Markit manipulation in China or ...

[Gleb Gamow]

http://mobile.reuters.com/article/technologyNews/idUSKBN1570EZ

BTCC, Huobi and OkCoin said in separate statements on their websites late on Sunday that they will charge traders a flat fee of 0.2 percent per transaction.

Exactly how does three independent exchange entities all pen on their respective websites Sunday night that ALL will be charging the same exact trader fee of 0.2%/transaction come Tuesday when formally ALL three formerly had a 0% fee in place sans communicating with one another?

TBC, I already have a reply at the ready if the answer is that they communicated with one another. Think about it!

"Then by the power of ESP I got all three Chinese exchanges to start charging a 0.2% transaction fee unbeknownst to them individually that the other two legacy exchanges were going to do the same exact thing at the exact very same time, all under the watchful eye of Chinese regulators investigating if there's any market manipulation afoot."

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[odolvlobo]

It's pretty obvious that they reached an agreement, maybe motivated by pressure from the PBOC. Whie cartels are anti-competitive, I don't consider such an agreement to be market manipulation.

[Gleb Gamow]

It's pretty obvious that they reached an agreement, maybe motivated by pressure from the PBOC. Whie cartels are anti-competitive, I don't consider such an agreement to be market manipulation.

US AIR: Hello, United, what are you fares going to be next week, and don't tell the regulators that I called.
United: US AIR, you're so funny! Log into the backend of our website for the answer as we do to check out your next week fares.
US AIR: HEHEHE! You said backend. 

I guess the joke would've made more sense if I stated the cost of carry-on luggage fees oppose to fares.

[Pursuer]

BTCC, Huobi and OkCoin said in separate statements on their websites late on Sunday that they will charge traders a flat fee of 0.2 percent per transaction.

Exactly how does three independent exchange entities all pen on their respective websites Sunday night that ALL will be charging the same exact trader fee of 0.2%/transaction come Tuesday when formally ALL three formerly had a 0% fee in place sans communicating with one another?

I don't get which part of it was strange to you.
- they all reside in the same country with the same rules.
- these rules changed one day so they changed their rules too at the same time.
- PBoC didn't go to them individually, they launched investigation on all of them at the same time, and released a statement at the same time for all of them again at the same time.
- they all were forced to stop a big part of their operation which was making them money at the same time, so they have to make money in other ways (adding fees) again at the same time.

or am I missing something?!!

[NorrisK]

It is pretty clear that they had to make arrangements if they were going to introduce fees at all. If even one would not join, it would leave the others at a severe competitive disadvantage.

It will be interesting to see what remains of the volumes and how much of the accusations of fake volume are true now.

[Pursuer]

It is pretty clear that they had to make arrangements if they were going to introduce fees at all. If even one would not join, it would leave the others at a severe competitive disadvantage.

I disagree.
now that they are under the strict observation of PBoC and things have become much harder for them, in the sense of manipulation and fake volumes, and also they removed their margin trading,... they can no longer function with 0 fees. that 0.2% fee becomes almost all their profit.

it is like a shop that was giving away free samples to bring in new customers and profit from them buying his goods and now nobody buys their goods and they only take the free samples and go away. they go bankrupt if they continue giving away free stuff.

[Kemarit]

What do you think guys? Will those charging fees discourage or even drive out Chinese investors in bitcoin?

[kiklo]

The Exchanges are being investigated for Price Manipulation.
(Which is how they all made their money by manipulating the Price.)

Now they all switch to fees, because profit from manipulation will end.

It would be interesting to know how closely the Chinese Mining Pools are working with the Chinese Exchanges.

If BTC Price & Volume drop off in the next week or so,
you will know that the Chinese have been playing the whole world for fools, by falsely inflating the price, & hoarding the majority of BTC mined.  

Ask yourself , how do you run a business and never charge your clients a fee to pay your bills for years.
The answer , is you are doing something criminal to steal money from somewhere.  



 

[BillyBobZorton]

It's clear that china is a strong force in dictating what the price of bitcoin is, but make no mistake, we are seeing a decentralization of bitcoin again, china is not going to be the power that it was, we will see a lot of chinese hashrate decentralized too. PBOC is not as effective anymore.

[talkbitcoin]

It would be interesting to know how closely the Chinese Mining Pools are working with the Chinese Exchanges.

mining pools are mining pools, they don't have much power because they don't earn as much as you think they do. i think what you meant to say was mining farms. and even in that case i say it is conspiracy theory.

If BTC Price & Volume drop off in the next week or so,
you will know that the Chinese have been playing the whole world for fools, by falsely inflating the price, & hoarding the majority of BTC mined. 

yeap, it is conspiracy theory.
the volume is going to drop and it has already started because with a 0.2% fee you can no longer make as many trades as you were making before.
because they removed margin trading which made most of that volume.
and obviously some part of it was fake volume.

the price has nothing to do with this. although there may be some volatility because of the FUD in the near future.

and about hoarding i have to say, their bitcoin addresses are public anyone can see whether or not they are hoarding and who is holding lots of bitcoin easily.

Ask yourself , how do you run a business and never charge your clients a fee to pay your bills for years.
The answer , is you are doing something criminal to steal money from somewhere.

not necessarily, although i am not denying that it looked shady but "trading fees" is not the only way of making money as an exchange service.

[Xester]

Market manipulation is one of the suspected reasons why the sudden volatility has occurred a few weeks ago. It was being traced to Chinese exchangers wherein some suspected fake volumes were placed and then suddenly a huge dump occurred. The said increase in transaction fee was announced to the public as a measure to counter the market manipulation and sudden volatility.

[alyssa85]

http://mobile.reuters.com/article/technologyNews/idUSKBN1570EZ

BTCC, Huobi and OkCoin said in separate statements on their websites late on Sunday that they will charge traders a flat fee of 0.2 percent per transaction.

Exactly how does three independent exchange entities all pen on their respective websites Sunday night that ALL will be charging the same exact trader fee of 0.2%/transaction come Tuesday when formally ALL three formerly had a 0% fee in place sans communicating with one another?

TBC, I already have a reply at the ready if the answer is that they communicated with one another. Think about it!

It is not market manipulation, it is government manipulation. They've all been ordered by the PBOC to stop margin trading, stop making margin loans and to have fees of 0.2% on trading, and they have all complied in order, in Bobby Lee's words, to "appease" the PBOC.

The China thing is holding bitcoin back. We have mining centralisation, what appears to be trading centralisation combined with heavy handed government instructions on how to operate the exchanges. The sooner an alt comes up that solves the China problem, the better.

[Kprawn]

http://mobile.reuters.com/article/technologyNews/idUSKBN1570EZ

BTCC, Huobi and OkCoin said in separate statements on their websites late on Sunday that they will charge traders a flat fee of 0.2 percent per transaction.

Exactly how does three independent exchange entities all pen on their respective websites Sunday night that ALL will be charging the same exact trader fee of 0.2%/transaction come Tuesday when formally ALL three formerly had a 0% fee in place sans communicating with one another?

TBC, I already have a reply at the ready if the answer is that they communicated with one another. Think about it!

It is not market manipulation, it is government manipulation. They've all been ordered by the PBOC to stop margin trading, stop making margin loans and to have fees of 0.2% on trading, and they have all complied in order, in Bobby Lee's words, to "appease" the PBOC.

The China thing is holding bitcoin back. We have mining centralisation, what appears to be trading centralisation combined with heavy handed government instructions on how to operate the exchanges. The sooner an alt comes up that solves the China problem, the better.

The Chinese are not bothered with all these Western opinions on anti-competitive regulations and so forth.. They navigate their way past all of

that, and allow people to charge a flat rate for exchange fees. If they gave them a fee range between 0.2 and 1 % ...most would opt for the

cheapest fees, because their traders was used to zero fees and people would just shift to the cheapest exchange. 

[odolvlobo]

It would be interesting to know how closely the Chinese Mining Pools are working with the Chinese Exchanges.

BTCC has its own mining pool. So what?

If BTC Price & Volume drop off in the next week or so,
you will know that the Chinese have been playing the whole world for fools, by falsely inflating the price, & hoarding the majority of BTC mined.  

It is widely believed that the Chinese exchanges pad their volume numbers, but a drop in volume won't prove it. Volume will drop because traders will now have to pay to trade when it used to be free.

Ask yourself , how do you run a business and never charge your clients a fee to pay your bills for years.
The answer , is you are doing something criminal to steal money from somewhere.  

Though trading was free, the Chinese exchanges charged fees on money withdrawn from the exchange.

[~Bitcoin~]

0.20% is standard trading fees in most of the other platform so may be this chinese platform are just following that same fee structure. Now it seems it will be hard for this platforms to create fake orders and pump the trading volume, which is good for price of bitcoin. This may also limit high pumps and dumps schemes created by some chinese whales.

[iram3130]

Chinese interference into the Bitcoin market is affecting volatility. And Yes, The exchanges may have taken fees for withdrawal but 0.2% for every transaction is too much burden for small traders. But they have to "appease" the PBOC, there is no other solution for them.  

[QuestionAuthority]

There's no such thing as "markit" manipulation. If you don't believe me I'll have my bots chop your fucking head off.

[alyssa85]

The Chinese are not bothered with all these Western opinions on anti-competitive regulations and so forth..

Yeah, but western people are concerned about it, hence this thread. China is holding back bitcoin adoption because the more people read about Chinese domination of bitcoin, Chinese market manipulation, Chinese government interference etc etc, the less likely they are to adopt it.

It is only worth getting into cryptocurrency if it is genuinely decentralised.

If it is going to be centralised, then you are better off with a centralised currency controlled by your OWN govt, whom you can vote out, rather than a centralised currency controlled by an opaque authoritarian govt on the other side of the world over which you have no control at all.

[lionheart78]

I guess these 3 exchanges are communicating to each other, they have the same problems and the same confusion. So probably they talk to each other and since they both does not charge fees, it is expected that at least they will have the same fees, making no one have advantage to one another.  Probably a manipulation to others but it was been a practice of competing companies.  They always have an agreement especially on charges.

[QuestionAuthority]

The Chinese are not bothered with all these Western opinions on anti-competitive regulations and so forth..

Yeah, but western people are concerned about it, hence this thread. China is holding back bitcoin adoption because the more people read about Chinese domination of bitcoin, Chinese market manipulation, Chinese government interference etc etc, the less likely they are to adopt it.

It is only worth getting into cryptocurrency if it is genuinely decentralised.

If it is going to be centralised, then you are better off with a centralised currency controlled by your OWN govt, whom you can vote out, rather than a centralised currency controlled by an opaque authoritarian govt on the other side of the world over which you have no control at all.

You can forget that argument dude. It doesn't work here. The people on this forum don't see that it's better to have currency controlled by a freely elected government. They would much prefer some psycho with a personal agenda (like Mark Karpeles) control their financial future.

[Gleb Gamow]

The Chinese are not bothered with all these Western opinions on anti-competitive regulations and so forth..

Yeah, but western people are concerned about it, hence this thread. China is holding back bitcoin adoption because the more people read about Chinese domination of bitcoin, Chinese market manipulation, Chinese government interference etc etc, the less likely they are to adopt it.

It is only worth getting into cryptocurrency if it is genuinely decentralised.

If it is going to be centralised, then you are better off with a centralised currency controlled by your OWN govt, whom you can vote out, rather than a centralised currency controlled by an opaque authoritarian govt on the other side of the world over which you have no control at all.

Dude, I just wanna comment on your articulation elucidation. Bravo! Seriously, that's the type of prose we should be accustomed to by those participating in sig campaigns. Thanks for your carefully thought-out insight, bud.

I guess these 3 exchanges are communicating to each other, they have the same problems and the same confusion. So probably they talk to each other and since they both does not charge fees, it is expected that at least they will have the same fees, making no one have advantage to one another.  Probably a manipulation to others but it was been a practice of competing companies.  They always have an agreement especially on charges.

Here in the US, such (in bold) is against the law.

The Chinese are not bothered with all these Western opinions on anti-competitive regulations and so forth..

Yeah, but western people are concerned about it, hence this thread. China is holding back bitcoin adoption because the more people read about Chinese domination of bitcoin, Chinese market manipulation, Chinese government interference etc etc, the less likely they are to adopt it.

It is only worth getting into cryptocurrency if it is genuinely decentralised.

If it is going to be centralised, then you are better off with a centralised currency controlled by your OWN govt, whom you can vote out, rather than a centralised currency controlled by an opaque authoritarian govt on the other side of the world over which you have no control at all.

You can forget that argument dude. It doesn't work here. The people on this forum don't see that it's better to have currency controlled by a freely elected government. They would much prefer some psycho with a personal agenda (like Mark Karpeles) control their financial future.

Personally, I prefer being controlled by a bald-headed dude donning a Pussyhat.  <tell your wife I said hello, bud>

[Catmony]

I guess these 3 exchanges are communicating to each other, they have the same problems and the same confusion. So probably they talk to each other and since they both does not charge fees, it is expected that at least they will have the same fees, making no one have advantage to one another.  Probably a manipulation to others but it was been a practice of competing companies.  They always have an agreement especially on charges.

This will also remove the arbitrage opportunity within two chinese trading platform also if all of the trading platform will have some fee than there will be no any comptetition between two of those trading platform. But i think this fee is forced by PBOC after recent investigation rather than due to mutual agreement between them.

[olubams]

With what is really going one cannot but look at that area for some answers even though people might call it coincidences or conspiracy theories. Anything coming from that end has been shaping bitcoin whether we like it or not.

Concerning agreeing on the transaction fees, I think its because the law allow it over there and because they also the volume of what they control and the effect of their impact on the larger community of bitcoin in case they decide to fold up and that is why they can just do anything they deem good...

[marcoman22]

Yes, the three chinese exchanges manipulated a lot.Thats why they didnt charge their customers any trade fees these much days. But after PBOC had a meeting with them and gave some guide lines to follow to avoid their country money going outside via bitcoin, the exchanges found no other way except charging fees of 0.2% per transaction.

[Gleb Gamow]

Yes, the three chinese exchanges manipulated a lot.Thats why they didnt charge their customers any trade fees these much days. But after PBOC had a meeting with them and gave some guide lines to follow to avoid their country money going outside via bitcoin, the exchanges found no other way except charging fees of 0.2% per transaction.

So, either ALL three exchanges were operating on the up-and-up but were forced to charge a 0.2% fee to augment their profitable business model that doesn't including manipulating the market, or they were indeed manipulating the market as the main part of their profitable business model, thanking the regulators for the imposed fees so that they can garner revenue lost due to supposedly no longer manipulating the market, and if the exchanges were truly manipulating the market as the general consensus dictates, then why the hell were, and still are multitude of traders using the nefariously operated exchanges? They should be exiting the exchanges in droves prior to their eminent crashes hoping that their withdraw requests aren't delayed due to some server issue where the likes of Paul Vernon and Mullick need to drive to the likes of a Miami server center to rectify the situation while cohorts calm the masses not banned in respective chat rooms.

[Chris!]

All three at the exact same time need to have a minimum of a 0.2% rate by noon on Tuesday. I think we'll see a lot less volume from Chinese exchanges starting.... NOW!

[odolvlobo]

All three at the exact same time need to have a minimum of a 0.2% rate by noon on Tuesday. I think we'll see a lot less volume from Chinese exchanges starting.... NOW!

That's in 6-1/2 hours. Get your money out now!


Anyway, one of my pet peeves is when a person claims that there is market manipulation without being able to explain exactly how the market is being manipulated.

[Gleb Gamow]

All three at the exact same time need to have a minimum of a 0.2% rate by noon on Tuesday. I think we'll see a lot less volume from Chinese exchanges starting.... NOW!

That's in 6-1/2 hours. Get your money out now!


Anyway, one of my pet peeves is when a person claims that there is market manipulation without being able to explain exactly how the market is being manipulated.

I concur! Fuck them Chinese regulators claiming that the Chinese cryptocurrency exchanges are manipulating the market sans explaining exactly how the market is being manipulated, forcing the exchanges to now include a transaction fee while the exchanges' principals remain mute on the subject with the exception of, "Our bad! We'll play nice now."

Anybody who believes that Bitcoin's recent meteoric rise from ~$700 USD to $1,100+ USD prior to the even quicker freefall on the Chinese exchanges can even be remotely contributed to market manipulation are fuckin idiots. I'd say that them same idiots adamantly believe that three steel-framed high-rise buildings collapsed at freefall speed caused by two fuel-laden, non-lumbering jumbo jets on 911, safely discarding the general consensus by the lunatic fringe that a conspiracy was in play via connecting hundreds or thousands of unrelated dots in advancing their weird-ass theory.

That said, visit the link in my sig to learn about entering into contract with Hashing24 so to cloud-mine bitcoins, paid regularly via BitFury's newly created mined blocks which nary have been spent for over a couple months now, hence your investment is secure from nefarious activities [in Hashing24's pocket, whoever they are].

[aso118]

In ordinary cases, this would be the classic example of cartelization. However, in this case, transaction fees have been proposed after the PBOC did spot checks on the exchanges. The government seems to have gently nudged them.
So who do you go to if you want to complain against these exchanges?

[Gleb Gamow]

In ordinary cases, this would be the classic example of cartelization. However, in this case, transaction fees have been proposed after the PBOC did spot checks on the exchanges. The government seems to have gently nudged them.
So who do you go to if you want to complain against these exchanges?

I'd say that a gentle nudge doesn't result in ALL three changing their websites on a SUNDAY night to reflect the same exact 0.2% trading fee starting Tuesday. Collusion, yes. A mandatory nudge, not outside the realm of possibility. A gentle nudge, no.

Apologies for crowing so loudly, but rumor has it that in some part of the world The Year of the Cock starts next week.

"Here I am petting my friendly cock. GET IT AWAY FROM ME!
GET IT AWAY FROM ME!"

[The Sceptical Chymist]

And we're still holding strong, how's that grab you?  China has a lot of influence on bitcoin (I think), but this is a global thing.  There's only so far that goes. 

I still wonder what the real numbers are as far as how many users/buyers there are geographically.  That info doesn't seem to be very available.

[Gleb Gamow]

Sh*t! It's happening again! We really need to increase that damned block size!

I've been waiting for more than 6 hours for a transaction to be confirmed, and I'm shocked to see there are more than 50,000 in the queue.

https://blockchain.info/unconfirmed-transactions

We need SegWit, or an urgent block size increase. For the sake of BTC, something needs to be done, fast!

Damn all those shoppers using bitcoins for their online et al. purchases while all them traders steadfastly remain on the non-manipulated Chinese exchange platforms.

"Imagine if it were the other way around."

[QuestionAuthority]

And we're still holding strong, how's that grab you?  China has a lot of influence on bitcoin (I think), but this is a global thing.  There's only so far that goes.  

I still wonder what the real numbers are as far as how many users/buyers there are geographically.  That info doesn't seem to be very available.

That info is available and always has been.

http://bitcoincharts.com/markets/

Look under the column labeled "Volume". Here's a hint, the two at the top with all the volume, BTC China and OKCoin, are in China.

Here's an image of the current Bitcoin globe.

[LeGaulois]

The Exchanges are being investigated for Price Manipulation.
(Which is how they all made their money by manipulating the Price.)

Now they all switch to fees, because profit from manipulation will end.

It would be interesting to know how closely the Chinese Mining Pools are working with the Chinese Exchanges.

If BTC Price & Volume drop off in the next week or so,
you will know that the Chinese have been playing the whole world for fools, by falsely inflating the price, & hoarding the majority of BTC mined.  

Ask yourself , how do you run a business and never charge your clients a fee to pay your bills for years.
The answer , is you are doing something criminal to steal money from somewhere.  



 

Quite agree with you.  And comparing with banks in my country, that's why they invented a new monthly fee, for "account maintenance", as said they are making very less money with interests, ect. So they needed to find fresh bread somewhere. Not much different compare to those exchanges

A paradox, BTC is under the influence of China for more than a year. mining Companies that validate transactions, are based in this country to take advantage of a lower electricity cost.
Okcoin, and the 2 others attracted 95 percent of global volumes over the last 6 months

[bryant.coleman]

I am not feeling very comfortable with the current situation. The exchange rates rose to almost $1,200, before falling back to $800-820 level. And once again, some news from China was the reason behind the crash. Back in 2013, I remember some similar news from China crashing the exchange rates from $1,200+ to $750 per coin.

[cryp24x]

I am not feeling very comfortable with the current situation. The exchange rates rose to almost $1,200, before falling back to $800-820 level. And once again, some news from China was the reason behind the crash. Back in 2013, I remember some similar news from China crashing the exchange rates from $1,200+ to $750 per coin.

Yeah seems we can see the pattern here, well at least people are a bit resistant now than before. We can see the difference in reaction of market way back 2013 and now.  Last 2014 as soon as China release the news, price plummet and continue to downtrend until sub 200 but today its different, it only have a peak of price at sub $800 but now it seems stable @ $870 - $900+

[Gleb Gamow]

And we're still holding strong, how's that grab you?  China has a lot of influence on bitcoin (I think), but this is a global thing.  There's only so far that goes.  

I still wonder what the real numbers are as far as how many users/buyers there are geographically.  That info doesn't seem to be very available.

That info is available and always has been.

http://bitcoincharts.com/markets/

Look under the column labeled "Volume". Here's a hint, the two at the top with all the volume, BTC China and OKCoin, are in China.

Here's an image of the current Bitcoin globe.

http://bitcoincharts.com/markets/



Question: Contrived?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Numbers_in_Chinese_culture#Eight

The word for "eight" (八 Pinyin: bā) sounds similar to the word which means "prosper" or "wealth" (發 – often paired with "發財" during Chinese New Years, but is used alone or paired with numerous other "compound words" that have a meaning of luck or success, Pinyin: fā). In regional dialects the words for "eight" and "fortune" are also similar, e.g., Cantonese "baat3" and "faat3". The word is also phonetically similar to the word for a hundred (百), alluding to greater wealth. Note as well, this particular symbol matches the mathematical symbol of infinity. While Chinese does have other words for luck, this full understanding of luck that includes the infinity concept marries into a Chinese understanding of this particular word.

There is also a visual resemblance between two digits, "88", and 囍, the "shuāng xĭ" ("double joy"), a popular decorative design composed of two stylized characters 喜 ("xĭ" meaning "joy" or "happiness").

... ... ..

Similar to the common Western practice of using "9" for price points, it is common to see "8" being used in its place to achieve the same psychological effect. So for example menu prices like $58, $88 are frequently seen.

From the desk of Oh Woe is Me!:

https://www.crunchbase.com/person/star-xu/investments