Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion

[realr0ach]

Can anyone spot the govt plan yet?  Let morons hype craptocurrencies and use that as cover for the banks to pump Ripple.  Next step will be govts banning all anon and pseudo-anon craptocurrency until only permissioned ledgers like Ripple exist then force everyone onto them.  Bitcoin holders will see a WSJ headline sometime stating bitcoin banned and then the price plunges to nothing, OR the bankers will create an MIT chain anchor fork of bitcoin and say you're required to transact on that chain if you want to use it.  Either way, both speculators and people who make believe craptocurrency is a store of value will be forced onto jewish banker controlled chains.

There is absolutely zero retail demand for "Ripple".  No random joes off the street are opening Coinbase accounts to buy Ripple.  The Ripple rise is entirely central banker orchestrated and they've probably been doing the same with bitcoin.  All of these garbage craptocurrencies are completely centralized anyway, so they have no purpose or fundamentals.  The only decentralized currencies on this planet are physical silver and gold. EVERYTHING digital is a scam.

The only place "wealth" exists is in the physical world, it cannot be stored in 0's and 1's or in your imagination.  Anything digital will always be an IOU that you hope someone will make good on.

[Neo_Coin]

[sirazimuth]

now yu gotta make that bubble move sideways....

[Farmer Bill]

snip

Buying and selling dash is not a taxable event for you? How is that?

Well I understood you pay captial gains when there is a fiat gain in value at the time when you dispose it, ie sell it for fiat. I'm in the UK. I hope I got that right. If I have to proof every single trade between Dash and Bitcoin or whatever other crypto I don't know how on earth I could even start to do that   Some exchanges I have used no longer even exist.

I sympathise, in UK too. 

Since HMRC advice is so sketchy (it goes back to a vague 2014 reference effectively saying 'we will treat it all on a case-by-case basis') we are in the dark.

I only cash out in BTC and only (originally) went in via BTC so, I am asking my accountant to simply list all fiat 'in' events and fiat 'out' events and hoping it will be just CGT.  But be aware they can see it as 'badge of trade' and charge as though it was income if they think you're a trader.

I am hoping if I cough up CGT and list only Bitcoin bought and sold and just pay up, they will accept it.

If not, I will find others here in the same position and suggest we club together to get a QC to fight HMRC - as paying 45% income tax will be too much to let pass.

I know you and I have different 'cryptos of choice' but we may end up in the same expensive boat, under the same threat of a massive tax bill.

Odds on they will just take the CGT, but if not...  Let's consider a fight - I think we can probably both afford to chip in for a legal case with others, which they won't have the staff or competence to want to bother with.

Sometimes Dashheads and Moneroans can perhaps find common cause ;-)

I was reading about an ultrapreneur tax that is flat 10%, you may need to pass a few ticks and go through some hoops in the year before to meet the conditions.

That, I think - is if you sell your business off completely, that is to protect people retiring who have one business and want to cash out (after paying tax on the profits along the way).

If you trade cypto 'as a business' you will pay tax up to 45% on profits made.  Then you 'could' sell the business and get 'entrepeneur's relief'

So unless you have found a way my accountant and I have not - I don't think it's possible.  I wish!

Just had a meeting with my accountant today.
If your sales exceed 4 times CGT allowance ie 4X £11,100 £44,400 ye 2016 then even if your gain is under the annual allowance and no CGT is payable you still have to submit every single transaction. FFS.

Exceptions are sales reinvested same day and sales bought back up to 30 days later.
The transactions must be matched up, the paperwork involved is the stuff of nightmares.

As you say if trading is your business it's treated as income and is subject to income tax top tax rate 40% plus NI at 9% then 2% above £45k.

Yet if BTC collapsed and you wanted to offset the losses against your other capital gains, HMRC would suddenly declare BTC trading as a highly risky enterprise like gambling where no taxes are payable on wins or reliefs on losses.

[d_eddie]

There is absolutely zero retail demand for "Ripple".  No random joes off the street are opening Coinbase accounts to buy Ripple.

I see you can be right too at times. It's a good sign. Happy 2018!

[Micky25]

[sirazimuth]

There is absolutely zero retail demand for "Ripple".  No random joes off the street are opening Coinbase accounts to buy Ripple.

I see you can be right too at times. It's a good sign. Happy 2018!

im gonna laugh if coinbase adds it to the mix overnight with no warning like it did with
that btrash pump fiasco

[the artful bodger]

I sincerely believe we're headed back down to the 12000 range for the new year. Any objections?

Stop ripple shilling already 

I never shilled for a shitcoin in my whole life and you know it.

of course ... but it was worth the troll.

I want to see some real quality sideways memes ... rockets, trains and bears, falling rocks have been overdone imho.

A sideways rocket is the best I can do.

[kurious]

Just had a meeting with my accountant today.
If your sales exceed 4 times CGT allowance ie 4X £11,100 £44,400 ye 2016 then even if your gain is under the annual allowance and no CGT is payable you still have to submit every single transaction. FFS.

Exceptions are sales reinvested same day and sales bought back up to 30 days later.
The transactions must be matched up, the paperwork involved is the stuff of nightmares.

As you say if trading is your business it's treated as income and is subject to income tax top tax rate 40% plus NI at 9% then 2% above £45k.

Yet if BTC collapsed and you wanted to offset the losses against your other capital gains, HMRC would suddenly declare BTC trading as a highly risky enterprise like gambling where no taxes are payable on wins or reliefs on losses.

I intend to only submit transactions to and from Fiat currency.

And this '4x allowance' thing?  Not in any tax rule I have seen.

Get a second opinion, there is no real guidance yet that is this specific on crypto from HMRC.

Accountants are assuming things, but they MAY not be right.

Get yours to show you HMRC guidance specifying what you say above.  A capital gain under the limit is not reportable AFAIAC and if it is over it, it is still simply a capital gain and chargeable at 20%.

You invested X, you sold Y - you pay the difference, I reckon.  And capital gains are only taxable when cashed in IMHO. 

I am not an accountant - but I asked three, and they all gave varying advice, except that they all said you need to say what you orginally paid for the BTC you are now selling.  I realise that ain't easy - but it is possible to do most if you have exchange history.  For Gox, you cannot - but neither can they prove what you spent unless your bank statements show it.

[El duderino_]

Breaking 24777$ prediction game      FINAL LIST       

27/12/2017 bikerleszno
29/12/2018 cAPSLOCK
30/12/2017 digithusiast
31/12/2017 Raja_MBZ
01/01/2018 elg
02/01/2018 wachtwoord
03/01/2018 JimboToronto
04/01/2018 d_eddie
05/01/2018 BTCMILLIONAIRE
06/01/2018 HanvanBitcoin
07/01/2018 ghandi
08/01/2018 savetherainforrest
09/01/2018 explorer
10/01/2018 bicoinpsycho
11/01/2018 Bitcoinaire
12/01/2018 speedwheel
13/01/2018 undeadbitcoiner
14/01/2018 northypole
15/01/2018 ivomm
16/01/2018 maca068
17/01/2018 bitcoinvest
18/01/2018 last of the v8s
19/01/2018 mfort312
20/01/2018 1982dre
21/01/2018 flamast2
22/01/2018 RealMachasm
23/01/2018 willope
24/01/2018 kartala
25/01/2018 orpington
26/01/2018 rolling
27/01/2018 LFC_bitcoin
28/01/2018 jojo69
29/01/2018 CristiTCM
30/01/2018 rayX12
31/01/2018 realsteelboy
01/02/2018 twocorn
02/02/2018 mancroofer
03/02/2018 True Myth
04/02/2018 poolminor
05/02/2018 itod
06/02/2018 scheptan
07/02/2018 vapourminer
08/02/2018 alexeft
09/02/2018 siert
10/02/2018 AlcoHoDL
11/02/2018 Dunkelheit667
12/02/2018 yonton
13/02/2018 Wekkel
14/02/2018 Thekool1s
15/02/2018 starmman
16/02/2018 Globb0
17/02/2018 leveldkrypto
18/02/2018 olesh
19/02/2018 BitCoinBurger
20/02/2018 Paashaas
21/02/2018 flynn
22/02/2018 icygreen
23/02/2018 erisdiscordia
24/02/2018 phil_s
25/02/2018 sirazimuth
26/02/2018 Arriemoller
27/02/2018 yonton
28/02/2018 Muttley
01/03/2018 bones261
02/03/2018 heater
03/03/2018 soullyG
04/03/2018 InvoKing
05/03/2018 Notme
06/03/2018 sa_94
07/03/2018 NUFCrichard
08/03/2018 Imbatman
09/03/2018 Roombot
10/03/2018 STT
11/03/2018 badream
13/03/2018 erre
14/03/2018 julian071
15/03/2018 podyx
17/03/2018 fragout
18/03/2018 fabiorem
21/03/2018 dakustaking76
23/03/2018 nikauforest
31/03/2018 vroom
01/04/2018 somac.
02/04/2018 kurious
04/04/2018 fluidjax
05/04/2018 bitcoinbunny
08/04/2018 tyler1890
10/04/2018 ludwigvon
11/04/2018 hairymaclairy
16/04/2018 practicaldreamer
18/04/2018 free-bit.co.in
27/04/2018 drbrockoin
01/05/2018 sprinkles
02/06/2018 oblox
07/07/2018 IntroVert
03/08/2018 toxic2040
28/08/2018 bitserve
15/10/2018 Yefi
05/11/2018 mikenz
31/12/2018 melman2002
01/01/2019 Spaceman_Spiff_Original
12/02/2019 FractalUniverse
21/04/2019 gentlemand
20/02/2020 romneymoney
18/12/2021 luckygenough56

MERRY XMAS TO Y'ALL     AND GOOD LUCK

[Torque]

There is absolutely zero retail demand for "Ripple".

There is absolutely zero retail demand for many of the thousands of penny stocks out there, but many of them get pumped to the moon too.

So? How is Ripple (or any other shitcoin or ICO token) any different?

A: It isn't.

[TERA2]

I dont care waiting for bitcoin to go down anymore. Theres enough other things going up.

[txtravwill]

Breaking 24777$ prediction game      FINAL LIST       

27/12/2017 bikerleszno
29/12/2018 cAPSLOCK
30/12/2017 digithusiast
31/12/2017 Raja_MBZ
01/01/2018 elg
02/01/2018 wachtwoord
03/01/2018 JimboToronto
04/01/2018 d_eddie
05/01/2018 BTCMILLIONAIRE
06/01/2018 HanvanBitcoin
07/01/2018 ghandi
08/01/2018 savetherainforrest
09/01/2018 explorer
10/01/2018 bicoinpsycho
11/01/2018 Bitcoinaire
12/01/2018 speedwheel
13/01/2018 undeadbitcoiner
14/01/2018 northypole
15/01/2018 ivomm
16/01/2018 maca068
17/01/2018 bitcoinvest
18/01/2018 last of the v8s
19/01/2018 mfort312
20/01/2018 1982dre
21/01/2018 flamast2
22/01/2018 RealMachasm
23/01/2018 willope
24/01/2018 kartala
25/01/2018 orpington
26/01/2018 rolling
27/01/2018 LFC_bitcoin
28/01/2018 jojo69
29/01/2018 CristiTCM
30/01/2018 rayX12
31/01/2018 realsteelboy
01/02/2018 twocorn
02/02/2018 mancroofer
03/02/2018 True Myth
04/02/2018 poolminor
05/02/2018 itod
06/02/2018 scheptan
07/02/2018 vapourminer
08/02/2018 alexeft
09/02/2018 siert
10/02/2018 AlcoHoDL
11/02/2018 Dunkelheit667
12/02/2018 yonton
13/02/2018 Wekkel
14/02/2018 Thekool1s
15/02/2018 starmman
16/02/2018 Globb0
17/02/2018 leveldkrypto
18/02/2018 olesh
19/02/2018 BitCoinBurger
20/02/2018 Paashaas
21/02/2018 flynn
22/02/2018 icygreen
23/02/2018 erisdiscordia
24/02/2018 phil_s
25/02/2018 sirazimuth
26/02/2018 Arriemoller
27/02/2018 yonton
28/02/2018 Muttley
01/03/2018 bones261
02/03/2018 heater
03/03/2018 soullyG
04/03/2018 InvoKing
05/03/2018 Notme
06/03/2018 sa_94
07/03/2018 NUFCrichard
08/03/2018 Imbatman
09/03/2018 Roombot
10/03/2018 STT
11/03/2018 badream
13/03/2018 erre
14/03/2018 julian071
15/03/2018 podyx
17/03/2018 fragout
18/03/2018 fabiorem
21/03/2018 dakustaking76
23/03/2018 nikauforest
31/03/2018 vroom
01/04/2018 somac.
02/04/2018 kurious
04/04/2018 fluidjax
05/04/2018 bitcoinbunny
08/04/2018 tyler1890
10/04/2018 ludwigvon
11/04/2018 hairymaclairy
16/04/2018 practicaldreamer
18/04/2018 free-bit.co.in
27/04/2018 drbrockoin
01/05/2018 sprinkles
02/06/2018 oblox
07/07/2018 IntroVert
03/08/2018 toxic2040
28/08/2018 bitserve
15/10/2018 Yefi
05/11/2018 mikenz
31/12/2018 melman2002
01/01/2019 Spaceman_Spiff_Original
12/02/2019 FractalUniverse
21/04/2019 gentlemand
20/02/2020 romneymoney
18/12/2021 luckygenough56

MERRY XMAS TO Y'ALL     AND GOOD LUCK

Nice, so plopping all the dates into Excel and converting/calculating gives:

4/3/18      Average
2/19/18      Median

[Neo_Coin]

[JayJuanGee]

I sincerely believe we're headed back down to the 12000 range for the new year. Any objections?

Plenty of objections. But no problem should that happen. As long as we remain above $10k, it is all part of a welcome pause.

Below $10k is o.k. too... It just seems that it is going to be quite difficult to get there.

$11,060 would be a double bottom, and there had already been an attempt to go below $12k several days ago... So currently, seems that there is decent support for anything above $10k, $11k and even $12k... What we gonna do?  Pray for more down, or just accept that there continues to be decent upwards and buy pressures, even at these GREAT bargain prices.   

[TERA2]

I think ripple is proof that none of this is based on adoption.

[Neo_Coin]

[Farmer Bill]

Just had a meeting with my accountant today.
If your sales exceed 4 times CGT allowance ie 4X £11,100 £44,400 ye 2016 then even if your gain is under the annual allowance and no CGT is payable you still have to submit every single transaction. FFS.

Exceptions are sales reinvested same day and sales bought back up to 30 days later.
The transactions must be matched up, the paperwork involved is the stuff of nightmares.

As you say if trading is your business it's treated as income and is subject to income tax top tax rate 40% plus NI at 9% then 2% above £45k.

Yet if BTC collapsed and you wanted to offset the losses against your other capital gains, HMRC would suddenly declare BTC trading as a highly risky enterprise like gambling where no taxes are payable on wins or reliefs on losses.

I intend to only submit transactions to and from Fiat currency.

And this '4x allowance' thing?  Not in any tax rule I have seen.

Get a second opinion, there is no real guidance yet that is this specific on crypto from HMRC.

Accountants are assuming things, but they MAY not be right.

Get yours to show you HMRC guidance specifying what you say above.  A capital gain under the limit is not reportable AFAIAC and if it is over it, it is still simply a capital gain and chargeable at 20%.

You invested X, you sold Y - you pay the difference, I reckon.  And capital gains are only taxable when cashed in IMHO. 

I am not an accountant - but I asked three, and they all gave varying advice, except that they all said you need to say what you orginally paid for the BTC you are now selling.  I realise that ain't easy - but it is possible to do most if you have exchange history.  For Gox, you cannot - but neither can they prove what you spent unless your bank statements show it.

I tend to agree with you.

Having paid for this advice I am reluctant to pay again unless it was for someone or a firm specialising in crypto.
Anyone know of such a person / firm.

It seems that HMRC can treat crypto just like any other currency. Any sales transaction is treated as a taxable event, whether you transfer your fiat to your bank account or just leave it on the exchange.

Fortunately last year I was under the limit and so it does not have to be declared on return.
A nightmare avoided as I have no chance of submitting all the transactions made as my Armory wallet was lost when hard drive failed. Although coins are recovered the transactions, purchases goods etc were not. Just as well!

This tax year I will be hit with CGT however I have mostly hodled during this bull run so few transactions and fairly straight.

I just posted this as many small timers will be finding themselves in this position for the first time and should give it some thought in the coming months.

I think Jimbo Toronto has the right idea by buying at ATM even if paying % over odds. And keeping dealings private.

[realr0ach]

I'm not a Cliff High fan, but kind of interesting in March 2017 his web bot crap called for $13-14k bitcoin and $4800 gold (with silver having much larger gains) by March 2018:

http://cointelegraph.com/news/bitcoin-price-will-triple-gold-in-2018-silver-achieves-parity-with-gold-clif-high

Bitcoin already made it's move, here comes silver and gold starting to ramp up now.

[gentlemand]

I tend to agree with you.

Having paid for this advice I am reluctant to pay again unless it was for someone or a firm specialising in crypto.
Anyone know of such a person / firm.

Whoever you went to see, I've never, ever heard any 'advice' along those lines. Sounds like total bilge to me. The problem with the UK is that the HMRC have basically published a few paragraphs a few years ago and now leave it to everyone else to interpret them.

This geezer - https://www.reddit.com/user/krissaroth  I think is an accountant and has written quite a bit in r/bitcoinuk. Maybe it's worth PMing him. If he himself doesn't do crypto he might know someone who does.

Lots of other threads about it in there too.