Dirty Fiat Money

[yucca]

Fiat may seem stable to you now, as does any snowpack until the avalanche happens, the numbers don't lie:

http://www.usdebtclock.org/

The cold hard truth is that ALL fiat money experiments have ALL failed throughout history.

No they haven't. All non-fiat experiments have "failed" as they are not applied anymore.
Almost no fiat-experiments have failed unless those economies also failed. In fact I'll go out on a limp and say that fiat currency (which frankly includes bitcoins, even if its "deflationary" or "non-inflationary" is dominating the currency use by 99.8%).

I notice you put failed in quotes, rightly so because no non fiat systems have failed, they have been replaced by fiat systems which will all inevitably fail.

You clearly do not know what "fiat" means, either that or you're trolling (maybe that is why you wrote limp?)

Check out wiki, first line is:

Fiat money is money that derives its value from government regulation or law

Bitcoin derives its value from its own merits as perceived by people, nothing more, the value is NOT dictated by a governing body, it is truly in a free market, as chaotic as that may be during these early days.

[yucca]

Why are you on a bitcoin forum if you would rather have your money value controlled by a few pigs with their hands in everyone's pockets? Let me remind you that the point of bitcoin is not as an investment or even a store of wealth. It is a currency created to avoid unfair and wrongful capital control.

I joined here because I was doing research for a possible university paper that now might go into an other direction than bitcoins.
I'm generally interested in bitcoins, why are you bothered by dissenting opinion?

Every post I've made on this issue highlights and is more or less supportive of the concept you mention above as an idea.
It is the concept of using the coins as an investment that I am negative to. How come you aren't if as you say the point of the coins was to be used as fluid currency?

A university paper lol, and you don't know what fiat means, give me a break!

[Bitmeat]

I think BluesBrother is my favorite poster here. Common sense is hard to come by in these crazy unstable times both in BTC and outside of it. What up bear buddy!

Basically all investments are shite at the moment. Panic commodities (Gold, Silver, BTC) bounce around like crazy mofos, bonds of all type pay around the same as inflation, banks basically just bend you over and have their way with you if you keep it in savings. My money's mainly in index based stock and real estate equities all over the world, with a very small part in precious metal based equities, which I regret daily. At least my excess money is contributing to the economies, and surely they cant all crash at once! If they do, you'll want ammo, not Gold or bitcoins.

[yucca]

You have state pension/private pension investments into the actual economy.
Or you have a social security system in setup in which a new generation takes care of the old.
It can even be into state papers that barely pay an interest above inflation but are thus extremely safe.

Are you alluding to bonds here? Good gracious, do you seriously think bonds are safe? Already that house of cards is fragile, China owns ~1.6 trillion US$ bonds. If China were to put those on the market in one day, it would all be over, CRASH, down the cardhouse would come.

I asked a learned ecenomist about this predicament and he said "Yes but China can't sell them because that would be an act of war!".

[BluesBrother]

Fiat currency is currency based on nothing of intrinsic value. Such as not being backed by a precious metal or a deed to something.
I don't care about what Wikipedia says in this regard and either way it is clearly a discussion of semantics.  
I love how you do not even read your own article...Seriously this forum is filled with quite many fools which is sad for such a complex and interesting new idea.

"money without intrinsic value.[9][10]"
I don't know, one of those links to Yale and the other to the guy running Harvards Economic department.

Maybe you don't consider those universities? Homeschooling is the best university!


I am really trying to hard to be polite here but this is absurd. DO not throw stones in a glass house.

[jbord39]

Why are you on a bitcoin forum if you would rather have your money value controlled by a few pigs with their hands in everyone's pockets? Let me remind you that the point of bitcoin is not as an investment or even a store of wealth. It is a currency created to avoid unfair and wrongful capital control.

I agree completely.  The problem is that right now, bitcoin is a currency controlled by a few pigs with their hands in everyone's pockets.  I have seen on the market some pretty intense manipulation with people throwing around huge amounts of BTC.  Not to mention microtrades nonstop from bots.

[BluesBrother]

I think BluesBrother is my favorite poster here. Common sense is hard to come by in these crazy unstable times both in BTC and outside of it. What up bear buddy!

Basically all investments are shite at the moment. Panic commodities (Gold, Silver, BTC) bounce around like crazy mofos, bonds of all type pay around the same as inflation, banks basically just bend you over and have their way with you if you keep it in savings. My money's mainly in index based stock and real estate equities all over the world, with a very small part in precious metal based equities, which I regret daily. At least my excess money is contributing to the economies, and surely they cant all crash at once! If they do, you'll want ammo, not Gold or bitcoins.

Well put. Generally owning land is among the best counters so is owning direct production of basic goods. But if it all collapses you probably want ammo

[BluesBrother]

I'm just confused by your supposed support of an uncontrolled current when you so blatantly support broken fiat spending?

I'm not against investing in btc because it's part of how a currency works. You have money in your bank account don't you? If you say yes, then you can't possibly say holding bitcoins is bad. The increase in value is only a side effect of increased adoption and market presence. I guess my point is that investments and holding are an essential part of a working currency because they show support and build a user base of willing users.

Hehe I do not have money in a bank account as an investment buddy. I have a bank account to be able to buy stuff such as investments.

[Mike Christ]

Well, if you wanna get technical, paper money is incredibly filthy.

[Elwar]

I joined here because I was doing research for a possible university paper that now might go into an other direction than bitcoins.

If it is for a university paper you will do well to bash the hell out of Bitcoin and highlight things such as "its creator is an unknown person!" and "a depreciating currency is bound to fail because nobody will spend".

You are well on your way with your response that old people should be taken care of by the state. Being a university paper I would also expand that to include minorities and the poor and lower middle class.

Here are some buzz words:
Keynes
ponzi scheme
bubble
unregulated


A+ for sure.

(I used to write outlandishly liberal papers for high grades to get through college myself, gotta look out for number 1)

[BluesBrother]

...or by the family, or by their investments, or by charity.
Not by hoarding currency


I have used some of those words in my text here but unregulated isn't really true. Bitcoins is the most tightly regulated currency in the world It is mathematically regulated which frankly is key to its success. Who the heck would use a currency which is completely unregulated?

In fact part of the failure of the US Fed and some other modern central banks is their de-regulation. They are no longer controlled by set standards or by the democratic process but by a pseudo-private, quasi-secluded council which is "independent" from government policy.

[BluesBrother]

Well, if you wanna get technical, paper money is incredibly filthy.

Tru tru.

[Elwar]

...or by the family, or by their investments, or by charity.
Not by hoarding currency


I have used some of those words in my text here but unregulated isn't really true. Bitcoins is the most tightly regulated currency in the world It is mathematically regulated which frankly is key to its success. Who the heck would use a currency which is completely unregulated?

In fact part of the failure of the US Fed and some other modern central banks is their de-regulation. They are no longer controlled by set standards or by the democratic process but by a pseudo-private, quasi-secluded council which is "independent" from government policy.

Ahh...someone who actually understands what the term regulate means.

Your professor would not. In liberal speak, to regulate is to use the government to make something better.

As opposed to during the days when your rifle would be "well regulated" if it was in proper working order and checked to make sure it would shoot if needed. It was that definition they meant when talking of a well regulated militia in the Constitution.

[HappyBitCoinUser]

I joined here because I was doing research for a possible university paper that now might go into an other direction than bitcoins.

If it is for a university paper you will do well to bash the hell out of Bitcoin and highlight things such as "its creator is an unknown person!" and "a depreciating currency is bound to fail because nobody will spend".

You are well on your way with your response that old people should be taken care of by the state. Being a university paper I would also expand that to include minorities and the poor and lower middle class.

Here are some buzz words:
Keynes
ponzi scheme
bubble
unregulated


A+ for sure.

(I used to write outlandishly liberal papers for high grades to get through college myself, gotta look out for number 1)

+1

[Zaih]

DIRTY FIAT PERSON

[BluesBrother]

...or by the family, or by their investments, or by charity.
Not by hoarding currency


I have used some of those words in my text here but unregulated isn't really true. Bitcoins is the most tightly regulated currency in the world It is mathematically regulated which frankly is key to its success. Who the heck would use a currency which is completely unregulated?

In fact part of the failure of the US Fed and some other modern central banks is their de-regulation. They are no longer controlled by set standards or by the democratic process but by a pseudo-private, quasi-secluded council which is "independent" from government policy.

Ahh...someone who actually understands what the term regulate means.

Your professor would not. In liberal speak, to regulate is to use the government to make something better.

As opposed to during the days when your rifle would be "well regulated" if it was in proper working order and checked to make sure it would shoot if needed. It was that definition they meant when talking of a well regulated militia in the Constitution.

What do you know of my professors :p
There is something called self-regulation which is for example what supply and demand is and thus the basis of market economy. Who would dispute this?
The only dispute you can make is that it competely ignores artificial scarcity and labour wealth theory and thus is prone to manipulation but hey that's not disputing its inherit regulatory powahs.
The best way is to bash both sides, then they don't know who you're with!

[yucca]

Fiat currency is currency based on nothing of intrinsic value. Such as not being backed by a precious metal or a deed to something.
I don't care about what Wikipedia says in this regard and either way it is clearly a discussion of semantics.  
I love how you do not even read your own article...Seriously this forum is filled with quite many fools which is sad for such a complex and interesting new idea.

"money without intrinsic value.[9][10]"
I don't know, one of those links to Yale and the other to the guy running Harvards Economic department.

Maybe you don't consider those universities? Homeschooling is the best university!


I am really trying to hard to be polite here but this is absurd. DO not throw stones in a glass house.

Worry not about offending me, My ego is not fragile, If I ever feel I am incorrect in my assertions I change my beliefs and acknowledge the fact that I was wrong or not fully understanding. But I am 100% sure that fiat money is not a scheme beneficial to the majority.

By your argument, gold would also be fiat, (its industrial uses aside). Yet clearly we see central banks expending much effort to collect and store it, you might ask yourself why? if fiat is so good.

Clearly the banking system realises fiat is fragile and they need a safety net for when the shit hits the fan, otherwise please explain why such a barbaric relic as gold is coveted by them, I'm all ears. If their fiat was so good surely they would not care for gold.

Bitcoin is very close to gold, from an information perspective it is superior, not requiring armoured cars to transport en masse.

It is my opinion that Bitcoin does have intrinsic value. It having some very unique and attractive properties.

Are you aware of the national debt of countries using fiat? Do you realise there is NO way to reverse this trend under the fiat model?

Anyway, you are welcome to your opinion.

[yucca]

...or by the family, or by their investments, or by charity.
Not by hoarding currency


I have used some of those words in my text here but unregulated isn't really true. Bitcoins is the most tightly regulated currency in the world It is mathematically regulated which frankly is key to its success. Who the heck would use a currency which is completely unregulated?

In fact part of the failure of the US Fed and some other modern central banks is their de-regulation. They are no longer controlled by set standards or by the democratic process but by a pseudo-private, quasi-secluded council which is "independent" from government policy.

The reason it appears "independent" is because the public face of politics is but a shell game. A thick glass wall against which we may pound our fists when we expect things to be changed or done. Democracy is a hollywood movie illusion portrayed to give us the impression that were not beig shafted quite as hard as we really are.

The truth of the matter is that some families run things regardless of what party is voted in, politics is mere pantomime, if you really think a country changes its macro gameplan depending on the outcome of elections then you truly are naive. You would be wise to follow the money if you wish to analyse current power structures.

[BluesBrother]

Sure you're welcome to your opinion to just take it easy.
Gold has since its market exposure been a worse "investment"/reserve than USD fiat currency until it started rocketing at 2001+.
And I have no idea why it did rocket.

So yeah gold has an intrinsic value as a precious metal but its value is way over that by now.


Well if you don't want them to run the show stop voting for them, get involved and vote your dad up the party machine.
Heck start a democratic or republican club that pledges to support the candidate with least donations! Just for the fun of it

[yucca]

Sure you're welcome to your opinion to just take it easy.
Gold has since its market exposure been a worse "investment"/reserve than USD fiat currency until it started rocketing at 2001+.
And I have no idea why it did rocket.

So yeah gold has an intrinsic value as a precious metal but its value is way over that by now.


Well if you don't want them to run the show stop voting for them, get involved and vote your dad up the party machine.
Heck start a democratic or republican club that pledges to support the candidate with least donations! Just for the fun of it

What is your opinion as to why central banks hold gold, you refuse to answer that, I suspect you can't without destabilising your premise.