Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion

[lucas.sev]

Bought all back in at $112......wondering if I made a mistake.  Obviously missed the bottom, but was that just a false bottom?

You bought at the top. I can relate, made this shitty move a few times too many.

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[Abandon]

This is appearing to be somewhat like a reverse head and shoulder. I expect it to retrace to $120 soon.

[Rampion]

Do I have to remind you guys that keeping coins and not spending them means you're killing it as a currency?

Yes, that is true in Paul Krugman's socialist keynesian wet dream.

In the real world we call it "using buzzwords (like 'hoarders') to demonize responsible saving."

Nobody ever has any legit data to back up their assumption that there is this huge number of people who hoard BTCs and never spend them. Although if you look at tx volume, you'd easily see that the ratio of spent coins to hoarded coins is much higher than with the USD OR precious metals. The second we say "Oh, but I do spend my coins" the 'anti-hoarder' crowd backs off - "Oh, well that's ok, you're a spender, you're benefiting the currency."
So what is the magical ratio of spend to saved coins you must reach before being considered a hoarder, and how can we empirically justify this ratio? No one has ever answered me this question, and I ask it every single time someone demonizes saving by implying that it "kills bitcoin."

People hoarded gold and silver and they were used as currencies for millenia. Thousands of years. Go read Fekete's papers on monetary theory you will shit your pants when you read what he has to say about hoarding  

I use a toilet for that... u know... toilet!!!!!!

I know pretty well I stirred a bitbee nest by saying that but don't forget.
Greed will destroy every dream no matter how beautifull it is  , and currently bitcoin is driven by greed.

Unlike many others on forum , I haven't put all my hopes of a wealthy future in bitcoins succes, and thus I can keep a cooler head than most people here.

Yeah. Greed is a problem. Money and greed go together. Those are deep problems. Even deeper than Bitcoin. BTC is not designed to solve all the problems. But it solves very real, day-by-day problems,and even if it's not definitive, it's a step towards freedom.

[Rampion]

Dude, stop the Keynesian "deflationary currency leads to hoarding and hoarding is bad"-crap. People buy things, because they both want and need things. You cannot delay a purchase forever (post-mortem anyone?) so the fact that the underlying currency gains in value isn't going to stop economic traffic in the least *.

*Although in the beginning people might need to get used to this, but it will be temporary. People will need to get used that merely holding currency isn't voluntarily paying more taxes and that saving can actually be a good thing as opposed to the credit hungry society the west is these days. I don't have any debt, but I can assure you I'm a vast minority ....

Keynesians are like cockroaches

Let me explain why I feel hoarding is bad , and not because of this keynesian b*** which i don't give a crap about.

Worst case scenario
We have people accumulating bitcoins , people not using bitcoins , price skyrocketing because bitcoin is such a great idea, and there are fewer and fewer bitcoins (people are stashing them)  until , some moroon realizes

Why the f*** is a bitcoin so pricey when you can't do anything with it.

You know what happens next. And this won't be a bubble burst.It's going a total bearpocalypse.

BTC is not about fast freeish transactions. It's about preserving and being able to freely transfer value, in a 100% decentralized and trust-free scenario. It enables you to completely control your wealth. I don't know if you understand the implications of this. And "saving" value is not necessarily inferior to "burning" value consuming just because money tends to be more valuable *NOW* than *TORROW*.

And, if the above alone was not enough, Bitcoin is also a way to scream *fuck off* at the face of a bunch of nasty gusty.

[wachtwoord]

Dude, stop the Keynesian "deflationary currency leads to hoarding and hoarding is bad"-crap. People buy things, because they both want and need things. You cannot delay a purchase forever (post-mortem anyone?) so the fact that the underlying currency gains in value isn't going to stop economic traffic in the least *.

*Although in the beginning people might need to get used to this, but it will be temporary. People will need to get used that merely holding currency isn't voluntarily paying more taxes and that saving can actually be a good thing as opposed to the credit hungry society the west is these days. I don't have any debt, but I can assure you I'm a vast minority ....

Keynesians are like cockroaches

Let me explain why I feel hoarding is bad , and not because of this keynesian b*** which i don't give a crap about.

Worst case scenario
We have people accumulating bitcoins , people not using bitcoins , price skyrocketing because bitcoin is such a great idea, and there are fewer and fewer bitcoins (people are stashing them)  until , some moroon realizes

Why the f*** is a bitcoin so pricey when you can't do anything with it.

You know what happens next. And this won't be a bubble burst.It's going a total bearpocalypse.

To answer you I'll quote myself:

...  People buy things, because they both want and need things. You cannot delay a purchase forever (post-mortem anyone?) so the fact that the underlying currency gains in value isn't going to stop economic traffic in the least *.
...

Fiat serves no purpose as an investment vehicle, so all fiat you have you'll want to spend or invest in something that appreciates in value. With a non-inflationary (or even deflationary) currency, the currency can serve multiple purposes! Use for purchasing stuff and appreciation in purchasing power (or conservation in purchasing power depending on how you look at things). So, if you use Bitcoin exclusively you'll spend the money that you intend to spend and save the money that you intend to spend. It's just that it'll both be in the same "holding"/"currency".

The fact that a something can serve both purposes at once seems to confuse people.

[Coinseeker]

If you want to make a river, pour water on the mountain top.

This is only one of many reasons I choose Ripple as a better world currency alternative.  There are vastly more XRP's.  So many in fact, it could be literally hundreds of year, if ever, that you would need to calculate beyond the 3rd decimal.  It's nearly impossible to do this with Bitcoin because there are only 11 million of them and at most 21 million.  And that doesn't account for how many have been or will be lost forever.  I know what you'll say, "Bitcoin can be broken down to 8 decimal places."  What the vast majority of people say is, "Who cares, what a pain in the arse to deal with .00239484 of something."  And I agree.

If Bitcoin does survive, it will be as a store of value and nothing more.  But that IS a big deal in and of itself. It can not be a world currency because it can not do micro transactions.  There's no getting around that.  For Bitcoin to make that possible would undermine the security of the blockchain. (From my limited understanding) Some of these discussions, like this one, are actually filled with some sensible discourse on both sides, but in keeping with that tradition, you have to accept logic at some point.  What you want Bitcoin to be and what it realistically can be, are often 2 completely different things.

Bitcoin will never be a world currency.  Some other crypto very well may be and that could be a good thing, minus the ideological bible thumping of course.     But it's just not going to be a world currency.  No way, no how.  All that said, hoard away.  That's what it's best for.  I agree with some sentiments in, "Save" not be a slave to credit.  I couldn't agree more.  

Bottomline:  Hoarding Bitcoin does not undermine it as a world currency, because it will never be a world currency.  It is a store of value, use it as such.

  

[Frozenlock]

Guys, you realize there's every other subforums for this kind of discussion, right?

[Coinseeker]

Guys, you realize there's every other subforums for this kind of discussion, right?

[ChartBuddy]

[Rampion]

Guys, you realize there's every other subforums for this kind of discussion, right?

Your gifs are funny, but your reasoning is so retarded that I'm forced to think you're trolling.

Let me ask you a very simple question: don't you realize that debt money is bad money?

You already have LOTS of it. You already have a "global currency": debt. I really don't know what you're babbling about when you start with your "Ripple superior to BTC" song.

Honestly, are you serious?

[Rampion]

Guys, you realize there's every other subforums for this kind of discussion, right?

Come on baby, now let us know if the price will go UP, or DOWN.

Let me guess.... Down?

[wachtwoord]

your reasoning is so retarded that I'm forced to think you're trolling.

+1
How hard is it to get Bitcoins are in infinitely divisible ....

[Jozzaboy]

If you want to make a river, pour water on the mountain top.

This is only one of many reasons I choose Ripple as a better world currency alternative.  There are vastly more XRP's.  So many in fact, it could be literally hundreds of year, if ever, that you would need to calculate beyond the 3rd decimal.  It's nearly impossible to do this with Bitcoin because there are only 11 million of them and at most 21 million.  And that doesn't account for how many have been or will be lost forever.  I know what you'll say, "Bitcoin can be broken down to 8 decimal places."  What the vast majority of people say is, "Who cares, what a pain in the arse to deal with .00239484 of something."  And I agree.

If Bitcoin does survive, it will be as a store of value and nothing more.  But that IS a big deal in and of itself. It can not be a world currency because it can not do micro transactions.  There's no getting around that.  For Bitcoin to make that possible would undermine the security of the blockchain. (From my limited understanding) Some of these discussions, like this one, are actually filled with some sensible discourse on both sides, but in keeping with that tradition, you have to accept logic at some point.  What you want Bitcoin to be and what it realistically can be, are often 2 completely different things.

Bitcoin will never be a world currency.  Some other crypto very well may be and that could be a good thing, minus the ideological bible thumping of course.     But it's just not going to be a world currency.  No way, no how.  All that said, hoard away.  That's what it's best for.  I agree with some sentiments in, "Save" not be a slave to credit.  I couldn't agree more.  

Bottomline:  Hoarding Bitcoin does not undermine it as a world currency, because it will never be a world currency.  It is a store of value, use it as such.

  

Eh, you could sell Bitcoins as Satoshi. Otherwise agreed that Bitcoin is a store of value and an incredible speculative tool.

[TheKoziTwo]

If you want to make a river, pour water on the mountain top.

This is only one of many reasons I choose Ripple as a better world currency alternative.  There are vastly more XRP's.  So many in fact, it could be literally hundreds of year, if ever, that you would need to calculate beyond the 3rd decimal.  It's nearly impossible to do this with Bitcoin because there are only 11 million of them and at most 21 million.  And that doesn't account for how many have been or will be lost forever.  I know what you'll say, "Bitcoin can be broken down to 8 decimal places."  What the vast majority of people say is, "Who cares, what a pain in the arse to deal with .00239484 of something."  And I agree.

Wow... just wow dude.... if that really is a problem why don't we just multiply all bitcoins in existence with 1000 ? Nobody loses and you get that vastly more bitcoins you're looking for

But in that case, mBTC and later uBTC or satoshi will basically do the same thing, in solving this "problem".

[CurbsideProphet]

If you want to make a river, pour water on the mountain top.

This is only one of many reasons I choose Ripple as a better world currency alternative.  There are vastly more XRP's.  So many in fact, it could be literally hundreds of year, if ever, that you would need to calculate beyond the 3rd decimal.  It's nearly impossible to do this with Bitcoin because there are only 11 million of them and at most 21 million.  And that doesn't account for how many have been or will be lost forever.  I know what you'll say, "Bitcoin can be broken down to 8 decimal places."  What the vast majority of people say is, "Who cares, what a pain in the arse to deal with .00239484 of something."  And I agree.

It's very easy to re-program software to move the decimal and denominate in mBTC or any other.  Humans don't do well with small fractions but computers have no problem with it.  This is one of the easiest things to fix.

[Coinseeker]

Guys, you realize there's every other subforums for this kind of discussion, right?

Your gifs are funny, but your reasoning is so retarded that I'm forced to think you're trolling.

Let me ask you a very simple question: don't you realize that debt money is bad money?

You already have LOTS of it. You already have a "global currency": debt. I really don't know what you're babbling about when you start with your "Ripple superior to BTC" song.

Honestly, are you serious?

I'm aware you don't know what I'm "babbling" about, as it relates to Ripple, because you don't understand Ripple.  You're prejudiced against anything not Bitcoin, thus remain ignorant to what Ripple really is.  Truly, Ripple is not a Bitcoin competitor or replacement.  It could become that, but that is the choice of the people.  That is not what Ripple is for.  Ripple could actually make Bitcoin more accessible to more people and businesses, without more people or more business actually having to deal directly in Bitcoin.  It's a win, win for Bitcoin.  Sure beats begging businesses to accept Bitcoin in numerous forum threads.  

How your "debt" point is even relevant, I'm still trying to figure that out.

[Coinseeker]

If you want to make a river, pour water on the mountain top.

This is only one of many reasons I choose Ripple as a better world currency alternative.  There are vastly more XRP's.  So many in fact, it could be literally hundreds of year, if ever, that you would need to calculate beyond the 3rd decimal.  It's nearly impossible to do this with Bitcoin because there are only 11 million of them and at most 21 million.  And that doesn't account for how many have been or will be lost forever.  I know what you'll say, "Bitcoin can be broken down to 8 decimal places."  What the vast majority of people say is, "Who cares, what a pain in the arse to deal with .00239484 of something."  And I agree.

Wow... just wow dude.... if that really is a problem why don't we just multiply all bitcoins in existence with 1000 ? Nobody loses and you get that vastly more bitcoins you're looking for

But in that case, mBTC and later uBTC or satoshi will basically do the same thing, in solving this "problem".

No, you're trying to fit a square peg in a round hole.  And honestly, nobody cares.  We didn't ask to have the wheel reinvented, we just said build a better wheel.  

In the end, that's why I choose Ripple as the future.  You choose what you want...but you're all wasting your time trying to sell me on 8 decimal places, satoshis, sushis, whatever.  Who cares.  It's waste of time.  I thought I made that clear. There are better ways to do it.  Bitcoin is not a currency.  That's my view.

[TheKoziTwo]

If you want to make a river, pour water on the mountain top.

This is only one of many reasons I choose Ripple as a better world currency alternative.  There are vastly more XRP's.  So many in fact, it could be literally hundreds of year, if ever, that you would need to calculate beyond the 3rd decimal.  It's nearly impossible to do this with Bitcoin because there are only 11 million of them and at most 21 million.  And that doesn't account for how many have been or will be lost forever.  I know what you'll say, "Bitcoin can be broken down to 8 decimal places."  What the vast majority of people say is, "Who cares, what a pain in the arse to deal with .00239484 of something."  And I agree.

Wow... just wow dude.... if that really is a problem why don't we just multiply all bitcoins in existence with 1000 ? Nobody loses and you get that vastly more bitcoins you're looking for

But in that case, mBTC and later uBTC or satoshi will basically do the same thing, in solving this "problem".

No, you're trying to fit a square peg in a round hole.  And honestly, nobody cares.  We didn't ask to have the wheel reinvented, we just said build a better wheel.  

So moving the decimals a few zero's to the left is "building a better wheel"?

[Rampion]

Guys, you realize there's every other subforums for this kind of discussion, right?

Your gifs are funny, but your reasoning is so retarded that I'm forced to think you're trolling.

Let me ask you a very simple question: don't you realize that debt money is bad money?

You already have LOTS of it. You already have a "global currency": debt. I really don't know what you're babbling about when you start with your "Ripple superior to BTC" song.

Honestly, are you serious?

I'm aware you don't know what I'm "babbling" about, as it relates to Ripple, because you don't understand Ripple.  You're prejudiced against anything not Bitcoin, thus remain ignorant to what Ripple really is.  Truly, Ripple is not a Bitcoin competitor or replacement.  It could become that, but that is the choice of the people.  That is not what Ripple is for.  Ripple could actually make Bitcoin more accessible to more people and businesses, without more people or more business actually having to deal directly in Bitcoin.  It's a win, win for Bitcoin.  Sure beats begging businesses to accept Bitcoin in numerous forum threads.  

How your "debt" point is even relevant, I'm still trying to figure that out.

First, your "100 billion is superior to 21 millions" is ridiculous, as others pointed out.

Secondly, Bitcoin is designed to replace a flawed, centralized system, based on debt money created from thin air. It's a challenge to factual powers.
Ripple is just a distributed layer built on top of this flawed system, and shares all its drawbacks - adding an additional layer of debt-driven negative incentives. Plus, the crypto built inside Ripple is 100% centralized, while its security mechanism (no mining, consensus, no incentives to be a validator) is 100% untested.

And finally, you really do not understand the deep implications of Bitcoin. How it represents a step towards freedom, because it can free you from debt money. You seem not to value that, probably because you cannot understand it. You are too happy to be a slave. Or you are troll. No other options.

[lucas.sev]

bye 110