes down. While in the paranoid version, especially after Alice introduced her friends to Bob and Bob found friends in other countries, the show would go on.

Let me know what you think
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March 31, 2011, 02:00:18 AM
 #110

This just moves the legal risks from the site owner to the mule.

"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."

- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'
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March 31, 2011, 02:18:02 AM
 #111

Trust me I am right. I know hundreds of online drug vendors and the rare ones that get caught are never caught because they were traced through the mail. Customers have to trust the vendor. Law enforcement can stake out a dead drop just as easily as they can stake out a mail box. Smart customers get PMB with fake identification. In the end it is nearly the same thing as a dead drop.

You wish you could get drugs from the CIA, they only work with way big time dealers.

CIA = Cocaine Import Agency

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March 31, 2011, 04:20:28 AM
 #112

This just moves the legal risks from the site owner to the mule.

Wouldn't legal risk be the same for both. Cyberspace can be equaly dangerous place
Also, mule is already engaging in this activity and what this would do is reduce the risk of getting cought as it eliminates the need to interact with a buyer. In this model a buyer would never know who the seller was and vice versa.
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March 31, 2011, 04:57:34 AM
 #113

Trust me I am right. I know hundreds of online drug vendors and the rare ones that get caught are never caught because they were traced through the mail. Customers have to trust the vendor. Law enforcement can stake out a dead drop just as easily as they can stake out a mail box. Smart customers get PMB with fake identification. In the end it is nearly the same thing as a dead drop.

You wish you could get drugs from the CIA, they only work with way big time dealers.

CIA = Cocaine Import Agency

Correct. They make the best drugs.

Also wall street runs on cocaine.
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April 02, 2011, 06:00:49 AM
 #114

I2P is a horrible network to use for something like this because every node is a relay and it makes it super vulnerable to attack since the shipper leaks geolocation when they mail. Find I2P users in shippers area, which is trivial, and then you found the shipper. Using I2P for a drug vendor would actually be worse than using no anonymity network at all. If you use no anonymity network at all law enforcement can find you, if you use I2P anyone can find you if you leak rough geolocation.

Good point. I2P is also very weak to intersection attacks for the same reason.

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April 02, 2011, 01:35:40 PM
 #115

1. It doesn't have to be I2P
2. How would LE or anyone else know that you are using I2P for that purpose? Mybe you are using freenet or tor, or maybe it's a different means of communication altogether. Is surveiling every anonymous network user feasible? 
3. Parties engaging in this activity could be using random WiFi access points.
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May 27, 2011, 05:03:50 PM
 #116

Do you think the groupon-model would be a nice system for Bitcoin drug pushers to get new costumers through hard discounts?
Not really.

Quote from: Chris Rock
Drug dealers don't sell drugs. Drugs sell themselves. It's crack. It's not an encyclopedia. It's not a fucking vacuum cleaner. You don't really gotta try to sell crack. Ok?

I've never heard a crack dealer going "Man, how am I gonna get rid of all this crack?!"

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May 28, 2011, 02:10:58 AM
 #117

Your distinction between child porn and drug selling is based on your own moral. (and I personally agree with it). But it is not the distinction done by the laws. (both of them are crimes and punished by prison)

You say that a lot of people are libertarian (I'm myself somewhat libertarian but I don't think it does matter). That doesn't mean that all of them are nor that bitcoin is a libertarian tool. It could be used by libertarian. So what ? Was it the intended goal at the beginning ?  It's just like saying Linux is anti-Windows. Linux is used by anti-microsoft people but it doesn't mean that it's the goal (and annoying anti-windows people are quickly banned from Linux forum, even if they don't say anything bad regarding the law. In your case, it's worse).

Trust me : never try two revolutions at the same time, never mix revolutions. Either you choose bitcoin, either you choose libertarianism, but mixing both at the same time is a recipe for failure. Just like communist people in a free software community.

So, I believe that bitcoin forum's moderator should choose :

1) Bitcoin is an economic/software experiment only. Discussing related politcs is of course good thing but everything should respect the law : no money laundering, no drug, no child porn. Remember : it's the image you give to any external viewer seeking information about bitcoin !  Do you thing that average Joe would trust a bunch of anarchist Junkies to do anything related with their money ?

2) Bitcoin is a libertarian/anarchist project. Your message then makes sense. The image you give also makes sense. But then, it should be advertized from the start so innocent people like me will know what to expect and assume that they are putting their foot in some trouble waters…

You should read "The Law" by Frederic Bastiat and get some principled morals in your life. Cause right now, you just sound like a typical boot-licker.
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May 28, 2011, 05:58:06 AM
 #118

You should read "The Law" by Frederic Bastiat and get some principled morals in your life. Cause right now, you just sound like a typical boot-licker.

The original text is available here.

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May 28, 2011, 07:13:41 AM
 #119

Interesting thread...

I recently heard about a way someone sells "previously abandoned" bikes here in NYC. Buyer contacts seller, and gives his address (or convenient area). Buyer places the bike, locked up in the area and gives the location of the bike to the buyer. If the buyer approves of the bike (visual inspection, etc), and payment is made - then the seller sends the combination to the lock and the transaction has been made - with no physical interaction. The seller remained anonymous the entire time, and was in complete control of where he placed the bike.

Taking that same process in to the thought process being used here, one could use something like http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200306973_200306973. Simply use a bike chain, and hook up this padlock with the chain somewhere (not really that odd since there are tons of bike chains sans bikes in NYC). The padlock contains a compartment that can only be opened by knowing the combo - once the bitcoin transaction has been completed, the combo is provided to the buyer.


More shots/info of the linked lock: http://www.iwebstall.com/master-lock-5400d-select-access-key-storage-box-with-review/
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May 28, 2011, 07:23:57 AM
 #120

now that's just slick

"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."

- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'
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May 28, 2011, 05:49:16 PM
 #121

Taking that same process in to the thought process being used here, one could use something like http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200306973_200306973. Simply use a bike chain, and hook up this padlock with the chain somewhere (not really that odd since there are tons of bike chains sans bikes in NYC). The padlock contains a compartment that can only be opened by knowing the combo - once the bitcoin transaction has been completed, the combo is provided to the buyer.


More shots/info of the linked lock: http://www.iwebstall.com/master-lock-5400d-select-access-key-storage-box-with-review/
Just be sure it put it in a shady place out of the reach of too much moisture (urine).

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June 01, 2011, 07:53:19 PM
 #122

I've always wondered about plausible deniability when it comes to getting things in the mail.

In this case, if they payment can't be tracked, how can it be proved that you were the actual orderer? What is to stop me from ordering a bunch of illegal stuff and having it sent to my political rival's house and then making an anonymous tip. Seems like unless a pattern was developed over time and there was evidence of receipt and use (or receipt and sale) not much could be done. How can getting a package be without a reasonable doubt that you actually bought that package?

I don't think this is anywhere near the level of secrecy needed to move quantity - you aren't going to send a few k of yayo to a stranger UPS - but I think it will work fine for the personal use market. or
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June 04, 2011, 08:26:13 AM
 #123

Interesting thread...

I recently heard about a way someone sells "previously abandoned" bikes here in NYC. Buyer contacts seller, and gives his address (or convenient area). Buyer places the bike, locked up in the area and gives the location of the bike to the buyer. If the buyer approves of the bike (visual inspection, etc), and payment is made - then the seller sends the combination to the lock and the transaction has been made - with no physical interaction. The seller remained anonymous the entire time, and was in complete control of where he placed the bike.

Taking that same process in to the thought process being used here, one could use something like http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200306973_200306973. Simply use a bike chain, and hook up this padlock with the chain somewhere (not really that odd since there are tons of bike chains sans bikes in NYC). The padlock contains a compartment that can only be opened by knowing the combo - once the bitcoin transaction has been completed, the combo is provided to the buyer.


More shots/info of the linked lock: http://www.iwebstall.com/master-lock-5400d-select-access-key-storage-box-with-review/

A variation on this theme would be depositing stuff in bus depot lockers, or gym lockers, or school lockers.

The issue of course is security cameras with these places. This would let people trade larger items anyway.

Realistically the seller is not the one at risk if the item is placed in the mail. The buyer takes all the risk.

Like my post: 1DvQzs6zaE4HR2gjRRDd6dfu6mJJaCQv7Z
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June 04, 2011, 03:51:18 PM
 #124

Realistically the seller is not the one at risk if the item is placed in the mail. The buyer takes all the risk.
What risk? Anyone can send almost anything to anyone else through the mail.

What is to stop me from ordering a bunch of illegal stuff and having it sent to my political rival's house and then making an anonymous tip.
Nothing. It probably already happens to politicians and the like. If such a defense will work for them, it should also work for commoners.

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June 04, 2011, 11:30:56 PM
 #125

Interesting thread...

I recently heard about a way someone sells "previously abandoned" bikes here in NYC. Buyer contacts seller, and gives his address (or convenient area). Buyer places the bike, locked up in the area and gives the location of the bike to the buyer. If the buyer approves of the bike (visual inspection, etc), and payment is made - then the seller sends the combination to the lock and the transaction has been made - with no physical interaction. The seller remained anonymous the entire time, and was in complete control of where he placed the bike.

Taking that same process in to the thought process being used here, one could use something like http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200306973_200306973. Simply use a bike chain, and hook up this padlock with the chain somewhere (not really that odd since there are tons of bike chains sans bikes in NYC). The padlock contains a compartment that can only be opened by knowing the combo - once the bitcoin transaction has been completed, the combo is provided to the buyer.


More shots/info of the linked lock: http://www.iwebstall.com/master-lock-5400d-select-access-key-storage-box-with-review/

A variation on this theme would be depositing stuff in bus depot lockers, or gym lockers, or school lockers.

The issue of course is security cameras with these places. This would let people trade larger items anyway.

Realistically the seller is not the one at risk if the item is placed in the mail. The buyer takes all the risk.

A market demand for a locker space on private property, guaranteed without surveillance? Swipe card key opening or combination, sent in mail granting access to locker.

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Decriminalising financial privacy.
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June 04, 2011, 11:49:06 PM
 #126

Quote
Interesting thread...

I recently heard about a way someone sells "previously abandoned" bikes here in NYC. Buyer contacts seller, and gives his address (or convenient area). Buyer places the bike, locked up in the area and gives the location of the bike to the buyer. If the buyer approves of the bike (visual inspection, etc), and payment is made - then the seller sends the combination to the lock and the transaction has been made - with no physical interaction. The seller remained anonymous the entire time, and was in complete control of where he placed the bike.

Taking that same process in to the thought process being used here, one could use something like http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200306973_200306973. Simply use a bike chain, and hook up this padlock with the chain somewhere (not really that odd since there are tons of bike chains sans bikes in NYC). The padlock contains a compartment that can only be opened by knowing the combo - once the bitcoin transaction has been completed, the combo is provided to the buyer.


More shots/info of the linked lock: http://www.iwebstall.com/master-lock-5400d-select-access-key-storage-box-with-review/

A variation on this theme would be depositing stuff in bus depot lockers, or gym lockers, or school lockers.

The issue of course is security cameras with these places. This would let people trade larger items anyway.

Realistically the seller is not the one at risk if the item is placed in the mail. The buyer takes all the risk.

A market demand for a locker space on private property, guaranteed without surveillance? Swipe card key opening or combination, sent in mail granting access to locker.


I've actually considered this before.  But there is no way to assess the market, nor is there any way to advertise your services to the local target audience without also risk of alerting the LEO's.

"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."

- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'
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June 05, 2011, 07:23:00 PM
 #127

Quote
A market demand for a locker space on private property, guaranteed without surveillance? Swipe card key opening or combination, sent in mail granting access to locker.

A one-stop shop for many search warrants to be served at once :/
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June 06, 2011, 01:36:12 AM
 #128

Quote
A market demand for a locker space on private property, guaranteed without surveillance? Swipe card key opening or combination, sent in mail granting access to locker.

A one-stop shop for many search warrants to be served at once :/

Got a workaround?

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June 09, 2011, 10:02:56 PM
 #129

i need a cocaine store but have no idea how to get to silk road ppl help me
i need address with instructions

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June 10, 2011, 12:11:51 AM
 #130

i need a cocaine store but have no idea how to get to silk road ppl help me
i need address with instructions


lol!

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June 10, 2011, 02:01:24 AM
 #131

lol!
Drug addiction is no laughing matter!

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June 10, 2011, 10:20:02 AM
 #132

yeah, you´re right. i´m sorry!

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June 17, 2011, 09:13:31 PM
 #133

i need a cocaine store but have no idea how to get to silk road ppl help me
i need address with instructions


First learn to use TOR.  This is not the place to do that.  Once you understand Tor you can come back.

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June 17, 2011, 10:26:11 PM
 #134

I would add, second, learn the limitations of TOR. ie; learn not just how to use it, but how to use it well.
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June 17, 2011, 11:11:17 PM
 #135

The heroin store idea was more of a libertarian thought experiment than a serious proposal.

If somebody started discussing a CP store on this forum they would a) very quickly get a really bad reputation and b) probably get banned by the admins.

So why not the same reaction to somebody who discusses a heroin store? Because CP is coercive and selling heroin to adults isn't.

Meh, I don't really care if my neighbor buys stuff to put up his nose. It's his life, and I might think he's ruining it esp. if he can't keep up the habit with legal funds, but it's his life. Who am I to judge him.

If he's paying to see footage of horribly abused or manipulated kids (or even paying someone to do it) then it becomes an issue. I don't need to know the children in question personally to care; I just don't want to live near a person who can without any remorse be turned on by abuse of kids.
I don't care that the abuse already happened and he's just looking at the evidence.

And I wouldn't exactly mind or make the effort to call the cops if someone were to gouge his eyes out with a HIV-infected rusty fork.

I'm no drug advocate.
But I'd claim that most people would say a pedophile is about the worst thing in society, somewhere along with people who kill for fun or torture pets for amusement.

At least you can cure a drug addict.
How do you cure someone whose urges to screw children wont go away even with chemical castration?

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June 18, 2011, 12:07:52 AM
 #136


How do you cure someone whose urges to screw children wont go away even with chemical castration?

Who are you arguing with, and why are we still talking about this crap?  If you want to discuss CP and debate it's virtues and vices, start your own thread.  It will make deleting it much easier on us mods.

Until then, this stuff is off-topic.  Way off topic.

"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."

- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'
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June 18, 2011, 12:10:39 AM
 #137

Someone was comparing it to heroin above. They are both illegal in most countries.

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June 18, 2011, 12:19:52 AM
 #138

Someone was comparing it to heroin above. They are both illegal in most countries.

And it has been pointed out that the two are not comparable despite both being illegal in most countries.  One is 'malum prohibitum' (http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/malum+prohibitum) and the other is 'malum in se' (http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/malum%20in%20se).  They don't belong in the same context.

"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."

- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'
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June 18, 2011, 12:34:36 AM
 #139

That's the point. A junkie shooting himself up with coke or a hippie just having a few joints is victimless (though coercion, death and extortion is often a part of producing 'harder' drugs due to the massive profit margins due to illegality -> cycle)

I don't mind if some guy buys pot on Silk Road for bitcoins. If they buy CP I wouldn't want anything to do with them & would hope an undercover busts them eventually (though a very paranoid pedo might be hard to catch).

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June 18, 2011, 02:05:22 AM
 #140

http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=6232.0

The CP tangent belongs there.

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October 02, 2013, 05:26:01 PM
 #141

The Silk Road criminal complaint references this thread -  http://www.scribd.com/doc/172764080/Ulbricht-Criminal-Complaint  (page 25)

Post #71 quotes a deleted post by a user "altoid" referenced in the complaint.  I wonder if the thought experiment discussions in this thread inspired the creation of the Silk Road...

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October 02, 2013, 10:13:33 PM
 #142

Yep,

It appears the original reply by altoid has been deleted, though it was quoted multiple times:

(probably berried in the desert or in a forest)

Somehow, I'm seeing tremendous increase of popularity of forest sightseeing Wink

What an awesome thread!  You guys have a ton of great ideas.  Has anyone seen Silk Road yet?  It's kind of like an anonymous amazon.com.  I don't think they have heroin on there, but they are selling other stuff.  They basically use bitcoin and tor to broker anonymous transactions.  It's at http://tydgccykixpbu6uz.onion.  Those not familiar with Tor can go to silkroad420.wordpress.com for instructions on how to access the .onion site.

Let me know what you guys think

So here we go, first Bitcoin drug store.
We're going into deep water faster than i thought then.

I wonder how long will it take for govs to start investigating Bitcoin.

Interesting to read back on the conversation that happened two and a half years ago, and to see how much has changed since.

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October 09, 2013, 09:27:53 PM
 #143

The Silk Road criminal complaint references this thread -  http://www.scribd.com/doc/172764080/Ulbricht-Criminal-Complaint  (page 25)

Post #71 quotes a deleted post by a user "altoid" referenced in the complaint.  I wonder if the thought experiment discussions in this thread inspired the creation of the Silk Road...

Ugh. The thought makes me shudder.

Back then this forum was a more innocent place, full of dreamers discussing what at the time felt like improbable scenarios out of a William Gibson novel.  I was really taken by surprise how soon this fantasy became reality, how soon this whole bitcoin experiment became serious fucking business.  Very surreal to read this thread in retrospect.   At least it's nice to see that my predictions were right Smiley

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October 09, 2013, 09:46:13 PM
 #144

 At least it's nice to see that my predictions were right Smiley

I question that.  I see the Feds arrest a guy that lived with roomates, and couldn't really afford a car.  One who walked to a internet cafe to access the website for maintaince issues.  And yet, the feds say this guy is the one in charge (among at least six admins) and claim that he is the owner of an $80 million encrypted bitcoin wallet that they can't seem to break into.

I, for one, think that this guy was an employee.  While he wasn't starving, he certainly didn't act like a guy that had access to 80 million dollars in an untaxable format.

"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."

- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'
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October 15, 2013, 12:26:05 AM
 #145

 At least it's nice to see that my predictions were right Smiley

I question that.  I see the Feds arrest a guy that lived with roomates, and couldn't really afford a car.  One who walked to a internet cafe to access the website for maintaince issues.  And yet, the feds say this guy is the one in charge (among at least six admins) and claim that he is the owner of an $80 million encrypted bitcoin wallet that they can't seem to break into.

I, for one, think that this guy was an employee.  While he wasn't starving, he certainly didn't act like a guy that had access to 80 million dollars in an untaxable format.

Where did you get this information from? I haven't read anything and am curious on where you pulled the info up about his personal life.

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October 15, 2013, 12:57:16 AM
 #146

 At least it's nice to see that my predictions were right Smiley

I question that.  I see the Feds arrest a guy that lived with roomates, and couldn't really afford a car.  One who walked to a internet cafe to access the website for maintaince issues.  And yet, the feds say this guy is the one in charge (among at least six admins) and claim that he is the owner of an $80 million encrypted bitcoin wallet that they can't seem to break into.

I, for one, think that this guy was an employee.  While he wasn't starving, he certainly didn't act like a guy that had access to 80 million dollars in an untaxable format.

Where did you get this information from? I haven't read anything and am curious on where you pulled the info up about his personal life.

http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2013/10/how-the-feds-took-down-the-dread-pirate-roberts/


"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."

- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'
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