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Author Topic: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion  (Read 21435713 times)
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HairyMaclairy
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August 25, 2019, 01:51:29 AM
Last edit: August 25, 2019, 02:40:14 AM by HairyMaclairy


3. The way they truly get you is by taxing gains, but allowing only $3000 per year in losses. This way, you could be in a situation where you pay large gains one year, but are allowed only limited recourse (3K) when you have a large loss. I find this very unfair.

Yes, but any losses that exceed $3K you can roll over YoY.

True, but it is still a limitation as there is no such limit on gains.
It is what it is.


Gents, to provide a little clarity here, the 3k max is for deductions against regular income. So if you have a salary or wages then yes you can only roll over 3k worth of losses as deductions each year and this can be done till you die or run out of losses. But..... for capital gains you can deduct all your capital losses from prior years with no limit whatsoever. The way they fuck you is you could gain a million one year, pay taxes on it then lose a million the first day of the next year and get no refund for the taxes you paid the year prior. You would either have to make another million in capital gains to use those losses as a deduction or you would have to live 333 more years making a salary and writing off 3k each year. The tax man is a real sob. A more fair form of theft would allow you to get a refund for past taxes paid.

That’s why you get a 50% discount on your CGT taxes. For taking that risk.

If you don’t like the risk, structure it as trading income so you can deduct all the losses.  

You get to choose how it is treated if you are smart about it.  You shouldn’t complain about outcomes which are the result of your choices.   
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August 25, 2019, 02:11:02 AM

If you think the tax system is bad now, just wait to see what happens if they ever succeed in forcing their digital only, cashless society, slavery system.  I forget what the percentage is, but people have done studies claiming that no matter how high the govt sets the tax rate at, they DON'T ACTUALLY PULL IN MORE TAXES by doing so.  In other words, even when they set the tax rates to like 90% back in the old days, they were still pulling in the same percentages of income stream as before.

People either get creative in hiding their assets somehow, or they just flat out refuse to pay it.  Govt is a cancer that would grow out of control and take over the entire planet if this was not the case of people having the ability to just flat out boycott the system when it ridicuously oversteps it's bounds.  In a cashless society slavery system like Bitcoin though, govt can just mandate everyone is forced to use only domestic transaction validators, regulate all the giant mining pools, and forcibly extract whatever percentage they want that passes through like a gasoline tax.  There is then no limit whatsoever on govt tyranny and instead of revolution occurring by financial boycott, the govt basically forces kinetic revolution instead.
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August 25, 2019, 03:35:02 AM

If you have 10BTC, you are a Sat billionaire.
JayJuanGee
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August 25, 2019, 03:42:04 AM

If you have 10BTC, you are a Sat billionaire.

How many do you need to be a multi-billionnaire?  What's the entry level to "multi-"?  My tentative guess is minimum would be 30 BTC.  Less than 30 BTC would not be enough, unless exaggeration is involved.
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August 25, 2019, 04:00:10 AM
Last edit: August 25, 2019, 04:12:48 AM by Hueristic

Not that most people here need convincing, but here is a very detailed description of why bitcoin investment is much preferred over alts:

https://medium.com/@damiandurruty/bitcoin-not-ethereum-4d916f519f11

There is a lot of truth in this article.

If you have 10BTC, you are a Sat billionaire.

How many do you need to be a multi-billionnaire?  What's the entry level to "multi-"?  My tentative guess is minimum would be 30 BTC.  Less than 30 BTC would not be enough, unless exaggeration is involved.

2 is multi JJG, I.e more than 1.

Added: must be a multiple of 1 I believe. I did a google to be sure and was surprised to find ambiguous answers abound.
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August 25, 2019, 04:05:04 AM

If you have 10BTC, you are a Sat billionaire.

funny...Circle OTC trade is $100K minimum, which is almost exactly 10 btc.
I wonder if there is a realization that each trade might constitute many $$ millions (if not a cool bil) later on.
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August 25, 2019, 04:21:30 AM

Not that most people here need convincing, but here is a very detailed description of why bitcoin investment is much preferred over alts:

https://medium.com/@damiandurruty/bitcoin-not-ethereum-4d916f519f11

Thanks for sharing, very interesting article, merit to you.
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August 25, 2019, 04:23:31 AM

Not that most people here need convincing, but here is a very detailed description of why bitcoin investment is much preferred over alts:

https://medium.com/@damiandurruty/bitcoin-not-ethereum-4d916f519f11

Thanks for sharing, very interesting article, merit to you.

Sure, I also thought that author (who is an elite programmer) described it all very succinctly.
JayJuanGee
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August 25, 2019, 05:20:25 AM

If you have 10BTC, you are a Sat billionaire.

How many do you need to be a multi-billionnaire?  What's the entry level to "multi-"?  My tentative guess is minimum would be 30 BTC.  Less than 30 BTC would not be enough, unless exaggeration is involved.

2 is multi JJG, I.e more than 1.

Added: must be a multiple of 1 I believe. I did a google to be sure and was surprised to find ambiguous answers abound.

Well, i kind of suspected that the concept of multi- was ambiguous, and that is why I was a bit more conservative in my own accepted definition, which requires three....  Tongue Tongue Tongue


Right now, with current BTC prices floating around $10k, you would be floating around BTC millionnaire status with 100 BTC.  However, I would argue that you need  300 BTC, at this particular price range to proclaim multi-milliionnaire status (in terms of your BTC holdings), without engaging in exaggeration.

I understand that guys are going to differ in this matter, and I personally give more credibility to more conservative assertions.
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August 25, 2019, 05:58:53 AM
Last edit: August 25, 2019, 06:35:41 AM by VB1001
Merited by Icygreen (1), fillippone (1), SuperTA (1)

Bitcoin is Not Too Slow

Quote
Bitcoin ≠ Visa

Ultimately, bitcoin is not competing with Visa for supremacy in global payments. Instead, bitcoin is competing with the dollar, euro, yen and gold as money, and any comparison to Visa, its transaction volume or transaction speed is fundamentally flawed. Bitcoin fulfills the role of currency issuer and final settlement. As a result, the proper comparison would be between bitcoin and the Fed as currency issuer and as a clearing mechanism. No one makes the mistake of confusing the functions of Visa for that of the New York Fed, but for some reason, the comparison is often made between Visa and bitcoin.

While it would require time and investment, Visa’s payment network could sit on top of the bitcoin network to fulfill payments much the same way it sits on top of the existing banking system. Rather than clearing the currency through a central bank, final settlement of transactions would clear through the bitcoin network. In the existing architecture, the payments layer (Visa) and the settlement layer (banking network/central banks) are separate and distinct. The principal problem bitcoin intends to solve has little to do with the former, but instead, with the mechanism by which currency is issued and cleared (think the Fed and QE). Visa helps move dollars but Visa is not the dollar. It is a technology company that provides a service; it has 17,000 employees. Bitcoin has none.

Whether credit or debit, Visa is an inherently trust-based credit system. While consumers generally associate swiping a Visa card (or the equivalent) at a point of sale terminal as payment, it really is not. Instead, balances are checked, transactions are authorized and settlement occurs later. Dollars are not actually cleared through a central bank or settled at the point of sale every time a transaction is processed. Individual transactions are also never really cleared. Instead, transactions are batched together, netted and settled at a later point in time; only then are accounts credited with proper balances. So when someone attempts to equate a Visa transaction with final settlement, that is just not the way the world works. But that is the comparison that is implicitly being made when someone attempts to compare Visa with bitcoin.

https://www.unchained-capital.com/blog/bitcoin-is-not-too-slow/

Good morning WO,s good article, with more interesting points:

Quote
Bitcoin fixes this
Not a Payments Rail
Security Trade-offs
Bitcoin ≠ Visa
Bitcoin vs. the Federal Reserve
Scaling Bitcoin is 1 to n
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August 25, 2019, 06:25:09 AM


3. The way they truly get you is by taxing gains, but allowing only $3000 per year in losses. This way, you could be in a situation where you pay large gains one year, but are allowed only limited recourse (3K) when you have a large loss. I find this very unfair.

Yes, but any losses that exceed $3K you can roll over YoY.

True, but it is still a limitation as there is no such limit on gains.
It is what it is.


Gents, to provide a little clarity here, the 3k max is for deductions against regular income. So if you have a salary or wages then yes you can only roll over 3k worth of losses as deductions each year and this can be done till you die or run out of losses. But..... for capital gains you can deduct all your capital losses from prior years with no limit whatsoever. The way they fuck you is you could gain a million one year, pay taxes on it then lose a million the first day of the next year and get no refund for the taxes you paid the year prior. You would either have to make another million in capital gains to use those losses as a deduction or you would have to live 333 more years making a salary and writing off 3k each year. The tax man is a real sob. A more fair form of theft would allow you to get a refund for past taxes paid.

That’s why you get a 50% discount on your CGT taxes. For taking that risk.

If you don’t like the risk, structure it as trading income so you can deduct all the losses.  

You get to choose how it is treated if you are smart about it.  You shouldn’t complain about outcomes which are the result of your choices.  

Who is complaining about an outcome? Its a hypothetical, not an irl experience. The "tax man is an sob" is a statement of fact, not a complaint.  Cheesy

I think you are misunderstanding something Im saying also, bc as far as not liking the risk and structuring the income as trading income so you can deduct losses, well you can deduct all capital losses whether you declare yourself an investor or a trader. Thats what ive been talking about all along. Status declaration does not give or take away this ability, its built in for everyone. What neither a trader or investor can do is use a capital loss to get a rebate on past taxes paid. This imo is unfair to people who might find themselves in this situation. These could also be people who sold a house, land, or business at a large loss but had large cap gains they paid taxes on the year before. It applies to all capital losses as far as I know unless you have new info for me.
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August 25, 2019, 06:25:40 AM
Last edit: August 25, 2019, 07:33:34 AM by fillippone
Merited by micgoossens (5), bones261 (2)

Hello WO!
Observing PlanB back from his month long holidays and posting good bullish charts:

https://twitter.com/100trillionusd/status/1165350490198237184?s=21
Quote

#bitcoin halving chart update: 9 months to go!

2012 halving: t-9 BTC $5 -> t=0 $12
2016 halving: t-9 BTC $314 -> t=0 $627
2020 halving: t-9 BTC $10,100 -> t=0 $...

HairyMaclairy
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August 25, 2019, 06:29:14 AM


3. The way they truly get you is by taxing gains, but allowing only $3000 per year in losses. This way, you could be in a situation where you pay large gains one year, but are allowed only limited recourse (3K) when you have a large loss. I find this very unfair.

Yes, but any losses that exceed $3K you can roll over YoY.

True, but it is still a limitation as there is no such limit on gains.
It is what it is.


Gents, to provide a little clarity here, the 3k max is for deductions against regular income. So if you have a salary or wages then yes you can only roll over 3k worth of losses as deductions each year and this can be done till you die or run out of losses. But..... for capital gains you can deduct all your capital losses from prior years with no limit whatsoever. The way they fuck you is you could gain a million one year, pay taxes on it then lose a million the first day of the next year and get no refund for the taxes you paid the year prior. You would either have to make another million in capital gains to use those losses as a deduction or you would have to live 333 more years making a salary and writing off 3k each year. The tax man is a real sob. A more fair form of theft would allow you to get a refund for past taxes paid.

That’s why you get a 50% discount on your CGT taxes. For taking that risk.

If you don’t like the risk, structure it as trading income so you can deduct all the losses.  

You get to choose how it is treated if you are smart about it.  You shouldn’t complain about outcomes which are the result of your choices.  

Who is complaining about an outcome? Its a hypothetical, not an irl experience. The "tax man is an sob" is a statement of fact, not a complaint.  Cheesy

I think you are misunderstanding something Im saying also, bc as far as not liking the risk and structuring the income as trading income so you can deduct losses, well you can deduct all capital losses whether you declare yourself an investor or a trader. Thats what ive been talking about all along. Status declaration does not give or take away this ability, its built in for everyone. What neither a trader or investor can do is use a capital loss to get a rebate on past taxes paid. This imo is unfair to people who might find themselves in this situation. These could also be people who sold a house, land, or business at a large loss but had large cap gains they paid taxes on the year before. It applies to all capital losses as far as I know unless you have new info for me.

Dude if you have an income loss you can’t get a rebate on past income tax paid either.  That’s just the way the world works. It’s not inherently unfair. 

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August 25, 2019, 06:57:50 AM
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3. The way they truly get you is by taxing gains, but allowing only $3000 per year in losses. This way, you could be in a situation where you pay large gains one year, but are allowed only limited recourse (3K) when you have a large loss. I find this very unfair.

Yes, but any losses that exceed $3K you can roll over YoY.

True, but it is still a limitation as there is no such limit on gains.
It is what it is.


Gents, to provide a little clarity here, the 3k max is for deductions against regular income. So if you have a salary or wages then yes you can only roll over 3k worth of losses as deductions each year and this can be done till you die or run out of losses. But..... for capital gains you can deduct all your capital losses from prior years with no limit whatsoever. The way they fuck you is you could gain a million one year, pay taxes on it then lose a million the first day of the next year and get no refund for the taxes you paid the year prior. You would either have to make another million in capital gains to use those losses as a deduction or you would have to live 333 more years making a salary and writing off 3k each year. The tax man is a real sob. A more fair form of theft would allow you to get a refund for past taxes paid.

That’s why you get a 50% discount on your CGT taxes. For taking that risk.

If you don’t like the risk, structure it as trading income so you can deduct all the losses.  

You get to choose how it is treated if you are smart about it.  You shouldn’t complain about outcomes which are the result of your choices.  

Who is complaining about an outcome? Its a hypothetical, not an irl experience. The "tax man is an sob" is a statement of fact, not a complaint.  Cheesy

I think you are misunderstanding something Im saying also, bc as far as not liking the risk and structuring the income as trading income so you can deduct losses, well you can deduct all capital losses whether you declare yourself an investor or a trader. Thats what ive been talking about all along. Status declaration does not give or take away this ability, its built in for everyone. What neither a trader or investor can do is use a capital loss to get a rebate on past taxes paid. This imo is unfair to people who might find themselves in this situation. These could also be people who sold a house, land, or business at a large loss but had large cap gains they paid taxes on the year before. It applies to all capital losses as far as I know unless you have new info for me.

Dude if you have an income loss you can’t get a rebate on past income tax paid either.  That’s just the way the world works. It’s not inherently unfair. 



Sorry HM, as much as I like you and your charts an fractals, I have to point out you are completely wrong here. You can indeed get a refund or rebate on past income tax paid. That is how it works and it is blatantly unfair in my judgement. The IRS calls it a "loss carryback".



https://www.thebalancesmb.com/business-losses-to-offset-income-397687

"Determining Net Operating Loss
Your total income and losses from all business and personal sources are collected on your personal tax return. A net operating loss can be calculated, using specific IRS methods. If you have a net operating loss, you may be able to get a refund on your personal tax return.

Net operating loss is calculated by using Adjusted Gross Income on line 37 of Form 1040 and subtracting standard or itemized deductions, but not subtracting personal exemptions. More details on net operating loss are available in IRS Publication 536.

Net operating loss is calculated on Schedule A of IRS Form 1045 (PDF). The title of this form includes the term "Tentative Refund." This refund is a requirement that you move the loss to a previous tax year in which you had a profit. It is called a "loss carryback" (described below)."

"Deducting Losses in Past or Future Years
If you have business losses that are not deductible in the year when you have the loss, you may be required to or choose to deduct these losses in past or future years. It is called a tax loss carryback or loss carry forward, and again, it's something you must get a tax professional to help you with."
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August 25, 2019, 07:24:38 AM
Merited by micgoossens (3)

Oh wow.  I stand corrected.

Have never heard of a loss carry back.  

Thank you - you taught me something today.

I withdraw my prior comments.
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August 25, 2019, 07:30:44 AM

Oh wow.  I stand corrected.

Have never heard of a loss carry back.  

Thank you - you taught me something today.

I withdraw my prior comments.

Your welcome my very gracious friend.  Smiley I learned more than I wanted about the insanely complex tax code as an entrepreneur.
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August 25, 2019, 07:45:21 AM
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...
The consolidation might take a bit longer ...

Interesting find, mindrust. But ATH before halving is impossible, isn't it? So I would extend everything on the time axis.

Wow in BTC that word...... Roll Eyes
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August 25, 2019, 07:59:40 AM

Get ready for the Sunday pump gentlemen  Cool
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August 25, 2019, 08:00:55 AM
Last edit: August 25, 2019, 08:24:56 AM by ivomm
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If you have 10BTC, you are a Sat billionaire.

How many do you need to be a multi-billionnaire?  What's the entry level to "multi-"?  My tentative guess is minimum would be 30 BTC.  Less than 30 BTC would not be enough, unless exaggeration is involved.

2 is multi JJG, I.e more than 1.

Added: must be a multiple of 1 I believe. I did a google to be sure and was surprised to find ambiguous answers abound.

Well, i kind of suspected that the concept of multi- was ambiguous, and that is why I was a bit more conservative in my own accepted definition, which requires three....  Tongue Tongue Tongue


Right now, with current BTC prices floating around $10k, you would be floating around BTC millionnaire status with 100 BTC.  However, I would argue that you need  300 BTC, at this particular price range to proclaim multi-milliionnaire status (in terms of your BTC holdings), without engaging in exaggeration.

I understand that guys are going to differ in this matter, and I personally give more credibility to more conservative assertions.
I've always thought that a multimillionaire is a person that has a net worth more than 2 million units of currency, i.e. $2.1 mil. There is a website dedicated to such questions: https://multimillionaire.askdefine.com/.
By BTC millionaire, JJG you mean actually a USD millionaire  Wink

Speaking of this price $10K, I think it is a bit unfortunate that average Joes see it as a high price and they don't want to buy beyond it. Even my father, who supports me in everything, says to me: Who will buy above 10K? It is too expensive. I tell him and everyone else that the unit is of no importance. What if the current Bitcoin was called a mini Bitcoin and 100 mini Bitcoins one Bitcoin? The price would be $1 mil! But the market cap would be the same. The current market cap is still very low for a world known asset. And it has the potential to reach and surpass gold's cap. It is a bit unfortunate that average Joes don't get the concept and see this price as too high. I guess this is one of the reasons the number of drops under 10K is so high in the last months. Of course with time the scarcity will push the trades beyond such psychological barriers (10K, 50K, 100K).  It would be very exciting to know what will be the price in 5 years, after 2 halvings!  If the first halving bull run doesn't get us above 50K, then the next surely will get us above 100K. The question is who will wait and suffer all the drama until then  Grin
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August 25, 2019, 08:09:06 AM



Good morning everyone!

Gold/Btc (Gold/XBT) Chart

Bitcoin is outperforming Gold.
 https://twitter.com/Bitcoin/status/1165380248591974400
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