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Question: Aug. 16 Closing Price:
$5,500-$6,000 - 29 (17.5%)
$6,000-$6,500 - 27 (16.3%)
$6,500-$7,000 - 26 (15.7%)
$7,000-$7,500 - 14 (8.4%)
$7,500-$8,000 - 9 (5.4%)
$8,000-$8,500 - 15 (9%)
$8,500-$9,000 - 10 (6%)
$9,000-$9,500 - 7 (4.2%)
$9,500-$10,000 - 29 (17.5%)
Total Voters: 166

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Author Topic: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion  (Read 20389214 times)
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Globb0
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June 13, 2018, 09:29:06 PM

Question I have been a bit scared to ask because people here jump down your throat if you dare be different.

If lightening introduces cheaper/free-like transactions? wont that diminish the value/volume of expensive(price driving) bitcoin transactions on the main chain?

I have thought enough about this to have some things to say. I'll add more later if I can think of more.

The bitcoin blockchain is an immutable eternal database. You can store something in there and be confident that that information will be stored forever. That is crazy useful. Property titles, ownership tokens, other blockchains will offer this of course, but bitcoin will always be the most ideal place.

Also we can always just not increase the block size, ever, until we feel like miners are more than fairly compensated through transaction fees and all models predict that a modest increase in block size will still reatain adequate network security. In fact we can base our decisions about when to increase the block size on no consideration other than security. I personally feel that everything else is secondary.

Also I don't think there is a world where lightning gets to the point where it isn't unjustifiably cumbersome for large transactions. Nation states that want to use bitcoin as an alternative to SWIFT will probably find the blockchain it's self to be the place to do something like that. So there will still always be a marginal demand for on chain transactions.

Thanks for taking the time to try and help me understand

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d_eddie
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June 13, 2018, 09:44:52 PM

More FUD. Academics. Perfect timing.

Bitcoin's 2017 Rise Was Market Manipulation By Tether: Study
https://www.investopedia.com/news/bitcoins-2017-rise-was-market-manipulation-tether-study/
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June 13, 2018, 09:46:48 PM

Question I have been a bit scared to ask because people here jump down your throat if you dare be different.

If lightening introduces cheaper/free-like transactions? wont that diminish the value/volume of expensive(price driving) bitcoin transactions on the main chain?

I have thought enough about this to have some things to say. I'll add more later if I can think of more.

The bitcoin blockchain is an immutable eternal database. You can store something in there and be confident that that information will be stored forever. That is crazy useful. Property titles, ownership tokens, other blockchains will offer this of course, but bitcoin will always be the most ideal place.

Also we can always just not increase the block size, ever, until we feel like miners are more than fairly compensated through transaction fees and all models predict that a modest increase in block size will still reatain adequate network security. In fact we can base our decisions about when to increase the block size on no consideration other than security. I personally feel that everything else is secondary.

Also I don't think there is a world where lightning gets to the point where it isn't unjustifiably cumbersome for large transactions. Nation states that want to use bitcoin as an alternative to SWIFT will probably find the blockchain it's self to be the place to do something like that. So there will still always be a marginal demand for on chain transactions.

It's about choices, IMO.  

Much of the ideals we early bitcoiners have lauded are not something that all of humanity can share without there being a tremendous amount of personal responsibility.  Probably an unreasonable amount.

For example:  Banks.

Hang around here and you will read many saying GET RID OF 'EM.   But the fact is we will always need them.  At least some people will.  And layer 2 lets us build the services that the new "banks" will use to offer us value for letting them put their paws on our money.  Here is something we are hearing said a lot recently: "Custodial services".  Not everyone has the ability or desire to do the sort of opsec to safeguard deep amounts of value in crypto.  And even the more savvy like (dare i say) many of us would benefit from a nice liquid place to lock up some liquid money for spending and moving around.

Layer 1 plus layer 2 gives me the option to be responsible for the mass of my wealth privately, while directing some of it into channels that may look a little like banks... or perhaps less distributed.

Lightning gives us a choice.    I like that.
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June 13, 2018, 10:03:23 PM

In other news, shorters take the blame.

https://www.marketwatch.com/Story/heres-why-bitcoin-is-fallingand-it-isnt-just-the-coinrail-exchange-hack-2018-06-13
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yeah,well you know that's just like your opinion


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June 13, 2018, 10:09:47 PM



NEWS FOR YOU     ITS YOUR DATE    Shocked  Roll Eyes  Grin

QUICK list 12288 is finisht GOOD LUCK   WO's

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mymenace
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June 13, 2018, 10:24:24 PM

I just ran into this. This is so stupid.




I'm so tired of all of this ignorant anti lighting network rhetoric that I keep hearing and seeing constantly. Do you guys think Ver is funding this BS. It feels like there is just too much of it for it to be organic.


P.S. Do you guys feel this is on topic enough for the wall observer thread. It's not about jews at least... but it's exactly about the price either... I just wanted a place to rant where it would actually be read and it is about bitcoin atleast...
Not enough talk of jello wrestling and asses, I say delete it.

Distributed is the new centralization


A lot of think tanks have worked out they can still manipulate if they run a distributed program and know we now hate centralization (anything centralized)


So now the fear starts as to why distributed programs are "SAFE" and "SECURE" for you


example
an australian bitcoin voting party announced Direct Democracy
you vote on each policy
then all of a sudden it changed from
Direct (Decentralized) Vs. Indirect Distribution (Centralized)
http://www.youngupstarts.com/2017/09/04/direct-vs-indirect-distribution/

run away from the flux party

you can call them out now, go have fun



Remember lightning network is just the same as your credit card, atm, visa mastercard network

a faster payment system on top of the banks

keep it simple and decentralized no worries

RayX12
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June 13, 2018, 10:26:37 PM

Someone said:

Be greedy when others are fearful!

Buy Buy Buy Bitcoin.

DonQuijote
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June 13, 2018, 10:33:35 PM

Someone said:

Be greedy when others are fearful!

Buy Buy Buy Bitcoin.


since 19k $ Huh
its not the dip
jojo69
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June 13, 2018, 11:12:37 PM
Merited by paxmao (1)

Miners won't let the price fall to 5000.
This is only one aspect to the manipulation that’s been going on since September. However if you look at the hash rate, it’s trending upwards, almost parabolically. This is because asic miners are in excess and they can ship them out much faster than last year, when demand was at ATH. Coupled with strange miner confidence in bitcoin which I cannot explain. Even if you ignore hashrate increase, assume miners do not leave bitcoin, and look at the price vs. block difficulty by the end of the year, profitability approaches 0 in all cases from 7500-10000. If miners switch, it can alleviate this pressure, but who will be leaving and who can afford to weather this storm currently? Big farms are more economical than small miners. It seems like an effort to weed out small miners and their coins, while centralizing mining, all while they can make money by liquidating people on longs/shorts. If it wasn’t a manipulated market I wouldn’t believe this, but it seems likely. I welcome regulations and investigations into market manipulation. After all, exchanges are the only ones who can see real volume.

People don't seem to understand that miners can and will mine at a loss.  The only real limit is that it be cheaper than other forms of money laundering.
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June 13, 2018, 11:23:31 PM

This bounce will be fun to watch. It would be the 3rd. But a lot of people don't like to watch it macro and don't see the over-sold triggers all over the place.
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June 13, 2018, 11:24:11 PM
Merited by paxmao (1)

Miners won't let the price fall to 5000.
This is only one aspect to the manipulation that’s been going on since September. However if you look at the hash rate, it’s trending upwards, almost parabolically. This is because asic miners are in excess and they can ship them out much faster than last year, when demand was at ATH. Coupled with strange miner confidence in bitcoin which I cannot explain. Even if you ignore hashrate increase, assume miners do not leave bitcoin, and look at the price vs. block difficulty by the end of the year, profitability approaches 0 in all cases from 7500-10000. If miners switch, it can alleviate this pressure, but who will be leaving and who can afford to weather this storm currently? Big farms are more economical than small miners. It seems like an effort to weed out small miners and their coins, while centralizing mining, all while they can make money by liquidating people on longs/shorts. If it wasn’t a manipulated market I wouldn’t believe this, but it seems likely. I welcome regulations and investigations into market manipulation. After all, exchanges are the only ones who can see real volume.

People don't seem to understand that miners can and will mine at a loss.  The only real limit is that it be cheaper than other forms of money laundering.
Yeah Bitmain is about to go public, it helps a lot to go public as a profitable company with high demand for it's products, a fall below mining cost kills buying and their revenue. They won't let that happen right now.
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June 13, 2018, 11:29:35 PM
Merited by Globb0 (2), Karartma1 (1), Anon136 (1), paxmao (1)

If lightening introduces cheaper/free-like transactions? wont that diminish the value/volume of expensive(price driving) bitcoin transactions on the main chain?

Lightning Network payments are capped at an upper bound. I believe it's something like 0.05 BTC maximum, per transaction, at the moment.

It's great for micropayments, but if you want to send someone more than 0.05 BTC, you're better off using Bitcoin proper.

For now at least.



I just ran into this. This is so stupid.

No shit it can't look like the one on the right. The one on the right is the problem. That's what bitcoin looks like right now and it's the reason why it doesn't scale.

What Lightning ACTUALLY looks like.


https://lnmainnet.gaben.win/

We're in good hands.
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June 13, 2018, 11:52:31 PM

I'm very disheartened today. Lost a major chunk of my bitcoin holdings (almost 0.38 BTC) on Bitmex even though I've been longing since $8000 with just 4x leverage (adding more & more after every dump to average it further down), but still at $6140, I got liquidated. With this, I can pretty much assure that $6140 was actually the bottom. It was only to liquidate me, hard luck. Don't comment that I need to risk only what I can afford to lose, I know that very well, just had some real bad luck (as well as confusion) this time.

what does this mean?

This means:

1. register on Bitmex
2. deposit bitcoin
3. choose at least 10x leverage and go long (right now at $6500)
4. get your bitcoin doubled when bitcoin reaches $7500

I take this advice completely back. I'm not going to open that website ever again. Probably a URL which I'll hate the most after LibertyReserve.com.

Miners won't let the price fall to 5000.
This is only one aspect to the manipulation that’s been going on since September. However if you look at the hash rate, it’s trending upwards, almost parabolically. This is because asic miners are in excess and they can ship them out much faster than last year, when demand was at ATH. Coupled with strange miner confidence in bitcoin which I cannot explain. Even if you ignore hashrate increase, assume miners do not leave bitcoin, and look at the price vs. block difficulty by the end of the year, profitability approaches 0 in all cases from 7500-10000. If miners switch, it can alleviate this pressure, but who will be leaving and who can afford to weather this storm currently? Big farms are more economical than small miners. It seems like an effort to weed out small miners and their coins, while centralizing mining, all while they can make money by liquidating people on longs/shorts. If it wasn’t a manipulated market I wouldn’t believe this, but it seems likely. I welcome regulations and investigations into market manipulation. After all, exchanges are the only ones who can see real volume.

People don't seem to understand that miners can and will mine at a loss.  The only real limit is that it be cheaper than other forms of money laundering.

True. Moreover, increasing hash-rate doesn't necessarily mean that the number of miners is increasing, it might also be due to the newer versions of Bitmain now available in the market with greatly improved efficiency.
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June 13, 2018, 11:56:52 PM

Update.  https://i.imgur.com/xRIRPLv.png

Still has major support levels.  HODL

Analysis here. http://blockchainshowdown.blogspot.com/2018/06/btc-usd-june-14-2018.html
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June 14, 2018, 12:14:58 AM
Merited by Jayjay04 (50)

6k is bottom. Gonna just go out on a limb and say we won’t see sub 6k coins.



Some buy volume coming in.

Hit the edge of the descending wedge

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June 14, 2018, 12:20:16 AM
Merited by paxmao (1)

Good news
https://blog.coinbase.com/coinbase-index-fund-is-open-for-investment-61217606f1ef
Quote
Coinbase Index Fund is now open for investments of $250,000 to $20M.

Coinbase Index Fund gives investors exposure to all assets listed on our exchange, weighted by market capitalization. As we announced yesterday, the fund will be rebalanced to include Ethereum Classic, and more assets when they are listed by Coinbase in the future.
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June 14, 2018, 12:37:52 AM

Bob touting the merits of Lightning Network. Get ready for another leg down.
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June 14, 2018, 12:51:17 AM
Merited by paxmao (1), Rosewater Foundation (1), shahzadafzal (1)

I read through the Tether manipulation paper. IMO it made two convincing points:

#1 Someone has a habit of doing this:
 - Issuing new USDT
 - Within days, moving that USDT to BitFinex, Bittrex, and/or Poloniex
 - Using that USDT to buy crypto (seemingly a portfolio of BTC & others). They especially like to buy crypto when the price is just below whole numbers.
 - Moving the resulting crypto back to BitFinex
 - Rarely or never selling the crypto for USDT again
 
The authors argue that this is Tether/BitFinex themselves, and I think that this is in fact the most likely explanation. But the authors didn't address the alternative possibility of this being a particularly ham-fisted whale who is a close partner of Tether.

#2 Due to end-of-month trading, Tether has probably always been trading with USD deposited with them (fractional-reserve), though at least until March 2017, USDT was probably not complete monopoly money, since they did go to the effort of achieving an end-of-month USD balance.

The authors also tried to argue some other points which I didn't find convincing.



I took the paper's data at face value. There were several points where I thought that they could be cherry-picking data, but it's too difficult to check this sort of thing. Cherry-picking / confirmation bias is especially easy to do with block-chain analysis. And I know for a fact that their method of grouping block-chain transactions is not robust in general, though it probably was sufficient for what they did here.

I've thought for a long time that USDT is almost certainly a scam, and this paper makes me think so even more. Though I was actually a little surprised that this provides evidence (via the end-of-month trading) that USDT ever had any real USD.

The paper estimates that if you removed the USDT issuance events which the paper's authors regard as most likely to be BTC price manipulation, the BTC price would be $4100 as of March 31. But that's based on a whole pile of assumptions; I wouldn't give it much credence. I think that the collapse of USDT will be mostly limited to the obvious direct effects (ie. some exchanges would have major troubles, there'd be many people stuck with worthless USDT, etc.), and there would not somehow be a natural "rollback" of any gains which monopoly-money USDT may have driven. Also, the paper makes clear that all major crypto was affected, often much more than BTC, so this isn't any sort of argument against BTC in particular.
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June 14, 2018, 12:53:33 AM

I'm very disheartened today. Lost a major chunk of my bitcoin holdings (almost 0.38 BTC) on Bitmex even though I've been longing since $8000 with just 4x leverage (adding more & more after every dump to average it further down), but still at $6140, I got liquidated. With this, I can pretty much assure that $6140 was actually the bottom. It was only to liquidate me, hard luck. Don't comment that I need to risk only what I can afford to lose, I know that very well, just had some real bad luck (as well as confusion) this time.

what does this mean?

This means:

1. register on Bitmex
2. deposit bitcoin
3. choose at least 10x leverage and go long (right now at $6500)
4. get your bitcoin doubled when bitcoin reaches $7500

I take this advice completely back. I'm not going to open that website ever again. Probably a URL which I'll hate the most after LibertyReserve.com.

As I said before ... you are an excellent contraindication lol
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June 14, 2018, 12:55:45 AM



NEWS FOR YOU     ITS YOUR DATE    Shocked  Roll Eyes  Grin

QUICK list 12288 is finisht GOOD LUCK   WO's

(list snipped)
15/06/2018 d_eddie

Oh really? I gave up on this long ago... removed from my mind.
What was that list about again? Tongue Tongue
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