Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion

[jbreher]

The general consensus is we are going down further, maybe to re-test the 6k range or below.  Im hoping we do so I can go all in.  What a great opportunity it was last time and I missed out.  I dont plan on making the same mistake again.

Looks like you are already making the same mistake again.

Q: When is the best day to buy into Bitcoin?
a: Today. The correct answer is always 'Today'. You can't buy it yesterday. Tomorrow might be cheaper, and might not. It may never again be as cheap as today. The only certainty left is that in the future, it will be more expensive.  So, today is the day.

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[Sitarow]

I should probably also point out that the the electricity consumption debate on BTC is being magnified by the media. The data centers of the olympics consume way more than Bitcoin does, but ofcourse we don't pay any attention to that. If you hear the media talking about electricity consumption try for yourself to atleast get a frame of reference on what such consumption means. They're just comparing it to countries but what about certain data centers and payment solutions? How does it compare to those? How does it compare to an industrial complex? Those are the things you don't hear. Everyone is just salty for not buying BTC for pennies (   )  

This is a popular form of whataboutism, that I have heard here before. People trying to justify the costly nature of bitcoin by comparing it to the incomparable. Just like you did here, by comparing the worlds nr1 athletic event with 3,6billion viewers to a speculative digital asset and with maximum 5 million active users.
The costs of running the bitcoin blockchain should be compared to the comparable - meaning to the costs of other blockchains!

No other blockchain is comparable to Bitcoin, because no other blockchain is decentralized, and in the end, that's all that really matters.

At first, bitcoin blockchain is centralized around pools. 3 pools are enough for a 51% attack. That makes bitcoin as centralized as most and more centralized then some.
Second, centralization will only matter to low educated millennials, who are dumb enough to actually believe the "bitcoin vs fiat" sales pitch BS narrative. In the real world of fiance and economy, what counts is efficiency, not fantasy.

3 Pools that  can quickly be abandoned by miners for other pools.

Takes moments to do.

In all honesty, I myself have always considered a 51% attack on any PoW or PoS coin a very low key threat. I was just replaying to the previous poster on why bitcoin isn't special in decentralization.

Its true, considering how difficulty targeting takes time with BTC unlike other coins having collusion with this much decentralization is next to impossible for many reasons both social and technical.

I do however have a growing concern with news articles and write ups coming from respected banking and tech institutions that elude to the idea that the only ground breaking technology worth anything is blockchain and that the rest associated with bitcoin can be cast aside.

Bitcoin is the rising tide and this attempt to disregard the Bitcoin network as a trivial thing is disconcerting.

Bitcoin has 3 important aspects to it that can't be ignored, disregarded  or trivialized as unimportant.

The size of overall hashrate doesn't mater much if the network is distributed between pools.

Most people in finance see the bitcoiners that come with bitcoin as dead weight. They are interested in shaping the technology and using it to personal advantage. No one is interested in making a bunch of people rich just for purchasing a digital token. And they can't be blamed for this because in the capitalist world we live in, it's the only logical choice. "The loyalty of Bitcoiner" isn't exactly higly valued, because well, bitcoiners come to the market mostly to consume, not to create.

Indeed that loyalty is not what I am implying. Its similar to anyone who may come along and say they wish to create their version of the internet. Some have argued that the most vocal people in "finance" are clueless with real world events and future prediction of human social evolutionary needs.

Factor in my recent post on how some in finance say that Bitcoin is overvalued but fail to understand there are serious benefits for it.

For instance some still feel the need to invest heavily into hardware mining for one reason or another and even tho it would prove more profitable to simply by Bitcoin at BTC/USD present rate.

Here is the numbers for you to review. I purposely only included hardware and electrical costs to simplify an already complex mining example of what it takes to make a single BTC at the interval rate of one every 12 days and 1 every day.

IMO you would have a better return if you solo mine if you had this much hash power.

What does it cost to generate 1BTC?

The fact that many don't understand what it takes to secure one bitcoin when statements like it costs fails to give the simple value at what interval is "ONE" bitcoin made.

This document shows how much mining power you would need to security one BTC a day and every 12 Days since difficulty is adjusting every 12-14 days on average.

To produce one bitcoin a day using the latest hardware from Bitmain would take an investment of $2,366,417.19 USD or about 250 BTC to secure a quantity of 1,020 S9 13.5 TH ASIC mining units. That equals a total hash rate of 13,770TH or 13.77 PH.

As you can see if you factor in just hardware loan repayment and power costs never mind any other type of costs and you run at a loss at $9500.00 - There are far better investments you can do than invest 2.3 million USD instead of hardware.

However those that do mine know that BTC at this price is a buy opportunity rather than investing in hardware.

Document: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/11QS1BBV11KNGTF8N_-fdfmjTZ3WzPQFbLfVrl5n6R8s/edit?usp=sharing

Thank you for the well written reply.

It is possible that I am clueless regarding bitcoin. I just don't find this possibility highly probable. I think that the mentality involving bitcoiners is a little religious and therefor can be irrational and unpredictable. That is why I also often get surprised here.

I think that the overvaluation in bitcoin is currently supporting the overvaluation of fiat, and most people in finance realize this and it's benefits.

I don't think that the motivation to mine bitcoin is a good thing. It promotes wastage of energy and creation of equipment that only solves one problem and that problem doesn't even have to exist. This energy, effort and resources could be used with a lot more common sense.
Yeah, you would have better return alone, already by just losing pool fee. But sadly bitcoin isn't built in a way that it could be mined alone. Centralization and specialization were inevitable with the coming of ASICs and that was a big part of the reason why I lost faith in bitcoin. I see bitcoin ASIC mining as a foolish rat race that should not exist under the rule of common sense. All of this was about finding the cheapest solution to offer the most, now it's totally upside down.

But thank you again for the well written post. I don't see many of them here. I did enjoy reading the stats that you showed, but I just can't agree that motivating bitcoin mining is a good thing.

Bitcoin mining is just one aspect of the big picture, I simply use it as a way to help me and others see things from a different perspective.

As you had pointed out, the nature of greed can undermine any project. But as this is an open market, if mining makes business sense then so be it.

At this price point for many it does not. Yet the network continues to grow.

[Karartma1]

That was back when threads on this forum were relevant and we discussed things. Instead of being just tools to get peoples' signature campaigns post counts.

At least in this thread, signatures are suppressed - a blessing, I'd say.

We do have to put up with uninformed dickheads and shills and FUDsters, but we have valid contrarian voices and a healthy discussion, if we manage to skip the shitposts without soiling ourselves.

Couldn't agree more.

"Load a deep. Zidewayz until azleep, den crash eet wit de exakt same Korea FUD. Get Vitaleek on zee line..."

Hey Bob, how many beerz today?

[Jacques_Bittard]

I should probably also point out that the the electricity consumption debate on BTC is being magnified by the media. The data centers of the olympics consume way more than Bitcoin does, but ofcourse we don't pay any attention to that. If you hear the media talking about electricity consumption try for yourself to atleast get a frame of reference on what such consumption means. They're just comparing it to countries but what about certain data centers and payment solutions? How does it compare to those? How does it compare to an industrial complex? Those are the things you don't hear. Everyone is just salty for not buying BTC for pennies (   )  

This is a popular form of whataboutism, that I have heard here before. People trying to justify the costly nature of bitcoin by comparing it to the incomparable. Just like you did here, by comparing the worlds nr1 athletic event with 3,6billion viewers to a speculative digital asset and with maximum 5 million active users.
The costs of running the bitcoin blockchain should be compared to the comparable - meaning to the costs of other blockchains!

No other blockchain is comparable to Bitcoin, because no other blockchain is decentralized, and in the end, that's all that really matters.

At first, bitcoin blockchain is centralized around pools. 3 pools are enough for a 51% attack. That makes bitcoin as centralized as most and more centralized then some.
Second, centralization will only matter to low educated millennials, who are dumb enough to actually believe the "bitcoin vs fiat" sales pitch BS narrative. In the real world of fiance and economy, what counts is efficiency, not fantasy.

If you hate bitcoin so much why are you here?

I'm here for the tears of bitcoiners and sometimes some rainmaking is needed. Also, the sentiment here can also be a good indicator to help with my crypto gambling habbits.

centralization will only matter to low educated millennials

If you are here, its due to the internet which is... decentralised.   Yes it was designed that way quite famously, I thought everyone had heard of this.   Its very significant overall but also to crypto because otherwise it would be far easier to disrupt crypto standards.

So who does it matter to, everybody.     Not everyone has to use crypto but it should be considered in this way, in relation to the dollar reserve standard which is incredibly flawed and very much centralised.   Its an ongoing dynamic not a sales pitch to anyone or a slogan.   There are effects in play worth noting, this contrast between distribution and centralised authority and its effect on the failure of capitalism in the modern world is about the most important topic I can think of.
   Everyone is involved, either they speak or they haven't yet learnt the words or dont even understand the problem.  I dont think I'm wrong in assuming peak crypto could coincide with everyone speaking and everyone recognises there is a problem to global trade based on one country's currency.   Its been a known point of failure from its outset 70 years ago

The internet was mostly decentralized, now most of it's internet traffic is centralized to few large corporation. Value and usability have only risen together with centralization, so I repeat, that not many care about centralization. Efficiency to move large amounts of information cheap was the reason that caused Internets success. People don't care if it's centralized or not, just as long as it works.
And the inefficiency to move information cheap will cause the downfall of bitcoin .

[RejectedBanana]

History rhymes, it never repeats.

Which time best rhymes with now?

Vote here:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=3174299.0

[xhomerx10]

History rhymes, it never repeats.

Which time best rhymes with now?

Vote here:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=3174299.0

E=MC²


What do i win?!

[Jacques_Bittard]

I should probably also point out that the the electricity consumption debate on BTC is being magnified by the media. The data centers of the olympics consume way more than Bitcoin does, but ofcourse we don't pay any attention to that. If you hear the media talking about electricity consumption try for yourself to atleast get a frame of reference on what such consumption means. They're just comparing it to countries but what about certain data centers and payment solutions? How does it compare to those? How does it compare to an industrial complex? Those are the things you don't hear. Everyone is just salty for not buying BTC for pennies (   )  

This is a popular form of whataboutism, that I have heard here before. People trying to justify the costly nature of bitcoin by comparing it to the incomparable. Just like you did here, by comparing the worlds nr1 athletic event with 3,6billion viewers to a speculative digital asset and with maximum 5 million active users.
The costs of running the bitcoin blockchain should be compared to the comparable - meaning to the costs of other blockchains!

No other blockchain is comparable to Bitcoin, because no other blockchain is decentralized, and in the end, that's all that really matters.

At first, bitcoin blockchain is centralized around pools. 3 pools are enough for a 51% attack. That makes bitcoin as centralized as most and more centralized then some.
Second, centralization will only matter to low educated millennials, who are dumb enough to actually believe the "bitcoin vs fiat" sales pitch BS narrative. In the real world of fiance and economy, what counts is efficiency, not fantasy.

3 Pools that  can quickly be abandoned by miners for other pools.

Takes moments to do.

In all honesty, I myself have always considered a 51% attack on any PoW or PoS coin a very low key threat. I was just replaying to the previous poster on why bitcoin isn't special in decentralization.

Its true, considering how difficulty targeting takes time with BTC unlike other coins having collusion with this much decentralization is next to impossible for many reasons both social and technical.

I do however have a growing concern with news articles and write ups coming from respected banking and tech institutions that elude to the idea that the only ground breaking technology worth anything is blockchain and that the rest associated with bitcoin can be cast aside.

Bitcoin is the rising tide and this attempt to disregard the Bitcoin network as a trivial thing is disconcerting.

Bitcoin has 3 important aspects to it that can't be ignored, disregarded  or trivialized as unimportant.

The size of overall hashrate doesn't mater much if the network is distributed between pools.

Most people in finance see the bitcoiners that come with bitcoin as dead weight. They are interested in shaping the technology and using it to personal advantage. No one is interested in making a bunch of people rich just for purchasing a digital token. And they can't be blamed for this because in the capitalist world we live in, it's the only logical choice. "The loyalty of Bitcoiner" isn't exactly higly valued, because well, bitcoiners come to the market mostly to consume, not to create.

Indeed that loyalty is not what I am implying. Its similar to anyone who may come along and say they wish to create their version of the internet. Some have argued that the most vocal people in "finance" are clueless with real world events and future prediction of human social evolutionary needs.

Factor in my recent post on how some in finance say that Bitcoin is overvalued but fail to understand there are serious benefits for it.

For instance some still feel the need to invest heavily into hardware mining for one reason or another and even tho it would prove more profitable to simply by Bitcoin at BTC/USD present rate.

Here is the numbers for you to review. I purposely only included hardware and electrical costs to simplify an already complex mining example of what it takes to make a single BTC at the interval rate of one every 12 days and 1 every day.

IMO you would have a better return if you solo mine if you had this much hash power.

What does it cost to generate 1BTC?

The fact that many don't understand what it takes to secure one bitcoin when statements like it costs fails to give the simple value at what interval is "ONE" bitcoin made.

This document shows how much mining power you would need to security one BTC a day and every 12 Days since difficulty is adjusting every 12-14 days on average.

To produce one bitcoin a day using the latest hardware from Bitmain would take an investment of $2,366,417.19 USD or about 250 BTC to secure a quantity of 1,020 S9 13.5 TH ASIC mining units. That equals a total hash rate of 13,770TH or 13.77 PH.

As you can see if you factor in just hardware loan repayment and power costs never mind any other type of costs and you run at a loss at $9500.00 - There are far better investments you can do than invest 2.3 million USD instead of hardware.

However those that do mine know that BTC at this price is a buy opportunity rather than investing in hardware.

Document: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/11QS1BBV11KNGTF8N_-fdfmjTZ3WzPQFbLfVrl5n6R8s/edit?usp=sharing

Thank you for the well written reply.

It is possible that I am clueless regarding bitcoin. I just don't find this possibility highly probable. I think that the mentality involving bitcoiners is a little religious and therefor can be irrational and unpredictable. That is why I also often get surprised here.

I think that the overvaluation in bitcoin is currently supporting the overvaluation of fiat, and most people in finance realize this and it's benefits.

I don't think that the motivation to mine bitcoin is a good thing. It promotes wastage of energy and creation of equipment that only solves one problem and that problem doesn't even have to exist. This energy, effort and resources could be used with a lot more common sense.
Yeah, you would have better return alone, already by just losing pool fee. But sadly bitcoin isn't built in a way that it could be mined alone. Centralization and specialization were inevitable with the coming of ASICs and that was a big part of the reason why I lost faith in bitcoin. I see bitcoin ASIC mining as a foolish rat race that should not exist under the rule of common sense. All of this was about finding the cheapest solution to offer the most, now it's totally upside down.

But thank you again for the well written post. I don't see many of them here. I did enjoy reading the stats that you showed, but I just can't agree that motivating bitcoin mining is a good thing.

Bitcoin mining is just one aspect of the big picture, I simply use it as a way to help me and others see things from a different perspective.

As you had pointed out, the nature of greed can undermine any project. But as this is an open market, if mining makes business sense then so be it.

At this price point for many it does not. Yet the network continues to grow.

You explained yourself well and it's a pleasure to converse with you.

It's a good thing that this industry stimulated the current financial climate, but it's very dangerous that this industry is so bitcoin centric. People should come back to earth and acknowledge that you can't create an independently valued currency with this simplistic distribution model. That bitcoin was just the first usable product of this quickly developing industry, like the Altair was with personal computing. If attention is stuck in bitcoin and it's stagnant technological development, just because some crooks made up some goxdollars or tether to draw alot of attention, then to me it's a bad thing for the industry.

[yefi]

Oh??? my?? so much respect for you!!!!!!!!!!!!




NOT


Your story is so convincing that you sold your BTC at the top of the two most recent exponential peaks, and you happen to buy back at the lowest too (most likely) and you are here talking a bunch of nonsense, even though you happen to know exactly when to buy and when to sell...   Yeah right...  

I would like to have some of what you are smoking.

Well, I guess if this confabulation makes him feel better... the images of park benches and brown bags probably haunt him.

[Jacques_Bittard]

Considering ETH and EOS didn’t exist in 2014, and XRP was a dog, it’s all a bit fishy.  

2014 was mostly in fiat. Tried a little with PPC and LTC, but got out as soon as I was sober. ETH earned most in 2015, XRP and EOS earned most in 2017

That’s lovely. Why don’t you toddle off and go buy some $ICX or whatever it is you kids get up to these days.

Give me enough tears and I will go, I promise!

Whatever discomfort the failure to break back up through the ~$9,000 resistance has caused me is being offset by the pleasure of deleting your posts.  

I have no objections. The posts that you have deleted held little value and I think that you have moderated this thread in a cool and objective manner.
To my defense, I tend to troll those who attempt to troll me. I can't help mirroring people like that.

[bitChipper]

Considering ETH and EOS didn’t exist in 2014, and XRP was a dog, it’s all a bit fishy.  

2014 was mostly in fiat. Tried a little with PPC and LTC, but got out as soon as I was sober. ETH earned most in 2015, XRP and EOS earned most in 2017

That’s lovely. Why don’t you toddle off and go buy some $ICX or whatever it is you kids get up to these days.  It’s up 46%.  Just think, you could be a billionaire before breakfast.  

It's just the craze these days, whether BTC maximilist like it or not billions or dollars are flowing into these ICO tokens, doesn't look like it will slow down anytime soon either.

https://www.coindesk.com/waking-dragon-asias-token-economy-is-charging-full-speed-ahead/

At-least PPC and LTC still exist today, I wonder how many of these ICO token will still be around in a couple years?

[marcus_of_augustus]

... i think the tard guy is jorgestolfi ... MO and 2013-era FUD is pretty much identical.

What is it about socialism that rots people's minds into pulsing mass pumping out an continuous stream of irrational gobbledegook?

[RejectedBanana]

History rhymes, it never repeats.

Which time best rhymes with now?

Vote here:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=3174299.0

E=MC²


What do i win?!

Pure Energy
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lRyHZccoAsk

[Toxic2040]

Good afternoon everyone.

Bitcoin has held steady thru out the night around the 9k mark. Accumulation is still happening in my opinion and by the look of the 4 hour chart I would say this is going to continue until after the daily candle. I expect a slight retrace as shorts are closed and consolidation takes place before a push towards 10k later this evening. The area that I am keeping a eye on is the 11.8k resistance level, if bitcoin reaches there and turns that area into support. That will be the confirmation of a bullish spring we have all been looking for.
#dyor #stronghands #btfd

[HairyMaclairy]

Considering ETH and EOS didn’t exist in 2014, and XRP was a dog, it’s all a bit fishy.  

2014 was mostly in fiat. Tried a little with PPC and LTC, but got out as soon as I was sober. ETH earned most in 2015, XRP and EOS earned most in 2017

That’s lovely. Why don’t you toddle off and go buy some $ICX or whatever it is you kids get up to these days.  It’s up 46%.  Just think, you could be a billionaire before breakfast.  

It's just the craze these days, whether BTC maximilist like it or not billions or dollars are flowing into these ICO tokens, doesn't look like it will slow down anytime soon either.

https://www.coindesk.com/waking-dragon-asias-token-economy-is-charging-full-speed-ahead/

At-least PPC and LTC still exist today, I wonder how many of these ICO token will still be around in a couple years?

This is what the market looked like when I entered in December 2013.  How many of those shitcoins are still around and have value ?  LTC and XRP (and I’m open to arguments that LTC is not a shitcoin).  Interestingly BTC has outperformed LTC over that time period and is not that far behind XRP in return - I thought the differential was greater.

The only sensible choice back then was to hold BTC and it remains the only sensible choice.  We can throw play money at alts but let’s recognise it for what it is - gambling.

[JayJuanGee]

Considering ETH and EOS didn’t exist in 2014, and XRP was a dog, it’s all a bit fishy.  

2014 was mostly in fiat. Tried a little with PPC and LTC, but got out as soon as I was sober. ETH earned most in 2015, XRP and EOS earned most in 2017

That’s lovely. Why don’t you toddle off and go buy some $ICX or whatever it is you kids get up to these days.

Give me enough tears and I will go, I promise!

Whatever discomfort the failure to break back up through the ~$9,000 resistance has caused me is being offset by the pleasure of deleting your posts.  

I have no objections. The posts that you have deleted held little value and I think that you have moderated this thread in a cool and objective manner.
To my defense, I tend to troll those who attempt to troll me. I can't help mirroring people like that.

You are so full of shit, that perhaps you need to be careful regarding exploding at some point soon?  Cuidado mujer.

You know that you are not mirroring anybody.. but instead you come into this thread to stir shit, and then you try to flip matters around so it appears that someone else started the nonsensical discussion, so likely you have learned a lot of these trolling shill techniques through the years, and the more attention you get towards distracting topics, likely the better you get paid... however, you likely are living out of grandma's basement and you are underpaid for your trolling talents, so you don't really need much besides a good imagination to make a living off of this because grandma pays for everything, including cookies and milk from time to time as you need them to keep you revved up.

You are a useful tool for the bankster corporate shills; hopefully they are paying you in bitcoin, even if that remains ironic for you to be receiving and perhaps HODLing the thing that you are FUDding.

[icoping]

You are a useful tool for the bankster corporate shills; hopefully they are paying you in bitcoin, even if that remains ironic for you to be receiving and perhaps HODLing the thing that you are FUDding.

Haven't you argued vehemently against increasing Bitcoin's native blocksize limit?

Have you then not served the interests of the fat bankster pigs as well?

[xhomerx10]

History rhymes, it never repeats.

Which time best rhymes with now?

Vote here:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=3174299.0

E=MC²


What do i win?!

Pure Energy
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lRyHZccoAsk

 Good answer! I love that song.

[Last of the V8s]

https://www.treasury.gov/resource-center/faqs/Sanctions/Pages/faq_compliance.aspx#vc_faqs
561. How will OFAC use its existing authorities to sanction those who use digital currencies for illicit purposes?
562. How will OFAC identify digital currency-related information on the SDN List?

in which the USG flounders about misunderstanding bitcoin

[JayJuanGee]

You are a useful tool for the bankster corporate shills; hopefully they are paying you in bitcoin, even if that remains ironic for you to be receiving and perhaps HODLing the thing that you are FUDding.

Haven't you argued vehemently against increasing Bitcoin's native blocksize limit?

Have you then not served the interests of the fat bankster pigs as well?

Another fuckster BIG BLOCKer nutjob.  Oh my?  

Don't you realize BIG BLOCKer talking points are dead, and you need to come up with something new?

By the way, you try to make this about me, you newbie bcash shill, and I am not arguing shit in regards to the various BIG BLOCKer nutjob claims that come into this thread periodically, so don't try to frame the issue as if I have some kind of thing to prove, because I don't.  Most frequently, when one of you BIG BLOCKer nutjob comes into the thread to make your stupid ass claims, you try to act as if the other side has the burden to prove that it is correct rather than you, when it does not.  

The fact of the matter is if you want BIG BLOCKS to be adopted, then you have the burden to show that it is going to be helpful in some kind of way (you need to show with facts and/or logic).. at least more helpful than it hurts, and it seems that no one of importance (besides a bunch of stupid ass bcash supporters) is convinced about the lack of evidence and/or logic that you various BIG BLOCKer nutjobs have produced for your position about the supposed goodness of BIG BLOCKS...

So why don't you go back to r/btc or Bitcoin.com where your views are more appreciated, and to support your bcash BIG BLOCK crap that is going to spread around the world...   hahahahahaha.. NOT too likely to spread more than sinking to zero, and that is why you are in this thread trying to bash bitcoin rather than building on your BIG BLOCKer btrash project that is going to bring more problems than it solves to the extent that it has hardly any smart/competent developers who are able to really focus on what is important in a coin...  

[jbreher]

Bitcoin ... mining costs over 1000$ per user a year. How the heck is more people having it going to fix this?!

Amortizing the unit system price across more users does exactly this, silly.

At the end even he confesses that there are newer and better cryptos then bitcoin,

If so, he is wrong. Certainly there are newer cryptos than bitcoin. And there are other cryptos that are better at niche use cases than bitcoin. But as far as being a usable money or store of value, bitcoin remains king of the hill.

This guy doesn't know the heck he is talking about and is possibly having some kind of a mental breakdown.

Odd thing to publicize about yourself, but okay....