Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion

[MAbtc]

You've done nothing to prove that monopolies are only possible under government. That's just ancap dogma.

I'm interested in this. Not quite sure who the burden of proof should fall upon here - the one claiming that monopolies are possible only with government or the one claiming monopolies are possible without government. We certainly have lots of cases of monopolies co-existing with government, but I know of no cases of monopolies existing without government. This might primarily be because we have few cases of there being no government, period. Personally I tend to think that the institutionalization of the monopoly on coercive force is quite instrumental in upholding monopolies. I can see them being created without there being a government, but don't see them lasting very long without providing excellent products/services and/or developing government-like qualities themselves. Could you perhaps point me towards some materials supporting your claim that this is just an-cap dogma?

Well, he made the assertion that monopolies are impossible absent government. It seems the burden would be on him.   To suggest an impossibility is also much, much more decisive and precise. My point was more so that ancap theory has no moral opposition to monopoly -- it simply assumes that a purely capitalist market won't let it happen.

Certainly, governments are quite instrumental in upholding monopolies. It's interesting that you mention "developing government-like qualities" because that is indeed a suggestion. Given an uneven distribution of resources, with capital hiring its own armies, I foresee a possibility.

To clarify, I wasn't talking about retail markets, though these cartel arrangements would apply to them as well. Take, for example, Tucker's "Four Monopolies". The issue is more so allocation of scarce resources, and how that can contribute to usury through monopoly in the case of borrowers, renters, workers. Yes, not a popular topic for this forum...

http://dwardmac.pitzer.edu/Anarchist_Archives/proudhon/ProudhonCW.html
http://dwardmac.pitzer.edu/Anarchist_Archives/bright/tucker/works.html

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[billyjoeallen]

Rockefeller didn't gouge his customers because he knew that he wasn't just competing against other oil companies. He was competing against other products such as whale oil and coal. It could even be argued that he is partly responsible for sperm whales not going extinct.

[fonzie]

So when exactly is BTC about to establish real democracy, stop world hunger and bringin peace over us all. This year? Or when it reaches 5000$ I need to know, plz post some date.
Is BTC our saviour? Is the catholic church aware of this?
I´m so excited.

Edit:

Will BTC only change our live if the price goes dramatically up? I´m a bit scared as it doesn´t look like that right now.

[ChartBuddy]

Explanation

[billyjoeallen]

fat lump on 820 btc-e, eep!

wow hadnt noticed....over 900 to break 820 now, 2700 to break 830

yeah looks pretty mean

tidal wave about to hit fishing village

Geez. I've seen that before. Maybe I'll get to use that dry powder after all.

[EuroTrash]

I'm impressed that the market is not reacting at all at the Wells Fargo presentation announcement (which to me is uber bullish). In other times that would have caused a jump of a few percent up...

[hdbuck]

I'm impressed that the market is not reacting at all at the Wells Fargo presentation announcement (which to me is uber bullish). In other times that would have caused a jump of a few percent up...

i guess thats because even though there are a lot of good news recently, the price somehow have already taken them into account.

[spooderman]

I'm impressed that the market is not reacting at all at the Wells Fargo presentation announcement (which to me is uber bullish). In other times that would have caused a jump of a few percent up...

i guess thats because even though there are a lot of good news recently, the price somehow have already taken them into account.

it's weird.. price seems to do whatever it likes right now. kind of a relief tbh.

[dgarcia]

I'm impressed that the market is not reacting at all at the Wells Fargo presentation announcement (which to me is uber bullish). In other times that would have caused a jump of a few percent up...

Seems to me more and more that the market is struggling with itself, nearly independent of external influences. Temporarily absence of trust?

[magicmexican]

looks like only btc-e/stamp and ltc moving, gox is frozen, and so is hyubi

[deeplink]

Well, he made the assertion that monopolies are impossible absent government.

Not exactly:

Private monopolies start to lose market share the moment they exploit their dominant position unless the State prevents them from doing so. Even the most capital-intensive industries see competition. Virgin Galactic is a good example. OTOH, a monopoly may exist if it doesn't exploit it's dominant position, but why would we even care in that case? Competition is there to benefit consumers, not competitors.

To me it seems like he says monopolies are unlikely to exist if they cannot use rules and regulations (i.e. violence) imposed by the State to keep competitors out. And even if they did manage to get a dominant position, it can only be achieved by benefiting their customers, as opposed to by enforcing laws (violence) sanctioned by the State. So why would we care in that case?

[fonzie]

Well, he made the assertion that monopolies are impossible absent government.

Not exactly:

Private monopolies start to lose market share the moment they exploit their dominant position unless the State prevents them from doing so. Even the most capital-intensive industries see competition. Virgin Galactic is a good example. OTOH, a monopoly may exist if it doesn't exploit it's dominant position, but why would we even care in that case? Competition is there to benefit consumers, not competitors.

To me it seems like he says monopolies are unlikely to exist if they cannot use rules and regulations (i.e. violence) imposed by the State to keep competitors out. And even if they did manage to get a dominant position, it can only be achieved by benefiting their customers, as opposed to by enforcing laws (violence) sanctioned by the State. So why would we care in that case?

But couldn´t BTC be even more controlled and regulated than our existing currencies.

[Carra23]

Still not clear to me which way the market is moving. Sold at Btc-e between 880-900 a couple of weeks back. Was hoping for 600s.

[Mythul]

Poor LTC/BTC, that stupid dog is actually a Wolf and LTC the sheep

[EuroTrash]

Still not clear to me which way the market is moving. Sold at Btc-e between 880-900 a couple of weeks back. Was hoping for 600s.

Interesting thing is that most of us expect the market to play like April 2013. That is one of the reasons why it is more likely not to going to repeat itself. It might turn into a much more bullish scenario with no capitulation at all or, viceversa, in a long downward slide* a-la-2011.

* (c) proudhon, I believe.

[seleme]

I'm impressed that the market is not reacting at all at the Wells Fargo presentation announcement (which to me is uber bullish). In other times that would have caused a jump of a few percent up...

i guess thats because even though there are a lot of good news recently, the price somehow have already taken them into account.

it's weird.. price seems to do whatever it likes right now. kind of a relief tbh.

China and January 31st, people are scared. When that shit is finished and we get rid of that fear, I wouldn't be in bears skin who fail to react fast. There is so many good news that when it explode it's going to be an epic one.

[blueberry]

Still not clear to me which way the market is moving. Sold at Btc-e between 880-900 a couple of weeks back. Was hoping for 600s.

I think the market is going to continue to move sideways for a few more weeks. The longer the better. Finding price stability again after a big move up is good.

[electronistul]

China and January 31st, people are scared. When that shit is finished and we get rid of that fear, I wouldn't be in bears skin who fail to react fast. There is so many good news that when it explode it's going to be an epic one.

I'd say we'll see a brief ~20 minutes worth of around $650 on BTC-e right at the end of the month. If you take a look at China's exchanges' websites, they are so silent about anything happening after that - more than that, they are hiring people to help them out, thinking of expanding (take a look at OK Coin's News section). However, Eu and US will turn Bear - a lot, even, but when they realize they dumped coins at 650 and immediately after that it skyrockets to ~2k/BTC, they will get left behind and have no other chance than buying it back at a (hard) loss, or stay forever in fiat money and enjoy their earnings by that point. However, I'd hate to sell at (even) 750, when there is a distinct possibility it shoots up way higher than that short term.

[fonzie]

Woooooohhooooooooooo another 500 BTC dumped on Stamp.

[Ducky1]

Great news from BTC China!

www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1vxvex/great_news_from_btc_china/?utm_medium=twitter&utm_source=Fancy+Show+Tech