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Author Topic: US Debt at $19,959,943,400,000 will $20 trillion make the news?  (Read 4577 times)
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February 03, 2017, 04:36:31 AM
 #81

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one time 14.25% wealth tax on the super-rich would wipe-out the federal debt

This is not possible in effect without great destruction to industry, its a misunderstanding if anything.   If they instigated a killing fields scenario where people above a certain wealth were killed off and their value captured for government means, you would still be losing the effective use of free capital in wider industry not to mention any human value.    I assume violence because the money evade capture and most value is not stored in cash but in Cyprus they did a 'haircut' on savings so maybe Im exaggerating but I think its destructive anyway and Cyprus hasnt gone onto strengths from it

 The main loss would be lack of investment in future, it cant be understated how highly USA is regarded now in its debt worthiness.
Its become unjustified as US dollar is a proxy for world trade done.   Of course its ridiculous to be talking about seizing wealth as a way of restoring a nations fiscal problems but also it has been tried and failed many times, in case anyone forgot communism at least in as a military dictatorship did not produce prosperity.  It led to mass starvation, many programs of seizing wealth did not help countries.  Tax rates over 90% have been used in western countries, such as UK and USA in the past.  
Either the tax rate was avoided by various schemes and bargains or simply the wealth left the country and operated outside it.

The realistic outcome is default or inflation.   Politics prefers inflation and sees the stable erosion of capital as a fair tax and its also a way of seizing savings, pensioners especially suffer if not working or tied to working capital.   Default would mean strong dollar possibly and a bad reputation for future government borrowing, however business might prosper still and so the tax income allows government to continue to operate.
   The possibility Trump is going to negotiate all this seems so unlikely, bad debt absolutely will matter to USA staying as a super power and there is precedent for transition and bargaining of power by large nations being based around financial weakness.   Start exporting, run a fiscal surplus and possibly thats a real strong dollar not just a supported one

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February 03, 2017, 07:57:04 PM
 #82

There is not going to be any impact, the vicious circle would simply continue because the hell of global financial system was designed to create debts that would never be paid off. As a matter of fact, printing money from thin air have always been the name of the game, money backed by nothingness - where would the money to repay it be coming from?

Donald Trump had a very good idea to remove the federal debt. Before he was considering his presidential candidacy, he once said that a one time 14.25% wealth tax on the super-rich would wipe-out the federal debt.

http://edition.cnn.com/ALLPOLITICS/stories/1999/11/09/trump.rich/index.html?_s=PM:ALLPOLITICS

But then I really doubt whether he would consider such a step now.  Grin
I looked again at the date and that was Tuesday November, 1999, very close to being two decades afterwards!  Laudable as that sounds, but why have we heard nothing in that regards after all these years and even in the run up for his election?  One thing just called to my mind - is it the same 1% of Americans who controls 90% of the wealth of the country, who refused to back Obamacare that would now gladly part with 14.25% levy on their net worth for the sake of 99% of Americans?  Would make a very interesting movie and can't wait to see how it all works out (if ever) especially now that Trump is the number 1 citizen.

According to the CNN opinion poll, a majority of the American HNWs (high net worth individuals) supported the Democrat candidate during the POTUS 2016 elections. This includes oligarchs such as Sergey Brin, Larry Page, Tim Cook, Mark Zuckerberg.etc, who are solidly anti-Trump. Trump will enjoy taxing these folks.

HNWIs love trump. Alone the corporate tax reduction saves them 280 billion $.
Not to talk about the other tax reductions.

Trump himself is a billionaire. It wouldnt wonder me if he would govern the US as berlusconi did in Italy.
Ursury and corruption is not far - ah wait he stepped down from being CEO of the trump buisnesses; his kids are managing it now... Roll Eyes

Like trump berlusconi used the msm to his advantage.
(Berlusconi bought the msm, trump the alt-right media)

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February 03, 2017, 09:49:32 PM
 #83

Quote
one time 14.25% wealth tax on the super-rich would wipe-out the federal debt

This is not possible in effect without great destruction to industry, its a misunderstanding if anything.   If they instigated a killing fields scenario where people above a certain wealth were killed off and their value captured for government means, you would still be losing the effective use of free capital in wider industry not to mention any human value.    I assume violence because the money evade capture and most value is not stored in cash but in Cyprus they did a 'haircut' on savings so maybe Im exaggerating but I think its destructive anyway and Cyprus hasnt gone onto strengths from it

 The main loss would be lack of investment in future, it cant be understated how highly USA is regarded now in its debt worthiness.
Its become unjustified as US dollar is a proxy for world trade done.   Of course its ridiculous to be talking about seizing wealth as a way of restoring a nations fiscal problems but also it has been tried and failed many times, in case anyone forgot communism at least in as a military dictatorship did not produce prosperity.  It led to mass starvation, many programs of seizing wealth did not help countries.  Tax rates over 90% have been used in western countries, such as UK and USA in the past.  
Either the tax rate was avoided by various schemes and bargains or simply the wealth left the country and operated outside it.

The realistic outcome is default or inflation.   Politics prefers inflation and sees the stable erosion of capital as a fair tax and its also a way of seizing savings, pensioners especially suffer if not working or tied to working capital.   Default would mean strong dollar possibly and a bad reputation for future government borrowing, however business might prosper still and so the tax income allows government to continue to operate.
   The possibility Trump is going to negotiate all this seems so unlikely, bad debt absolutely will matter to USA staying as a super power and there is precedent for transition and bargaining of power by large nations being based around financial weakness.   Start exporting, run a fiscal surplus and possibly thats a real strong dollar not just a supported one
This is correct but while it gives the impression of being a fair tax it is not, the rich can just move their money to tangible assets like houses, land, gold, silver, bitcoin, the poor did not have much to begin with, the ones that lose a lot by inflating the currency is the middle class and not only they lose their savings but most of the time their jobs as well.



.
.BITVEST DICE.
HAS BEEN RELEASED!


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February 04, 2017, 12:01:40 AM
 #84

Quote
one time 14.25% wealth tax on the super-rich would wipe-out the federal debt

This is not possible in effect without great destruction to industry, its a misunderstanding if anything.   If they instigated a killing fields scenario where people above a certain wealth were killed off and their value captured for government means, you would still be losing the effective use of free capital in wider industry not to mention any human value.    I assume violence because the money evade capture and most value is not stored in cash but in Cyprus they did a 'haircut' on savings so maybe Im exaggerating but I think its destructive anyway and Cyprus hasnt gone onto strengths from it

 The main loss would be lack of investment in future, it cant be understated how highly USA is regarded now in its debt worthiness.
Its become unjustified as US dollar is a proxy for world trade done.   Of course its ridiculous to be talking about seizing wealth as a way of restoring a nations fiscal problems but also it has been tried and failed many times, in case anyone forgot communism at least in as a military dictatorship did not produce prosperity.  It led to mass starvation, many programs of seizing wealth did not help countries.  Tax rates over 90% have been used in western countries, such as UK and USA in the past.  
Either the tax rate was avoided by various schemes and bargains or simply the wealth left the country and operated outside it.

The realistic outcome is default or inflation.   Politics prefers inflation and sees the stable erosion of capital as a fair tax and its also a way of seizing savings, pensioners especially suffer if not working or tied to working capital.   Default would mean strong dollar possibly and a bad reputation for future government borrowing, however business might prosper still and so the tax income allows government to continue to operate.
   The possibility Trump is going to negotiate all this seems so unlikely, bad debt absolutely will matter to USA staying as a super power and there is precedent for transition and bargaining of power by large nations being based around financial weakness.   Start exporting, run a fiscal surplus and possibly thats a real strong dollar not just a supported one
This is correct but while it gives the impression of being a fair tax it is not, the rich can just move their money to tangible assets like houses, land, gold, silver, bitcoin, the poor did not have much to begin with, the ones that lose a lot by inflating the currency is the middle class and not only they lose their savings but most of the time their jobs as well.


Now we can easily buy bitcoin and store them and move them around as we please. For the first time in history we have an hedge against the collapsing system to operate with as average joes. Like you said, before bitcoin, the only people allowed too do that were the elite. Now we all can escape the system.

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February 04, 2017, 12:29:48 AM
 #85

Quote
one time 14.25% wealth tax on the super-rich would wipe-out the federal debt

This is not possible in effect without great destruction to industry, its a misunderstanding if anything.   If they instigated a killing fields scenario where people above a certain wealth were killed off and their value captured for government means, you would still be losing the effective use of free capital in wider industry not to mention any human value.    I assume violence because the money evade capture and most value is not stored in cash but in Cyprus they did a 'haircut' on savings so maybe Im exaggerating but I think its destructive anyway and Cyprus hasnt gone onto strengths from it

 The main loss would be lack of investment in future, it cant be understated how highly USA is regarded now in its debt worthiness.
Its become unjustified as US dollar is a proxy for world trade done.   Of course its ridiculous to be talking about seizing wealth as a way of restoring a nations fiscal problems but also it has been tried and failed many times, in case anyone forgot communism at least in as a military dictatorship did not produce prosperity.  It led to mass starvation, many programs of seizing wealth did not help countries.  Tax rates over 90% have been used in western countries, such as UK and USA in the past.  
Either the tax rate was avoided by various schemes and bargains or simply the wealth left the country and operated outside it.

The realistic outcome is default or inflation.   Politics prefers inflation and sees the stable erosion of capital as a fair tax and its also a way of seizing savings, pensioners especially suffer if not working or tied to working capital.   Default would mean strong dollar possibly and a bad reputation for future government borrowing, however business might prosper still and so the tax income allows government to continue to operate.
   The possibility Trump is going to negotiate all this seems so unlikely, bad debt absolutely will matter to USA staying as a super power and there is precedent for transition and bargaining of power by large nations being based around financial weakness.   Start exporting, run a fiscal surplus and possibly thats a real strong dollar not just a supported one
This is correct but while it gives the impression of being a fair tax it is not, the rich can just move their money to tangible assets like houses, land, gold, silver, bitcoin, the poor did not have much to begin with, the ones that lose a lot by inflating the currency is the middle class and not only they lose their savings but most of the time their jobs as well.

The rich won't change their asset classification, they will just move. It is very easy to get foreign citizenship these days.
If you have deep pockets, it will be processed very quickly too.

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February 04, 2017, 10:05:53 PM
 #86

Quote
one time 14.25% wealth tax on the super-rich would wipe-out the federal debt

This is not possible in effect without great destruction to industry, its a misunderstanding if anything.   If they instigated a killing fields scenario where people above a certain wealth were killed off and their value captured for government means, you would still be losing the effective use of free capital in wider industry not to mention any human value.    I assume violence because the money evade capture and most value is not stored in cash but in Cyprus they did a 'haircut' on savings so maybe Im exaggerating but I think its destructive anyway and Cyprus hasnt gone onto strengths from it

 The main loss would be lack of investment in future, it cant be understated how highly USA is regarded now in its debt worthiness.
Its become unjustified as US dollar is a proxy for world trade done.   Of course its ridiculous to be talking about seizing wealth as a way of restoring a nations fiscal problems but also it has been tried and failed many times, in case anyone forgot communism at least in as a military dictatorship did not produce prosperity.  It led to mass starvation, many programs of seizing wealth did not help countries.  Tax rates over 90% have been used in western countries, such as UK and USA in the past.  
Either the tax rate was avoided by various schemes and bargains or simply the wealth left the country and operated outside it.

The realistic outcome is default or inflation.   Politics prefers inflation and sees the stable erosion of capital as a fair tax and its also a way of seizing savings, pensioners especially suffer if not working or tied to working capital.   Default would mean strong dollar possibly and a bad reputation for future government borrowing, however business might prosper still and so the tax income allows government to continue to operate.
   The possibility Trump is going to negotiate all this seems so unlikely, bad debt absolutely will matter to USA staying as a super power and there is precedent for transition and bargaining of power by large nations being based around financial weakness.   Start exporting, run a fiscal surplus and possibly thats a real strong dollar not just a supported one
This is correct but while it gives the impression of being a fair tax it is not, the rich can just move their money to tangible assets like houses, land, gold, silver, bitcoin, the poor did not have much to begin with, the ones that lose a lot by inflating the currency is the middle class and not only they lose their savings but most of the time their jobs as well.

The rich won't change their asset classification, they will just move. It is very easy to get foreign citizenship these days.
If you have deep pockets, it will be processed very quickly too.
That is an option too, but if dollar is hyper inflating and you have most of your savings in it then you need to move your money, also I want to say that if there is a wealth tax you could avoid it with what you say, but you must know there are laws that could make getting around such a tax more difficult.



.
.BITVEST DICE.
HAS BEEN RELEASED!


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February 04, 2017, 10:12:26 PM
 #87

I will really want to know the composition of the debt with that I can know whether to castigate the ruling class or not. If the money is borrowed for the betterment of the country then I am good which I doubt though. USA to my understanding is fond of throwing money around in forms of aid in other to still maintain control of world politics in which the money could even come from debt. I think they really need to look for ways to reduce that and maybe the 4th generation can finish paying that debt...

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LeGaulois
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February 04, 2017, 11:32:14 PM
 #88

I will really want to know the composition of the debt with that I can know whether to castigate the ruling class or not. If the money is borrowed for the betterment of the country then I am good which I doubt though. USA to my understanding is fond of throwing money around in forms of aid in other to still maintain control of world politics in which the money could even come from debt. I think they really need to look for ways to reduce that and maybe the 4th generation can finish paying that debt...

the Social Security Trust Fund is the most cause of the usa debt, it is a fund used for retirement money. And the fed is simply monetizing the debt. FED purchases Treasurys from its member banks using credit created with air. Also china and japon both own something like 2 trillions dollars together, they are the largest foreign holders.

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February 05, 2017, 02:10:05 PM
 #89

Quote
one time 14.25% wealth tax on the super-rich would wipe-out the federal debt

This is not possible in effect without great destruction to industry, its a misunderstanding if anything.   If they instigated a killing fields scenario where people above a certain wealth were killed off and their value captured for government means, you would still be losing the effective use of free capital in wider industry not to mention any human value.    I assume violence because the money evade capture and most value is not stored in cash but in Cyprus they did a 'haircut' on savings so maybe Im exaggerating but I think its destructive anyway and Cyprus hasnt gone onto strengths from it

I don't know what is going to happen, because no one has attempted it before. The haircut in Cyprus went ahead smoothly, and apart from a few genuine individuals who saved money in their bank accounts, it was mostly the ex-USSR oligarchs who lost the money. This will go a bit further, by seizing not just a part of the money in the savings accounts, but also other forms of wealth such as real estate and bullion.

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February 05, 2017, 02:39:25 PM
 #90

I can really see a huffpost article saying how we hit $20 trillion under a Trump presidency, and how it wouldn't happen under Clinton.
Would make for great memes.
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February 17, 2017, 03:31:56 AM
 #91

I will really want to know the composition of the debt with that I can know whether to castigate the ruling class or not. If the money is borrowed for the betterment of the country then I am good which I doubt though. USA to my understanding is fond of throwing money around in forms of aid in other to still maintain control of world politics in which the money could even come from debt. I think they really need to look for ways to reduce that and maybe the 4th generation can finish paying that debt...

the Social Security Trust Fund is the most cause of the usa debt, it is a fund used for retirement money. And the fed is simply monetizing the debt. FED purchases Treasurys from its member banks using credit created with air. Also china and japon both own something like 2 trillions dollars together, they are the largest foreign holders.

Honestly think that military spending is where the United States needs to cut back. Reallocate funds back to STEM, and in a decade USA could be paying off this debt. Trump's focus on bringing a couple thousand jobs of manufacturing is only sustainable as long as the government subsidizes it. We should focus on preparing/initiating the fourth revolution, which is probably the only thing to spur enough economic growth to pay off this debt, besides another World War.

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February 17, 2017, 06:55:46 AM
 #92

I can really see a huffpost article saying how we hit $20 trillion under a Trump presidency, and how it wouldn't happen under Clinton.
Would make for great memes.

Right now, the federal debt stands at $19.976 trillion. My guess is that it will cross the $20 trillion mark by next month. What you had posted above is going to happen for real. The MSM will go ballistic over this.

valta4065
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February 17, 2017, 06:22:22 PM
 #93

Quote
one time 14.25% wealth tax on the super-rich would wipe-out the federal debt

 The main loss would be lack of investment in future


If I may
Thinking that high taxation is the ennemy of future investments is wrong.
Basically, currently the rich owns the capital, they make it grow by exploiting the work of the population through investments, and then invest back again.
What's the problem here? The problem is that as the rich are the ones owning the capital, they can decide HOW and at which conditions they will invest it back.

It gives a tremendous power to only a few people.
Huge taxation is the only way to swing this state of power.
Or at least the only way I know.

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valta4065
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February 17, 2017, 06:23:08 PM
 #94

I will really want to know the composition of the debt with that I can know whether to castigate the ruling class or not. If the money is borrowed for the betterment of the country then I am good which I doubt though. USA to my understanding is fond of throwing money around in forms of aid in other to still maintain control of world politics in which the money could even come from debt. I think they really need to look for ways to reduce that and maybe the 4th generation can finish paying that debt...

the Social Security Trust Fund is the most cause of the usa debt, it is a fund used for retirement money. And the fed is simply monetizing the debt. FED purchases Treasurys from its member banks using credit created with air. Also china and japon both own something like 2 trillions dollars together, they are the largest foreign holders.

Honestly think that military spending is where the United States needs to cut back. Reallocate funds back to STEM, and in a decade USA could be paying off this debt. Trump's focus on bringing a couple thousand jobs of manufacturing is only sustainable as long as the government subsidizes it. We should focus on preparing/initiating the fourth revolution, which is probably the only thing to spur enough economic growth to pay off this debt, besides another World War.

That and start really taxing its companies...
But here USA is just like the whole world.
There isn't a single fucking country actually taxing its big companies...

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manselr
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February 17, 2017, 07:38:43 PM
 #95

I will really want to know the composition of the debt with that I can know whether to castigate the ruling class or not. If the money is borrowed for the betterment of the country then I am good which I doubt though. USA to my understanding is fond of throwing money around in forms of aid in other to still maintain control of world politics in which the money could even come from debt. I think they really need to look for ways to reduce that and maybe the 4th generation can finish paying that debt...

the Social Security Trust Fund is the most cause of the usa debt, it is a fund used for retirement money. And the fed is simply monetizing the debt. FED purchases Treasurys from its member banks using credit created with air. Also china and japon both own something like 2 trillions dollars together, they are the largest foreign holders.

Honestly think that military spending is where the United States needs to cut back. Reallocate funds back to STEM, and in a decade USA could be paying off this debt. Trump's focus on bringing a couple thousand jobs of manufacturing is only sustainable as long as the government subsidizes it. We should focus on preparing/initiating the fourth revolution, which is probably the only thing to spur enough economic growth to pay off this debt, besides another World War.

That and start really taxing its companies...
But here USA is just like the whole world.
There isn't a single fucking country actually taxing its big companies...

All big companies leave and stay in tax havens. Look at google, they have been in Ireland not paying barely any taxes compared to what they would have paid in US or Europe. There is just no way to stop this, they will keep doing it. Meanwhile the common citizen is trapped in his country paying big amounts of taxes making shti amounts of money. There is just no winning as an on rich man.
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February 18, 2017, 02:38:59 PM
 #96

That and start really taxing its companies...
But here USA is just like the whole world.
There isn't a single fucking country actually taxing its big companies...

The problem with taxing the big multinational companies is that, if you tax them too much then they will run away to some other country where the tax rate is low. A lot of jobs and tax revenue will be lost.

valta4065
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February 18, 2017, 02:51:03 PM
 #97

That and start really taxing its companies...
But here USA is just like the whole world.
There isn't a single fucking country actually taxing its big companies...

The problem with taxing the big multinational companies is that, if you tax them too much then they will run away to some other country where the tax rate is low. A lot of jobs and tax revenue will be lost.
False
If you tax big companies they can't really run because they can sell their products only in your developed countries.
You can always tax on their sales.

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manselr
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February 18, 2017, 04:14:06 PM
 #98

That and start really taxing its companies...
But here USA is just like the whole world.
There isn't a single fucking country actually taxing its big companies...

The problem with taxing the big multinational companies is that, if you tax them too much then they will run away to some other country where the tax rate is low. A lot of jobs and tax revenue will be lost.
False
If you tax big companies they can't really run because they can sell their products only in your developed countries.
You can always tax on their sales.

It's not that easy. Let's see what Trump does about it. I want to see him pushing Google and other big multinationals but chances are he will not be able to do anything, the billionaire multinational companies always find a way to win.

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February 18, 2017, 04:20:01 PM
 #99

Here's the debt count as of this morning: 19,924,079,093,933....wait, where did you get your number!?!?

The real question is that since the US and all governments can make money to fund their expenses if debt dries up, what's the real need to pay this off? The pay off is passed down to citizens who have to live with a weaker and weaker currency due to inflation, no?

I love the bitcoin alternative for this reason!



Vaccinus
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February 18, 2017, 05:07:11 PM
 #100

That and start really taxing its companies...
But here USA is just like the whole world.
There isn't a single fucking country actually taxing its big companies...

The problem with taxing the big multinational companies is that, if you tax them too much then they will run away to some other country where the tax rate is low. A lot of jobs and tax revenue will be lost.

how they can run away so easily in another country to avoid big tax? they would pay a very big amount to move to another location just to avoid a % of tax, i don't think it's worth it, the government need to control more tax evasion from politician and big istitution if they want to get rid of that debt,, this is my opinion

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