Bitcoin Forum
June 21, 2024, 05:41:30 PM *
News: Latest Bitcoin Core release: 27.0 [Torrent]
 
   Home   Help Search Login Register More  
Poll
Question: What happens first:
New ATH - 43 (69.4%)
<$60,000 - 19 (30.6%)
Total Voters: 62

Pages: « 1 ... 27144 27145 27146 27147 27148 27149 27150 27151 27152 27153 27154 27155 27156 27157 27158 27159 27160 27161 27162 27163 27164 27165 27166 27167 27168 27169 27170 27171 27172 27173 27174 27175 27176 27177 27178 27179 27180 27181 27182 27183 27184 27185 27186 27187 27188 27189 27190 27191 27192 27193 [27194] 27195 27196 27197 27198 27199 27200 27201 27202 27203 27204 27205 27206 27207 27208 27209 27210 27211 27212 27213 27214 27215 27216 27217 27218 27219 27220 27221 27222 27223 27224 27225 27226 27227 27228 27229 27230 27231 27232 27233 27234 27235 27236 27237 27238 27239 27240 27241 27242 27243 27244 ... 33468 »
  Print  
Author Topic: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion  (Read 26404366 times)
This is a self-moderated topic. If you do not want to be moderated by the person who started this topic, create a new topic. (174 posts by 3 users with 9 merit deleted.)
nullius
Copper Member
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 630
Merit: 2610


If you don’t do PGP, you don’t do crypto!


View Profile WWW
October 03, 2020, 03:19:03 PM


According to Godwin himself it is okay to make appropriate Hitler comparisons and that it should not end the discussion.

So are you saying that the Hitler reference was correct or incorrect?

The only one whom I seemed to be comparing to Hitler was myself.  You know—the Jewish Chinese Nazi, who is just running a Sun Tzu psy-op to keep marcus confused.  Zing.

What with this being the Internet, I had thought to explain pre-emptively that Godwin’s Law does not mechanistically apply to all historical comparisons or analogies involving Hitler.  Then, I decided that it would be a waste of words:  Surely, people would be more intelligent than that...  Welcome to the Internet.

No, I was not comparing Hitler and the SA to nutildah, Antifa, or anybody whom I dislike.  If that is what you read into it, then that’s on you.

To waste time and text explaining the obvious:  My point was that if, hypothetically, somebody were to use the Sturmabteilung name and symbol, then yes, that obviously would have some relevance to Adolf Hitler.  Neither nutildah nor anybody else would claim that it has nothing to do with Hitler, on the absurd grounds that:

The original NSDAP, including the SA, has been defunct since 1945; and “not many people... identify themselves as [National-Socialists] anymore”.
...the original Antifa... have technically been defunct since 1933... Not many people in the US or anywhere for that matter identify themselves as communists anymore, or even socialists.

Got it now?  Or do I need to write ten more pages explaining an argument that was intended to be concise?



As a relatively minor point that I should mention because it’s quoted above, nutildah’s statement that the original Antifa has been “defunct since 1933” is factually incorrect.  (And that was not the only thing wrong with his post...)  The Antifas functioned as underground/illegal from 1933–45, including amongst Communists imprisoned in labour camps, then lost momentum and faded away in the postwar era of the DDR.  Overt Communists gravitated toward the East, of course; and there is not much room for a street-level gang of Communist thugs in a country openly ruled by a government gang of Communist thugs!



By the way, does anyone here have New York Times paywall access?  If so, here are some links that I bookmarked once upon a time, when this stuff was not paywalled.  It was careless of me not to save local copies.
https://www.nytimes.com/1959/03/08/archives/now-castro-faces-the-harder-fight-his-revolution-against-batista.html
https://www.nytimes.com/1959/04/19/archives/castro-hails-newsmen-gives-medals-to-americans-who-interviewed-him.html

It is not about Antifa, but rather, an exemplar of the whitewash of Communists.  (I thought to mention that before, but decided instead to reach back to Walter Duranty.)  But a more accurate metaphor would be the Fair Play for Cuba Committees.

In 1959, nutildah would have jeered at me and traduced my intelligence for my claim that Fidel Castro is a Communist.  That was a wild accusation only believed by “right-wing extremists” with a “conspiratorial theory of history”, who “see a Red under every bed”!  (Until Castro himself came out and proudly announced that he had always been a Communist.)

Now, it is just too bizarre for nutildah to claim that an organization which today overtly uses a Communist name, a Communist symbol, substantively Communist ideology, and Communist tactics, with the same old Communist purpose of inciting riots and cancelling free speech with their fists (as Antifa’s predecessor KDP/SDP gangs did throughout the 1920s—to anybody who didn’t have an SA), has nothing to do with Communism.



Sure is a long-winded, roundabout way of admitting that you don't have the slightest fucking clue of what you're talking about.

No, that is a terse way of brushing you off as you deserve.  Though I should thank you for demonstrating the level of your dishonesty:

  • If I spend my time and effort writing a cogent exposition of my thesis, you insult it as too long; and you proudly profess not to read it.  E.g.:

    I'm ignoring you in general because you take too many words to say too little.
  • If I mostly ignore your nonsense, and concisely dismiss it with four sentences plus one graphic (“long-winded”?) to make a baseline demonstration that it is nonsense, then you accuse me of “[not having] the slightest fucking clue what [I’m] talking about”.  And with a hypocrisy that would be astounding if it were not typical of a certain type, you thereby dodge my point—with a substance-free statement that is somehow simultaneously advanced from a position of conceited ignorance, and loaded with sneering derision.  Per your usual standard.

I am not inclined to engage you in an extended discourse on history and political theory, for the same reason that I have never delivered a lecture on geophysics to Flat Earthers.  But since you are so transparently using propaganda shill tactics that should make hv_ envious of your twistiness, I must ask:  Why are you deadset determined to whitewash Antifa?

It’s odd that an historical observation I tossed off-the-cuff, just because I was examining it again whilst working on something else (as I noted) and I thought it would be of interest to others here, has attracted such opprobrium from someone who claims to be “ignoring [me] in general”.  #triggered
kurious
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 2590
Merit: 1643



View Profile
October 03, 2020, 03:28:36 PM


According to Godwin himself it is okay to make appropriate Hitler comparisons and that it should not end the discussion.

So are you saying that the Hitler reference was correct or incorrect?


Neither.  Godwin was probably only semi-serious, but he stated that if any thread argument went on long enough the probability that Hitler would get mentioned was close to 1.  I know he's since clarified it shouldn't necessarily end an argument.

I was actually suggesting to nutildah that arguing with nullius was relatively pointless. 
JimboToronto
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 4046
Merit: 4603


You're never too old to think young.


View Profile
October 03, 2020, 04:08:32 PM
Merited by 600watt (1)

Good morning Bitcoinland.

Leveled out after the dip a couple of days ago... currently $10563USD/$14060CAD (Bitcoinaverage).

Time to move up. Go Bitcoin go.


I think Godwin's Law should be updated to include "communist" along with the Nazis.

Its use is a sure sign a conversation is deteriorating.

"Terrorist" also comes close.
nullius
Copper Member
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 630
Merit: 2610


If you don’t do PGP, you don’t do crypto!


View Profile WWW
October 03, 2020, 04:18:11 PM
Last edit: October 03, 2020, 04:58:55 PM by nullius

I think Godwin's Law should be updated to include "communist" along with the Nazis.

Its use is a sure sign a conversation is deteriorating.

Well, what am I supposed to call it when somebody claims that an organization which today overtly uses a Communist name, a Communist symbol, substantively Communist ideology, and Communist tactics, with the same old Communist purpose, has nothing to do with Communism?

The point of my Hitler/SA thought experiment was to demonstrate that nutildah’s argument would meet unanimous scorn (plus, I might add, accusations of covert sympathies), if it were applied to people who were overtly labelling themselves with NSDAP symbolism.



Godwin was probably only semi-serious, but he stated that if any thread argument went on long enough the probability that Hitler would get mentioned was close to 1.

In the overall context of discussing a self-styled “Antifascist” organization founded in Germany in 1932, any mention whatsoever of Hitler must be nothing more than the convergence of random probabilities involving unintelligent hotheads arguing on the Internet.

Sure, that makes sense.



I must surely not be the first to propose Meta-Godwin’s Law:  On the Internet, any mention whatsoever of Hitler will trigger a blind invocation of Godwin’s Law—whether or not the mention of Hitler is reasonable—and whether or not the person mentioning Hitler is comparing his opponent to Hitler, which is actually what Godwin was talking about.

https://www.wired.com/1994/10/godwin-if-2/
Quote from: Mike Godwin (1994)
The Nazi-comparison meme, I'd decided, had gotten out of hand - in countless Usenet newsgroups, in many conferences on the Well, and on every BBS that I frequented, the labeling of posters or their ideas as "similar to the Nazis" or "Hitler-like" was a recurrent and often predictable event. It was the kind of thing that made you wonder how debates had ever occurred without having that handy rhetorical hammer.

[...]

I developed Godwin's Law of Nazi Analogies: As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one.

I seeded Godwin's Law in any newsgroup or topic where I saw a gratuitous Nazi reference.

Only the braindead, who jerk their knees by reflex, could have imagined that I was comparing nutildah or Antifa to Nazis.  They are Communists!

I know he's since clarified it shouldn't necessarily end an argument.
BobLawblaw
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1830
Merit: 5565


Neighborhood Shenanigans Dispenser


View Profile
October 03, 2020, 04:56:22 PM

Today is going to be a crazy day.

https://twitter.com/BXRekt/status/1312435824726745088
Karartma1
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 2310
Merit: 1422



View Profile
October 03, 2020, 04:59:42 PM
Merited by JayJuanGee (1)

On the Bitmex drama, my thoughts.
Some bitcoin companies are like lab rats: they have been left alone to experiment things that one day will become part of the new FINancialTECHnology world. Take Bitmex: bringing futures to the next level right? or finex or any other. Then they come and tell you, hey boy, this is our territory, how do you dare?
And then they publicly admit that "Digital assets hold great promise for our derivatives market and for our economy". Yeah, right?

Thumbs up to 600watt, somac. for https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=178336.msg55302340#msg55302340
Although, IMO, institutions will find a way to get into Bitcoin without an ETF. We've seen however, that in the last months despite the huge purchases, the price didn't move as much as it should. The only logical explanation is of course the fraudulent shorting using Mex and other not well regulated exchanges. There is also a non logical explanation. As we are normal people here, carefuly thinking about every detail, we tend to forget that there are people who are not like us. Take for example Las Vegas - how many addicted people are in the casinos losing all the cash they bring in their pockets! The same is with the addicted daily traders, who can't be called manipulators, but like vicious brainless piranhas eat the price down until their stash is gone in an endless stop loss chase. The removal of Mex shorters will tip the balance against the piranhas and in favour of the natural growth. So I applaud the CFTC action and hopefully it will shut down Mex and put their owners and other money launderers in jail, where they belong!
I don't necessarily agree even though it looks like my post allowed you to get a merit boost (and I am overall surprised by those who merited you the most). Grin I will keep my position and see how all this will unfold. I am more conscious than ever that only dexes, layer2, coinjoins, LN and such could allow us a bitcoin true experience.
If what you wrote will prevail, I will probably start to abandon the ship. I don't applaud the CFTC
But we are friends anyway Wink

Yes, there will be dips.
Yes, there will be peaks.
Yes, there will be pumps.
Yes, there will be dumps.

Just Zoom OutTM, chill, and have a beer!

If you're scared about a dip, you need some HoDL training...

Don't give them your coins.

A rusty nut won't budge, and that's about the only good quality of a rusty nut.

HoDL.

Sure man, I am like you on this. But, what I am seeing coming from the regulators is making me thinking (just have a look at V8's post up here). Maybe I am a bit naive but I don't want to become rich at the expense of my freedom, if you get what I mean.  Roll Eyes
I know I should elaborate more but I am confused.

I hear you man, I'm concerned too, that we'll end up filthy rich, but unable to enjoy our riches... No joke.
600watt
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 2338
Merit: 2106



View Profile
October 03, 2020, 05:17:14 PM
Merited by Biodom (1)

250 btc buy wall on stamp @10550

sorry for off-topic
Last of the V8s
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1652
Merit: 4392


Be a bank


View Profile
October 03, 2020, 05:29:53 PM
Merited by JayJuanGee (1), 600watt (1)


https://bitcointencommandments.com/
Toxic2040
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1792
Merit: 4141



View Profile
October 03, 2020, 05:46:19 PM

250 btc buy wall on stamp @10550

sorry for off-topic




------

pierced resistance into the cloud

#dyor
1h


hard over and shake out some sail mister..time to give her her legs and run downwind of the storm
4h

#stronghands
Last of the V8s
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1652
Merit: 4392


Be a bank


View Profile
October 03, 2020, 05:49:12 PM

JayJuanGee
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 3752
Merit: 10424


Self-Custody is a right. Say no to"Non-custodial"


View Profile
October 03, 2020, 05:55:46 PM
Last edit: October 03, 2020, 06:05:55 PM by JayJuanGee

On the Bitmex drama, my thoughts.
Some bitcoin companies are like lab rats: they have been left alone to experiment things that one day will become part of the new FINancialTECHnology world. Take Bitmex: bringing futures to the next level right? or finex or any other. Then they come and tell you, hey boy, this is our territory, how do you dare?
And then they publicly admit that "Digital assets hold great promise for our derivatives market and for our economy". Yeah, right?

Thumbs up to 600watt, somac. for https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=178336.msg55302340#msg55302340
Although, IMO, institutions will find a way to get into Bitcoin without an ETF. We've seen however, that in the last months despite the huge purchases, the price didn't move as much as it should. The only logical explanation is of course the fraudulent shorting using Mex and other not well regulated exchanges. There is also a non logical explanation. As we are normal people here, carefuly thinking about every detail, we tend to forget that there are people who are not like us. Take for example Las Vegas - how many addicted people are in the casinos losing all the cash they bring in their pockets! The same is with the addicted daily traders, who can't be called manipulators, but like vicious brainless piranhas eat the price down until their stash is gone in an endless stop loss chase. The removal of Mex shorters will tip the balance against the piranhas and in favour of the natural growth. So I applaud the CFTC action and hopefully it will shut down Mex and put their owners and other money launderers in jail, where they belong!
I don't necessarily agree even though it looks like my post allowed you to get a merit boost (and I am overall surprised by those who merited you the most). Grin I will keep my position and see how all this will unfold. I am more conscious than ever that only dexes, layer2, coinjoins, LN and such could allow us a bitcoin true experience.
If what you wrote will prevail, I will probably start to abandon the ship. I don't applaud the CFTC
But we are friends anyway Wink

Yes, there will be dips.
Yes, there will be peaks.
Yes, there will be pumps.
Yes, there will be dumps.

Just Zoom OutTM, chill, and have a beer!

If you're scared about a dip, you need some HoDL training...

Don't give them your coins.

A rusty nut won't budge, and that's about the only good quality of a rusty nut.

HoDL.

Sure man, I am like you on this. But, what I am seeing coming from the regulators is making me thinking (just have a look at V8's post up here). Maybe I am a bit naive but I don't want to become rich at the expense of my freedom, if you get what I mean.  Roll Eyes
I know I should elaborate more but I am confused.

I hear you man, I'm concerned too, that we'll end up filthy rich, but unable to enjoy our riches... No joke.

Of course, there are several of us who remain concerned about regulatory overreach and also seeming desperate measures taken by various arms of the USA government.

Clearly there is a bully factor in these matters, and even though there may have been some pretty extreme wild, wild west type activities going on with BitMex's allowance of 100x leverage and problems with incentives created around such extreme abilities to leverage so much.

There have been a variety of actors in the bitcoin space who had been targeted in the past by the USA government in a variety of ways, and does not seem right to be cheering for regulatory overreach and/or bullying.

Furthermore, criminal charges are way the fuck more extreme than civil charges, so we will surely need to see how some of this plays out - especially if we really do not know a lot of the details, and surely it is in the interest of a variety of bitcoiners that Bitmex is able to put up some decent fights.. just like Bitfinex and Tether have been able to do... at least, so far.

I am glad that Bitmex coins had not been seized, and I am glad that mostly account holders are able to get their coins off the exchange, so far.  They have likely processed around 30% withdrawals of the coins that were in their custody.. and I believe that they had an additional mass exodus of coins from their custody during the mid-March liquidation event, and surely some account holders had gambled or lost BIG during some of the March situation, and maybe even Bitmex had lost some credibility from how their exchange appeared to be being used during that situation, too.

By the way Karartma1, I doubt that this particular Bitmex attack situation goes so far as warranting the exiting of a reasonable bitcoin position, but of course, you need to decide for yourself what level of allocation you believe is warranted in bitcoin and whether some of the various bullshit and/or heavy-handed attack tactics sufficiently and materially interfere with bitcoin's investment thesis, including your own ideas of what bitcoin's investment theses might be.  

It's not as if many of us longer term HODLers and/or watchers of the bitcoin space did not expect various governments to attack on bitcoin, and of course, they frequently are going to attempt to engage in divide and conquer or even going after smaller potatoes before attacking the BIGGER dogs, and surely, there are attempts to reward the suck ups, too, so we should NOT be expecting that the level of attacks from various governments and/or incumbent financial institutions would not attempt to play favorites or for bitcoin to bring honesty to the various desperate status quo institutional fucks (whether governmental or financial institutions).
Hyperjacked
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1610
Merit: 1119


It's all mathematics...!


View Profile
October 03, 2020, 06:15:34 PM

I’m so bullish on Bitcoin right now I’m speechless 😶
explorer
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 2016
Merit: 1259



View Profile
October 03, 2020, 06:17:48 PM
Merited by jojo69 (1)

I’m so bullish on Bitcoin right now I’m speechless 😶

Use your pictures!
nullius
Copper Member
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 630
Merit: 2610


If you don’t do PGP, you don’t do crypto!


View Profile WWW
October 03, 2020, 06:26:23 PM
Merited by JayJuanGee (1)

I am glad that Bitmex coins had not been seized, and I am glad that mostly account holders are able to get their coins off the exchange, so far.

That is good news.  Whereas I am more worried about such things as this—just for instance:

https://blog.bitmex.com/who-funds-bitcoin-development/

https://blog.bitmex.com/hdr-global-trading-increases-bitcoin-developer-grant-to-us100000/

BitMEX is far from the biggest funder of Bitcoin development; but their support of the effort that makes Bitcoin work on a technical level is nothing to sneeze at, either.  The number of mutually independent parties funding Bitcoin development is also a centralization issue.  One of the good things about Core is that no single party can call the shots just by tugging purse strings; Bitcoin needs to keep it that way.

Most people do not even think about this.  High-quality free and open-source software engineering just appears spontaneously out of thin air, without funding and organization.  (Rather like revolutions, “amorphous movements”, mass-migrations, etc.; the world is such a random place, in which human events just happen without any organization, leadership, or money.)

From what I have seen from the sidelines, BitMEX has also otherwise been on the good side of many Bitcoin issues.  E.g., “Therefore BitMEX will not be able to support SegWit2x.  [...]  BitMEX considers any and all contentious hardfork tokens as altcoins.”  It would be a shame if they were to diminish or disappear, leaving a void to be filled by some of the exchanges who are practically enemies of Bitcoin.

Note:  I have no connection to BitMEX, and no financial interest in the foregoing statement.  My experience with centralized exchanges is pretty much nil; and I don’t know anybody at BitMEX.



250 btc buy wall on stamp @10550

sorry for off-topic


Thanks.  I’ll save that for everybody who ever mentions, among other things, the American reality-TV “election” show—about which I was working on a P&S meta-complaint, when I delved into a minor tangent on Antifa.
Last of the V8s
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1652
Merit: 4392


Be a bank


View Profile
October 03, 2020, 06:33:10 PM
Merited by criptix (1), nullius (1)


https://twitter.com/dysmemic/status/1312309954989023232
JayJuanGee
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 3752
Merit: 10424


Self-Custody is a right. Say no to"Non-custodial"


View Profile
October 03, 2020, 06:39:42 PM

I am glad that Bitmex coins had not been seized, and I am glad that mostly account holders are able to get their coins off the exchange, so far.

That is good news.  Whereas I am more worried about such things as this—just for instance:

https://blog.bitmex.com/who-funds-bitcoin-development/

https://blog.bitmex.com/hdr-global-trading-increases-bitcoin-developer-grant-to-us100000/

BitMEX is far from the biggest funder of Bitcoin development; but their support of the effort that makes Bitcoin work on a technical level is nothing to sneeze at, either.

Most people do not even think about this.  High-quality free and open-source software engineering just appears spontaneously out of thin air, without funding and organization.  (Rather like revolutions, “amorphous movements”, mass-migrations, etc.; the world is such a random place, in which human events just happen without any organization, leadership, or money.)

From what I have seen from the sidelines, BitMEX has also otherwise been on the good side of many Bitcoin issues.  E.g., “Therefore BitMEX will not be able to support SegWit2x.  [...]  BitMEX considers any and all contentious hardfork tokens as altcoins.”  It would be a shame if they were to diminish or disappear, leaving a void to be filled by some of the exchanges who are practically enemies of Bitcoin.

Note:  I have no connection to BitMEX, and no financial interest in the foregoing statement.  My experience with centralized exchanges is pretty much nil; and I don’t know anybody at BitMEX.


Thanks for highlighting that point as well, nullius.

There has been increasing kinds of funding in the bitcoin space towards developers, research and other matters, and of course, bitcoin will NOT be dead (and probably not even meaningfully disabled) if Bitmex funding towards bitcoin development and research ends up drying up. 

I do agree that through the last several years, Bitmex seems to have served as a decent steward of the bitcoin space, and surely it remains a bit irritating that they are being attacked in such a seemingly strenuous way...., whether that is too much, or merely the US government employing seemingly overbearing tools in order to attempt to negotiate from a better seeming position of strength.   

I surely do not claim to know many of the details of the purported egregiousness that the USA govt is proclaiming against bitmex and four of its officials to justify criminal rather than civil charges, and overall through the years, I have considered Bitmex to be greatly on the net positive side of Bitcoin's development.. even though surely some people (even pretty BIG ass players have gotten quite reckt) have been quite fucked in using their exchange when the market has moved against their bets.
Last of the V8s
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1652
Merit: 4392


Be a bank


View Profile
October 03, 2020, 06:56:54 PM


https://twitter.com/RoninNode/status/1312339488774017024
hmm maybe
LFC_Bitcoin
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 3570
Merit: 9801


#1 VIP Crypto Casino


View Profile
October 03, 2020, 07:00:01 PM


wallet.dat backed up on a USB stick, inserted in one’s anus?
serveria.com
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 2282
Merit: 1184


Privacy Servers. Since 2009.


View Profile WWW
October 03, 2020, 07:10:51 PM
Merited by JayJuanGee (1)


Yeah triggering the airport security gate > cavity search > humiliating extraction  Grin
BlackHatCoiner
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1554
Merit: 7585


Protocols over bureaucrats


View Profile
October 03, 2020, 07:12:36 PM

That's the worst way I've ever seen on storing your private keys. I would prefer memorising the 256 bits' order.
Pages: « 1 ... 27144 27145 27146 27147 27148 27149 27150 27151 27152 27153 27154 27155 27156 27157 27158 27159 27160 27161 27162 27163 27164 27165 27166 27167 27168 27169 27170 27171 27172 27173 27174 27175 27176 27177 27178 27179 27180 27181 27182 27183 27184 27185 27186 27187 27188 27189 27190 27191 27192 27193 [27194] 27195 27196 27197 27198 27199 27200 27201 27202 27203 27204 27205 27206 27207 27208 27209 27210 27211 27212 27213 27214 27215 27216 27217 27218 27219 27220 27221 27222 27223 27224 27225 27226 27227 27228 27229 27230 27231 27232 27233 27234 27235 27236 27237 27238 27239 27240 27241 27242 27243 27244 ... 33468 »
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.19 | SMF © 2006-2009, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!