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Author Topic: Avalon vs Bitmain  (Read 10958 times)
Star.Wars
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January 30, 2017, 12:06:36 AM
 #1

Which is better for you bitcoin mining? What are the advantages of these two machines compared to each other?
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January 30, 2017, 12:48:05 AM
 #2

Which is better for you bitcoin mining? What are the advantages of these two machines compared to each other?

So far the s9 and the r4 break.


the avalon 721 does not break.


 the avalon burns more power


the avalon cost more per th

those points are pretty much it.


So if you have very cheap power  the avalon may work better for you since they have been more reliable

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January 30, 2017, 08:28:16 AM
 #3

you cannot compare S9 efficency vs 721...

just check this..
S9
1400watt/13000Gh/s -->0.10Gh/s
721
1000watt/6000Gh/s --> 0.16Gh/s...

judge for yourself which is the most efficient...

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    [    ]
CryptoTeng
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January 30, 2017, 08:50:15 AM
 #4

If one only looks at efficiency, the S9 is "better". However, looking at the failure rates of Antminer S9's, it is very possible that they break down within the 90-day warranty (if your lucky) or shortly after the warranty period (in which case the loss is greater, logically...=(... ). This is my own experience with Antminers.
I cannot say much about the reliability of the Avalons, but according to what one can see on the forum, people have less problems with them than with Antminers.
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January 31, 2017, 08:43:27 AM
 #5

If one only looks at efficiency, the S9 is "better". However, looking at the failure rates of Antminer S9's, it is very possible that they break down within the 90-day warranty (if your lucky) or shortly after the warranty period (in which case the loss is greater, logically...=(... ). This is my own experience with Antminers.
I cannot say much about the reliability of the Avalons, but according to what one can see on the forum, people have less problems with them than with Antminers.
i never found any report about failure rates of Antminer S9's.
some one have pdf or link about this stats?
ah... i hope if yes, they are not produced from BitMain ;-)

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    [    ]
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January 31, 2017, 02:47:59 PM
 #6

If one only looks at efficiency, the S9 is "better". However, looking at the failure rates of Antminer S9's, it is very possible that they break down within the 90-day warranty (if your lucky) or shortly after the warranty period (in which case the loss is greater, logically...=(... ). This is my own experience with Antminers.
I cannot say much about the reliability of the Avalons, but according to what one can see on the forum, people have less problems with them than with Antminers.
i never found any report about failure rates of Antminer S9's.
some one have pdf or link about this stats?
ah... i hope if yes, they are not produced from BitMain ;-)

No one has done an official study, but the anecdotal evidence compared to previous generations of Antminers seems to point to the fact that the failure rate has jumped considerably. 

I'd like to know if anyone here who has purchased more than 10x S9's or R4's has had the entire order free of problems, or possibly a data centre that hosts 100's of them could chime in on rate of failure.  So far it seems as though everyone I've heard from has had some kind of failures on the S9's or R4's when purchased in larger quantities.

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January 31, 2017, 04:50:13 PM
 #7

stupid question:

Been looking and I see bitmain term used, but wanted to verify that Legit source of the s9's directly is shop.bitmain.com

ex  @   https://shop.bitmain.com/productDetail.htm?pid=00020170129142050821zi69Of760661

is that correct?
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January 31, 2017, 05:13:59 PM
 #8

Yes.

Bitmain - www.bitmain.com

Canaan Creative - www.canaan.io

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January 31, 2017, 08:54:26 PM
 #9

S5 and S7 never failed on me, out of the 15 hashboards of my 5 S9's 7 have failed (for the moment), and outside the warranty period is +/- 200 usd + shipping for repair each board, so you could end up having to pay up to 600 usd on top off the price of the miner. I have a couple of S9's and T9's on the way, let's see if bitmain corrected the problem, at least now they come with 180 days warranty, instead of 90, we will see...
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February 01, 2017, 12:35:06 AM
 #10

So far yes, all my s9's from batch-1 on up have been a tad temperamental vs s5/7's but so far only 2 boards and 3 fans (all exhaust side) have failed out of 10 miners. But... I'm holding off on trying the T9's until we see some more run time from other folks. That's a 1st for me: Aside from the S1's, USB's, router, and s5+ I've had at least 1 of every batch-1 miner from Bitmain.

Due to the R4 b6 issues (I have one with a card reporting only 8 chips, no pwr good light) and with BTC being up I just pulled the trigger on an Avalon 721 and a controller. Seems like a good time to give the Avalon's a whirl.

Of course already have a Ticket open with Canaan... Receipt shows 2x of each but price is the correct amount + shipping for 1x each...  Grin  Interesting with their 'We'll contact you later with full price, manual payment' approach. I did let them know I will be using BTC.

edit: Within an hour Canaan had corrected the order error and gave confirmed price of BTC0.89. Excellent.

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February 01, 2017, 02:31:13 PM
 #11

This is classic cycle of abuse symptoms.

Delusion - hoping and praying that "next time" (next batch) it will be better, it was just this one time.  Failure rate of 7/15 boards is 46.7%.  
Denial - claiming "a tad temperamental" and "only 2 boards and 3 fans" (failure rates of 6.7% and 15% respectively!)

I'm just going to leave this here...



Guys seriously, we are enabling them to build shittier products by blindly supporting them and assuming we will turn a profit on them.  It is difficult enough (impossible for some!) to ROI on this equipment after taking difficulty and electricity costs into account.  When you start having to account for failures and downtime for repair, you're completely screwed from the beginning even with the longer warranty.  ESPECIALLY if you have to pay for those repairs outside warranty!

IBM 2880W PSU Packages: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=966135 IBM 4K PSU Breakout Boards & Packages: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1308296 
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February 01, 2017, 06:20:55 PM
 #12

This is classic cycle of abuse symptoms.

Delusion - hoping and praying that "next time" (next batch) it will be better, it was just this one time.  Failure rate of 7/15 boards is 46.7%.  
Denial - claiming "a tad temperamental" and "only 2 boards and 3 fans" (failure rates of 6.7% and 15% respectively!)

I'm just going to leave this here...



Guys seriously, we are enabling them to build shittier products by blindly supporting them and assuming we will turn a profit on them.  It is difficult enough (impossible for some!) to ROI on this equipment after taking difficulty and electricity costs into account.  When you start having to account for failures and downtime for repair, you're completely screwed from the beginning even with the longer warranty.  ESPECIALLY if you have to pay for those repairs outside warranty!

I have switched to avalon from now on.

I may run a contest on my two r4's

one is 50 days old all good except 1 board.
other is 13 days old all good except the fan sounds terrible.

The contest would be what breaks next and on which r4?  If you could help with rules and for that matter I may  have the entire community help set up the contest .  While I am sure it may or may not  improve service we may as well have some fun .

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February 01, 2017, 06:27:19 PM
 #13

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Guys seriously, we are enabling them to build shittier products by blindly supporting them and assuming we will turn a profit on them.

I wouldn't call it blindly supporting them -- they were the only game in town. Ever since Bitmains s3's it has been a roll of the dice with increasingly worse odds as to how the miners would hold up. I had several s5 and s7 fans croak so my luck with ones on the s9's is slightly better. Remember, 24x7x365 = 8760 hours of running each year. Ever look at the mfrg stated lifetime of fans? I've seen as short as 5k hours which to me definitely puts them in the 'consumable parts' category... Start running a farm with dozens/hundreds of miners and you better plan on having to replacing fans...

For the industrial equipment I design I spec fans with mbtf >50k hours and gotta say, their cost is around 10x the cost of generic ones. That ain't gonna fly with most miner manufacturers. Even then, I minimize the need for fans via liquid cooling of power modules via cold-plates. It ain't rocket science to do that...

Along that line: I really really wish that any miner maker seriously considers at least offering cold-plate liquid cooled miners for folks who are well past the home mining stage and running real farms over say, 10 miners/10kw and higher. Just state min pressures/flow/max heat load and coolant temp needed then leave it up to the customer to provide a REAL chiller/cooling system vs what Bitmain tried. Eliminates dozens/hundreds/thousands of fans to worry about -- replaced by 1+n large pump(s) 1 large hot-side heat exchanger to be located wherever you want -- and noise is gone. Do remember that as I recall each fan can pull around 50-60w at full speed so that adds up fast vs a 1-2kw for a big pump.

Anywho, now that the Avalons are out and hopefully soon(ish) the BitFury-based gear from Sidehack it is a whole 'nother game.

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February 02, 2017, 01:05:35 AM
 #14

Eliminates dozens/hundreds/thousands of fans to worry about -- replaced by 1+n large pump(s) 1 large hot-side heat exchanger to be located wherever you want -- and noise is gone. Do remember that as I recall each fan can pull around 50-60w at full speed so that adds up fast vs a 1-2kw for a big pump.


I do run through a fair number of fans with my units but I dont see a huge liquid cooling setup to be any better. Leaks can severely damage infrastructure plus if you have a pump go down and lose hundreds of machines hash power vs changing a fan on a unit once every 18 months I just dont see the benefit. Any large mining company will have thousands of fans laying around from old equipment and bulk purchases etc so there really isnt much cost involved.

Stop buying industrial miners, running them at home, and then complaining about the noise.
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February 02, 2017, 01:21:07 AM
 #15

For any large op there will if not *should* be redundant pumps ready to be cycled on. These days, most companies I deal with have at least 2 always running in parallel at 1/2 speed/flow using VFD's. If 1 pump fails the other picks up the full load in 1-2 seconds. Again, think industrial. Central services (in this case plant water for cooling) is just as important as the AC power distribution system is and the service must be treated as such.  if 24x7x365 operation of equipment is required anything less is unacceptable. With any distributed cooling system it is almost childs play to design it for minimal if not zero chance of leaks barring a cut line. At my company we design/build/use industrial lasers. (shameless plug: http://www.synchronlaser.com/  I'm the old fart in purple shirt Smiley )   A leak in the wrong place can take out modules worth well over $10k + the system downtime associated with getting a replacement so I fully understand the point. It's not rocket science, but you DO have to think through the design and do it properly. How Bitmain and others blew it so badly is beyond me...

Quote
changing a fan on a unit once every 18 months I just don't see the benefit.
A fan on A unit every now and then, ja. You've seen pics of some of the farms in asia and the one Yoshi/BitmainWarranty used to run with s4's in CO. Thousands of miners. Within a short time it is not going to be "a fan every now and then'.


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February 02, 2017, 02:52:27 AM
 #16

Don't forget that there's not only cooling on the miner to be concerned with (and the resulting wasted power from high-powered fans dealing with high static pressure loads through them) but also there's heat removal from the facility to be concerned with, and the resulting industrial fans to cycle enough air in and out to remove that heat. Then there's the power density issue, trying to use cold and hot air pathways for thermal management which could be used for more equipment in a liquid cooled environment.  I think from a power savings and efficiency point of view, liquid cooling would make a lot of sense.  As Fuzzy pointed out, circulation pumps and fans for heat exchangers should take considerably less power than the combined wattage used for air cooling and again the wasted space required to deal with this heat effectively.

Now, this would all make sense if you owned a personal mine with your own equipment, but the time required to retrofit miners for a liquid cooling infrastructure wouldn't make sense if you were hosting miners for others on a contract basis.

And Fuzzy, if there was one old fart from around these woods whose brain I would love to pick, you would certainly be one of them!

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February 02, 2017, 03:25:43 AM
 #17

Thanks Cheesy
Best I can offer offhand is link to the 2 articles we released in 2010 that were 1st public release of tech I came up with that makes most of the high power LED lighting possible that you see everywhere. We shattered then current (for the past 30-years!) via sizes possible in ceramic heat spreaders and resulting connection densities resulting in more emitters per LED chip -- along with dramatically containing cost to make said chips. http://www.synchronlaser.com/category/press-release/

Current pet project of mine is again going at least 3x smaller at consumer device mass production speeds. Currently we can do 24.4um dia. with min of 60um pitch at >10 vias/sec and >30/sec if the walls between vias can be thicker. 1st new target is 10um diameter vias on 25um pitch at >50 vias/sec. Size and the uber-thin walls is fairly easy using femto-second pulsed lasers. Speed -- well currently most systems might hit 1 via every 2-3 seconds... I've already bettered that but still have a long way to go before even coming close to desired speeds. Other companies are starting to figure out our now 9-year old (patented) voodoo so gotta keep ahead ya know...

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-For bitcoin to succeed the community must police itself.
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February 02, 2017, 04:54:05 AM
 #18

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Now, this would all make sense if you owned a personal mine with your own equipment, but the time required to retrofit miners for a liquid cooling infrastructure wouldn't make sense if you were hosting miners for others on a contract basis.

Very true, which I why I wish miner makers would give us a choice: Home Style (fans), or Extra Spicy with cold plates. Once I saw how fast my Ant farm was growing I very soon began hating the fans and local heat produced so had great hopes for the C1 and others that might follow. Bzzzzt....

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-For bitcoin to succeed the community must police itself.
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February 02, 2017, 02:33:03 PM
 #19

This is classic cycle of abuse symptoms.

Delusion - hoping and praying that "next time" (next batch) it will be better, it was just this one time.  Failure rate of 7/15 boards is 46.7%. 
Denial - claiming "a tad temperamental" and "only 2 boards and 3 fans" (failure rates of 6.7% and 15% respectively!)

I'm just going to leave this here...



Guys seriously, we are enabling them to build shittier products by blindly supporting them and assuming we will turn a profit on them.  It is difficult enough (impossible for some!) to ROI on this equipment after taking difficulty and electricity costs into account.  When you start having to account for failures and downtime for repair, you're completely screwed from the beginning even with the longer warranty.  ESPECIALLY if you have to pay for those repairs outside warranty!

My S5's and S7's haven't give me a problem, none, zero, nada, all my problems start with the S9, so yes I assume is not a batch problem but the S9 series problem, I like to believe (hope) that due to the complains, they took the time to fix the problem, I don't know, I'll see when T9 and S9-B20 arrive this week. BTW I AM buying Avalon's soon! if there's no competition Bitmain will keep taking advantage of the customers, and if you have dealt with them for problems with your miners you know exactly what I mean.
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February 02, 2017, 03:42:12 PM
 #20

Which one would you recommend for a home user who is just starting out in mining?

As far as I understand from the comments,

Avalon, better in terms of price and durability
Antminer is better in terms of Hash Rate and electricity consumption
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