Bitcoin 2.0

[alex_fun]

Walter well what are you comments on the following trend

Any coin that starts with diff 1, goes in diff so less coins per hash - miners want price hike to cover costs and make cash, then random people who dont know much about how crypto work can see coins rising and buying into them, then more buy then crash and people say wtf  and many move to coin nr 2,3,4

[1713572640]

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[1713572640]

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[1713572640]

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[alex_fun]

Also later adopters have to see if they are happy to buy coin at say 100 usd thus passing alot of their cash to someone who mined coins at diff 1,4 at far lesser cost or simply buy cheaper alt that also anon, p2p and so on. However if rate is fixed then coin can start at diff that is say cost of equipment plus say 10% profit from mining at low diff. The diff then is unlikely to rise alot since fix rate wont cover the cost. Then miners who wants to make cash are to advertise coin aka spreading its transactional potential and earning money in transactional fees

[alexh]

Fixed rate p2p coins are the solution IMO.

[AlgoSwan]

Banning all fiat money to exhange BTC or other cryptocurrency

You know that banning stuff is evil, right?

You are welcome to make a personal decision not to exchange BTC for certain things, and to exhort others to make the same decision.  Personally, I don't spend Coin on gambling, nor on mind altering substances, and I would encourage other people to make the same personal decision.  But it would be an immoral act for me to try to actually restrain them from doing so.  Trying to ban people from gambling, using mind altering substances, or exchanging Coin for fiat would be an act far, far more evil than "market manipulation."

Now, I am not here to force my morality on you, but can you see that you are proposing to force your morality on other people?  Give up the use of force!  Those who live by force will justly suffer when force is used against them.

I totally agree with you about freedom. All I'm saying is trading hard-earned (mined) BTCs with any fiat money opens a very-wide door to market manipulators, sharks, wolves, whatever you want to call them it is. And market manipulation is their profession, they're doing this with great expertise. We the BTC community looks like a cooked lambs for them. They just enter the dining room, eating us slowly. In other words, they don't need to raid physically any unregulated BTC exchange offices and grab all the hard-earned (mined) BTCs of miners. Manipulation does this very easily. Your argument gives total freedom to these manipulators. Blaming BTC miners for their greed is non-sense at all. We have a perfect light for darkness: financial history of the last century, especially last 10 years gives us a brief knowledge about manipulation, greed, scam on financial institutions, financial regulations, and whatever the fancy terminology start with financial....

They're stealing miners hard earned BTC's very subtly. Thats it.

[Operatr]

It seems pretty obvious we need a new coin with a fixed conversion rate that can only be traded between individuals & businesses. How else can we stop hackers, governments or wall street from f**king everything up?

Already launched 12 days ago. Google "Bytecoin".

Bytecoin is a carbon copy of Bitcoin, which like most I have no idea why it exists. I get it if the new crypto is different somehow or is designed with a certain role to fill, but why a clone? Help Bitcoin instead.

[christop]

They're stealing miners hard earned BTC's very subtly. Thats it.

The manipulators are stealing bitcoins from the miners, who have chosen to sell their bitcoins on an exchange at an agreed-upon rate? Should we ban silver market speculators from trading in fiat too? They're crashing the price of silver all the time! (Of course, the price of silver, like bitcoin, has been in an upward trend in the long run, despite these short-term "crashes".)

You still haven't answered the key question about this type of regulation: who will enforce it?

[alex_fun]

Its very easy to create new coin where 10% of coins are held for 1 week to stabilize rate.  Miners who try to mine with some diff algo simply find their blocks rejected same as if someone tries to mine btc with their own funky settings The 51% attack - initially miners can be given some auth to mine, auth linked to forum name here. If someone goes awol and try to do 51% he is out Eventually hashpower can be large enough, especially when low cost scrypt frga are developed Also some large pools could join it who knows

[Walter Rothbard]

=Your argument gives total freedom to these manipulators.

Freedom is moral, taking away freedom is immoral.

They're stealing miners hard earned BTC's very subtly. Thats it.

I hate it when people redefine "stealing."

If you have a nugget of iron, and I take it from you without your consent, that's stealing.

If you have a nugget of iron and are offering it for sale for 10.0 BTC, and I find an equivalent nugget of iron and offer it for sale for 5.0 BTC, and now nobody will pay you 10.0 BTC for your nugget, but will only pay you 5.0 BTC, I haven't "stolen" anything from you, even though you have suffered a loss of value.

Just because somebody's actions result in a loss of value for your assets, that does not mean anybody has "stolen" anything.  Every day, people outcompete other people and the value of specific assets decline.  That is not stealing.  If I buy a bunch of stuff at certain times and sell a bunch of stuff at certain times, and it affects the market value of your stuff, that doesn't mean I'm a thief!

[AlgoSwan]

I hate it when people redefine "stealing."

If you have a nugget of iron, and I take it from you without your consent, that's stealing.

If you have a nugget of iron and are offering it for sale for 10.0 BTC, and I find an equivalent nugget of iron and offer it for sale for 5.0 BTC, and now nobody will pay you 10.0 BTC for your nugget, but will only pay you 5.0 BTC, I haven't "stolen" anything from you, even though you have suffered a loss of value.

Just because somebody's actions result in a loss of value for your assets, that does not mean anybody has "stolen" anything.  Every day, people outcompete other people and the value of specific assets decline.  That is not stealing.  If I buy a bunch of stuff at certain times and sell a bunch of stuff at certain times, and it affects the market value of your stuff, that doesn't mean I'm a thief!

You're playing with the words here. You perfectly describe a healthy market (unregulated and manipulation free market). And with this condition (fair market practice), you're totally right about "stealing" word is non-sense at all. However if you add bad guys (manipulators with fiat) to any healthy market, the word "stealing" becomes available to these operations. Have you ever heard JPM's paper short selling on silver (AG)? It is called manipulation by all means. How can you short more than total world silver? (I mean total world silver as un-mined and mined silver together) With paper selling (short one) via futures market it is possible. In this way you can control everything and its prices. Don't believe me, it is just another conspiracy theory. Yeah,,, just google it!

[Rassah]

Fixed rate p2p coins are the solution IMO.

Fixed rate p2p coins are an idea. A detailed method to actually implement that idea, in a way that will prevent counterfeiting, double-spending, spamming, DoSing, and price manipulating is a hypothetical solution. It actually working better once tested is a solution.

[AlgoSwan]

Fixed rate p2p coins is not the best option to prevent bad trading practices. We all know who is manipulating the market. And we also know how they do it. All we have to do is accept tangible things for our BTCs. It is like old bartering practices. We all know how this fiat came to the town. Now this is the only game in town. It is ruining every good idea no matter how sophisticated your new cryptocurrency, fiat will destroy it. This so called 21 million BTC's will be owned by paper, maybe not now, but it is an easy job for them anytime. But they don't want it now. I think they love this cryptocurrency innovation. Most probably they support it first, maybe still they are supporting it. Why? Simple: it destroys the faith to gold and other precious metals and it is helping to make a simulation to show the gold is not precious at all. Buffet recently joining the team with owning GS and telling gold is not safe at all. It is no coincidence that Dow Jones and SP500 made all time highs with BTC. All things connected each other except gold. Me? I'm not a gold bug, never. Just an average Joe who is reading too much about financial history and bad guys. And I know reading is very different from living, especially your mother tongue is not english at all. By the way, I like this community. Most of people here are very friendly, innovative and of course very smart.

[Walter Rothbard]

Fixed rate to what?  A fiat currency?  That's not exactly "fixed."

If you want mintchip, you know where to find it.

[krncoolwater]

Well, if you guys don't thing the market was manipulated then let's agree to disagree on that.

If there is no stability in the value of a bitcoin how can you expect it to be adopted? If you sell me something today and I pay you with bitcoins on what basis are you calculating how much coins I should pay you? Do you just pick a number out of thin air? No, you peg it to a Fiat currency and if those bitcoins are worth a 1/4 of their value a day later wouldn't you be a bit pissed? How can bitcoin be widely adopted in that kind of environment?

I have to disagree to peg it to a fiat currency. Never has in history the world over involved massively in all fiat currency and now much countries are debasing their currency in a mutually exclusive suicidal attempt to increase their countries respective exports. There are serious consequences to debasing one countries currency.  The Federal Reserve Note since 1913 has lost 96%+ of its value as its debt has increased 5,000 times.  Hows the hope and change thing working out now? Peg it to a basket of hard assets and by God do not let the CFTC regulate it; like they do to the price of Gold/Oil.  Starve the beast...