Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion

[empowering]

Thing is, things develop and things change, so I do not imagine the deed issue being around for too long... and there are workable workarounds, for example, in the US at the moment you are correct re the deeds they cannot currently be linked to NFTs (yet) .... however what can and had been done is that the property (if we are talking real estate) , is first transferred into a LLC, and then the company, is then minted to a NFT, and it is this company that is bought or sold, and rights to the company (and therefore the property are stored on the blockchain)

.... and I think there is a good chance that this space will continue to evolve.


There are also solutions for tokenised/nft for equity release from properties too.. which again has the potential to evolve going forward.

....and as mentioned in previous post, I am pretty sure that we will be seeing this within the art collection industry too, and possibly wine also.


....could all this be done using tokens/smart contracts and sans "NFTs"  yeah totally..

NFTs and a blockchain don't add anything useful or missing to any of those scenarios you mentioned, because the existing, legally-binding ownership laws, contract laws, deeds, etc. already cover it and cover it well.

So again, the point of NFTs then? A solution looking for a problem that doesn't exist.

Welll sorta, using blockchains/smart contracts , could streamline and speed up the entire process (instant settlement, in a world that is moving more and more to instant gratification) as real estate transactions can be notoriously slow, when they do not have to be.

 Also, over my side of the pond at least, deed transfer companies and the like have been ordered to "come up to speed" in terms of usability/ease of use/speed AND COST! , so there is a entrenched set of actors within this aspect and all aspects of real estate , that are ripe for the pickings in terms of disintermediation....

Also tokenisation one way or another of property (assets in general) allow also the ability for fractionalised ownership/investment/equity release of property, or at least has the potential to make it easier.

I mean, banking also has and had established players, laws regulations too.... and had not innovated for many many decades, but the box needed shaking... and if anything the current status quo of real estate transactions, is even more archaic and even slower, than banking is, and that is saying something.

Things change and things evolve.

Market will tell us going forward if this happens or not...


I try not to think in absolutes  

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[Dabs]

I think the point is that for now, these registers for property are simply databases or records, centralized and can mostly be accessed by anyone. Sometimes they are online, sometimes they are hardcopy (paper only) for some really old records that have not yet been computerized, and this can be seen in ancient records in some countries.

I know for example, my mother-in-laws birth certificate was not in their database, so she had to file for something called "late registration", and that's for something as recent as within the years 1940 to 1950. There are many cases like this that I have seen, even some as young or same age as me, because they are born in a different hospital or jurisdiction that did not have computers and everything was hand-written, and those original documents got lost, burned, damaged or whatever.

Eventually, they will be on some public or government website, and maybe from there they might transition to blockchains, and that's where these NFTs come in. How they are treated legally will take some time, just like how court cases involving evidence have evolved to allow DNA, and marks on bullets/casings for firearms related cases, and now they might even accept video or photos as evidence, provided they are proven not tampered or photoshopped or deep faked.

They took decades to digitize stuff, they will probably wait a few more years before anything happens.

[philipma1957]

I mean a NFT that represents a real world asset is sorta more interesting......

Is it now?

Here is my NFT for sale for a 1000g gold bar. I'll even sell it to for 20% off of spot price....

I think your missing the point.  Nft as a public register for land/property etc can be very useful

No, it can't. Just saying that doesn't make it true.

Because a legal property deed is legally binding and can be defended in a court of law.

An NFT is not "useful". At all. Period. It does not give the owner any exclusive legal rights to the thing it points to, and cannot be legally defended in a court of law.

If anyone is missing the point, it is not me.

Andy Warhol and his campbell soup series was the grandfather of nfts he mus be laugh 😹 ing in his grave.

[ChartBuddy]

Explanation

[Arriemoller]

This war has been an eye opener for me in many ways.
I did my military service in 1980-81 in the coastal artillery regiment 3 (KA3) on the island of Gotland, the closest we had to the Soviet /Warsaw pact border.
I served in something called ”rörlig spärrbataljon” I don’t know how to really translate that, but it would be something like ”mobile stopping batalion”. Our job was to, together with other parts of the armed forces, stop a soviet invasion, in our case to shoot and sink the soviet landing ships coming at us from the Warsaw pact.
We had some damn good cannons to do that with, and I was manning a AA gun unit whose job it was to provide close air security for those cannons.

In 1992 I was recruited to the then newly formed Marine Home Guard.
My job would be to do what I was to do in case of war, namely manning a AA gun unit, in a ”Fast spärrbataljon” that translates to something like ”fixed stopping batalion”. Basically the same as before but not mobile. By that time the warsaw pact was no more and the only remaining enemy was the Russian Federation, however, in my mind, and in many peoples minds, that pretty much still equated to the old soviet union/Warsaw pact, it was just some kind of default setting in our brains.

And that default setting didn’t change until the Russians attacked Ukraine and I started really looking at the map and realized that Russia only has one port from where they can do a landing operation on Sweden and that is Königsberg/Kaliningrad, instead of all the Baltic states, Poland and East Gemany as it used to be.

The cannons were scrapped when the Swedish government decided, around 2000 that the eternal peace had come, and the coast was defended by missiles instead, namely the Rbs 15.
As it dawned on the government that Russia had not turned in to a peaceful democracy more and better missiles were made.
And what I finally realized was that we now have enough of these missiles to sink every landing ship and escort that that the russians can send towards us from Kaliningrad.

And with an air force about the size of the Ukrainian air force and 30 planes in storage, but with much better jets and state of the art missiles, especially the Meteor, the Russian air force in this region would not be a big problem for us.

In other words, I have recently realized that Russia is not a real threat to Sweden, and that feels good.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RBS_15

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meteor_(missile)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish_Coastal_Artillery#Cold_War

[Torque]

I think the point is that for now, these registers for property are simply databases or records, centralized and can mostly be accessed by anyone. Sometimes they are online, sometimes they are hardcopy (paper only) for some really old records that have not yet been computerized, and this can be seen in ancient records in some countries.

I know for example, my mother-in-laws birth certificate was not in their database, so she had to file for something called "late registration", and that's for something as recent as within the years 1940 to 1950. There are many cases like this that I have seen, even some as young or same age as me, because they are born in a different hospital or jurisdiction that did not have computers and everything was hand-written, and those original documents got lost, burned, damaged or whatever.

Eventually, they will be on some public or government website, and maybe from there they might transition to blockchains, and that's where these NFTs come in. How they are treated legally will take some time, just like how court cases involving evidence have evolved to allow DNA, and marks on bullets/casings for firearms related cases, and now they might even accept video or photos as evidence, provided they are proven not tampered or photoshopped or deep faked.

They took decades to digitize stuff, they will probably wait a few more years before anything happens.

Even if certain entities like govt offices start using an NFT/blockchain behind the scenes as a form of back office recordkeeping, who tf cares? What's the big deal? You'll still need to show ID, fill out digital paperwork or contracts, pay fees, have lawyers look it over, and endure waiting periods, all to get legal entitlement to the "thing". An NFT/blockchain won't change that process or make it easier/more efficient for the end user.

This whole idea of a future world where you'll buy a piece of real estate, a company, or get a divorce with a "single click of a mouse", get instant settlement and the NFT is all you will ever need, is a fantasy at best, and complete delusion at worst. The idea of a single global, centralized blockchain-driven NFT database for everything that is legally defensible is even more laughable.

Also, all the govt, corporate, legal, and other intermediaries that get fees to process all this stuff, have a vested interest in the status quo process. Because money. That will NEVER change, ever. If anything, it is likely to get worse. They will wring every dime they can out of the existing process, and even a new or modified process involving a blockchain.

[empowering]

https://jshee.substack.com/p/how-crypto-is-transforming-the-real?s=r

Blockchain based REIT anyone?

Not the worst read

[empowering]

Also, all the govt, corporate, legal, and other intermediaries that get fees to process all this stuff, have a vested interest in the status quo process. Because money. That will NEVER change, ever. If anything, it is likely to get worse. They will wring every dime they can out of the existing process.

Until they figure out that it can shave their margins too and enable them to make even more money....

https://hmlandregistry.blog.gov.uk/2019/05/24/could-blockchain-be-the-future-of-the-property-market/

(ps same goes for other player in the real estate industry, from developers to investors)


pps "To demonstrate the benefits of a fully distributed network, we worked with leading conveyancing firms Mishcon de Reya and MyHomeMove, payment intermediary Shieldpay, digital identity provider Yoti and HM Revenue & Customs to build an end-to-end proof of concept. We also created a simple mobile interface for the buyer and seller so they could complete their actions on their mobile phones, such as verifying their identity and signing their agreements. All we needed then was a real life property transaction to test the prototype"


ppps "The first digital transfer
On 6 March 2019 the sale of a recently refurbished, semi-detached house in Gillingham had completed. It had taken 22 weeks, much longer than the six weeks the buyer and seller had expected. In early April we sat down with all the parties involved to see how much time it would take to run the sale and purchase through our blockchain prototype.

We used a video chat to bring everyone together. The buyer, Peter, was at work in Medway and his conveyancer was in Manchester. The seller, Stefan, was in his partner’s home in Gravesend and his conveyancer was in central London. The Digital Street team were in Plymouth, with representatives from Yoti in London and Shieldpay calling in from Malaga, Spain. Once each action had completed (such as drafting the sales agreement) the application automatically informed the next party it was their turn to act. The demonstration of the technology ran through, end to end, in less than 10 minutes."

pppps Her Majesty's Land Registration here in the UK is where the buck stops, and from my understanding they are still actively working with companies to bring the whole process here "up to speed" in terms of cost and ease of use/accessibility , and I expect them to continue to do so..... will blockchains and NFTs have a role to play and gain traction going forward... perhaps , time will tell


ppppps - 10 minutes is better than 22 weeks, or 6 weeks.

[aysg76]

A picture which speaks the true reality and thousands words if you are understanding how the hell idealogy of the people has changed over the years about bitcoin inspite of many talking shit about it knowing nothing:



The fees and speed issues are solved by the LN channels and bitcoin capacity is increasing day by day with increased adoption but still if you belong to that group of people saying btc is dead and will not surge then you are on the wrong planet and maybe when Musk will colonize Mars doge and shitcoins can be used 

[ChartBuddy]

Explanation

[Cosmic Beyonders]

Source : https://cointelegraph.com/news/bitcoin-institutional-buying-could-be-big-narrative-again-as-30k-btc-leaves-coinbase?utm_source=Telegram&utm_medium=social

[jojo69]

https://news.bitcoin.com/fumb-games-mobile-app-bitcoin-miner-integrates-real-btc-rewards-via-zebedee/

North Korean hackers target gamers in $615m crypto heist

[Torque]

Also, all the govt, corporate, legal, and other intermediaries that get fees to process all this stuff, have a vested interest in the status quo process. Because money. That will NEVER change, ever. If anything, it is likely to get worse. They will wring every dime they can out of the existing process.

Until they figure out that it can shave their margins too and enable them to make even more money....

https://hmlandregistry.blog.gov.uk/2019/05/24/could-blockchain-be-the-future-of-the-property-market/

(ps same goes for other player in the real estate industry, from developers to investors)


pps "To demonstrate the benefits of a fully distributed network, we worked with leading conveyancing firms Mishcon de Reya and MyHomeMove, payment intermediary Shieldpay, digital identity provider Yoti and HM Revenue & Customs to build an end-to-end proof of concept. We also created a simple mobile interface for the buyer and seller so they could complete their actions on their mobile phones, such as verifying their identity and signing their agreements. All we needed then was a real life property transaction to test the prototype"


ppps "The first digital transfer
On 6 March 2019 the sale of a recently refurbished, semi-detached house in Gillingham had completed. It had taken 22 weeks, much longer than the six weeks the buyer and seller had expected. In early April we sat down with all the parties involved to see how much time it would take to run the sale and purchase through our blockchain prototype.

We used a video chat to bring everyone together. The buyer, Peter, was at work in Medway and his conveyancer was in Manchester. The seller, Stefan, was in his partner’s home in Gravesend and his conveyancer was in central London. The Digital Street team were in Plymouth, with representatives from Yoti in London and Shieldpay calling in from Malaga, Spain. Once each action had completed (such as drafting the sales agreement) the application automatically informed the next party it was their turn to act. The demonstration of the technology ran through, end to end, in less than 10 minutes."

pppps Her Majesty's Land Registration here in the UK is where the buck stops, and from my understanding they are still actively working with companies to bring the whole process here "up to speed" in terms of cost and ease of use/accessibility , and I expect them to continue to do so..... will blockchains and NFTs have a role to play and gain traction going forward... perhaps , time will tell


ppppps - 10 minutes is better than 22 weeks, or 6 weeks.

Psssst... you can do all of that with a database and a streamlined digital process. NFTs/blockchain don't change or enable anything.  

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hey, speaking of streamlining processes:

As I sit here and contemplate the umpteenth Amazon package of mine that either got lost in the mail, or delayed by several days.

I'm reminded of that time at band camp when Jeff Bozos promised the world guaranteed 12-hour same day package delivery, and life-critical pharmaceutical 1-hour delivery by drone.

[ChartBuddy]

Explanation

[empowering]

Psssst... you can do all of that with a database and a streamlined digital process. NFTs/blockchain don't change or enable anything.  

Well, sorta, but the very government agency who are charged with managing the land registry in the UK, and the HMRC, and many of the big players involved in the industry,  (who you earlier eluded would have nothing to gain from it and would never allow it) are in fact actively building out exactly that, using blockchain (no mention of NFTs YET)

There is a reason for that.

If I had to guess, the reason would be , that due to the nature of the transaction, and the multiple actors involved, that, from a legal standpoint, they prefer the immutability and distributed nature of a blockchain rather than a leaky old centralised system, which could potentially be gamed with more ease.  Not to mention, that there would also be a greater potential for interoperability going forward.


Personally, I would not be at all surprised, to see blockchains, and perhaps NFTs, utilised for this, and for many many other use cases...... by companies and government agencies alike.

Again, I try not to think in absolutes, and I am not married to the concept... I just do not think people realise how far advanced this already is.... and I do not think that is just pie in the sky and never going to happen...

If anything..... I think it is (almost) inevitable really

ps (and not just land registry, but conveyancing, legal, ID, taxation, lending, equity release, development funding, mortgages, contracts, buying/selling...the whole shebang and all eventually interoperable )  

[empowering]

Hey, speaking of streamlining processes:

As I sit here and contemplate the umpteenth Amazon package of mine that either got lost in the mail, or delayed by several days.

I'm reminded of that time at band camp when Jeff Bozos promised the world guaranteed 12-hour same day package delivery, and life-critical pharmaceutical 1-hour delivery by drone.

I hear that!

Where I live, before the Rona virus lockdowns and supply chain issues, and due to being within a few hours of a Amazon depot, we could get same day deliveries on certain products from Amazon... now its more like next day/24 hour.

What is mental though, is just how ubiquitous Amazon delivery has become its not uncommon to see a delivery being made to my house, and to my neighbours and then a house a few houses down all in one go.... and the grey vans are everywhere, whereas the red "Royal mail" vans which used to be everywhere, I now see far far less.


Still waiting for the drone deliveries thou' Imma not holding my breath

[JayJuanGee]

Jay. I think you are doing some metaverse nonsense bullsh!t contest. And you are fighting for dominance on your 'debate contest' with any mad enough willing contender at your 'insanity games' of posting till the end of times of the endless posts. And I think you get off of it.    

Of course, your concise and digging insights are quite valued in these here parts, especially since you articulate so clearly and convincingly.  

I feel so badly that you are able to see right through me.

 

I'm wondering 'how would you be feeling inside' when your new chew toy 'empowering' gets bored, an with his batteries full of the W.O. dementia.     .. Cuz you do know that for now he feels a bit lonely, and he is giving you extra attention, he seems to be back from some sort of 1-2 years vacation and he has time to spare, nerves to kill, and inner loneliness to cure.    

Ok... I will bite.

He was gone for 3 years... so yeah, maybe he is back this time and smarter about bitcoin.

We cannot necessarily know why members choose to engage in the way that they do.. but I do know that he largely just kept saying whatever he wanted to say, and acted like he had not even read my text.. so does not inspire a whole hell of a lot of confidence in me when members try to act like they are arguing substantively with another member and then failing/refusing to even attempt to address substantive points that were raised.. trolls do that.. but also lazy and disingenuine folks do that too.

I am not even going to necessarily conclude that empowering is a troll or disingenuine at this point, but instead that he is just letting emotions direct how he has chosen to interact, so far.

Also, it is not really that big of a deal for me, and yeah some members might get pissed off at me because they might believe that I am scaring away possibly good participating members, and surely I appreciate members who have differing views from my own, so I am not really wanting to scare away empowering, even if he might have questionable levels of stamina to continue to participate... I think let the chips fall where they will, and it is up to empowering if he wants to continue to participate, and yeah, I understand that sometimes people might well have a lot of stressful stuff going on in their personal lives.. so in that regard, each of us still have responsibilities over our own sanity and/or physical well-being in terms of deciding how much to participate in a forum/thread like this and whether we are getting what we need or want out of our participation herein.

Even you, Save the RF have had extended periods of absence from this thread, but you have been hanging out pretty consistently with us (and a lot of your gobble-dee-gook variance of posts) for a decent amount of time, recently.. has it been 6 months of pretty consistent hanging out with us?  lucky us to have you here, no?  You are like one of the main staples of incoherent garble that might even make a point or two, from time to time, no?

 

Just don't pray on the weak man. ..

I would not assume that he is weak, and you spelt "prey" wrong... but even if he is, then he will need to make a choice about his own participation in terms of whether it is good for himself or not.

There are like over 30K pages of talks about BTCiTcoin.

30k pages, and you still have not learned how to spell, either... I know that you are purposefully fucking around with the bitcoin spelling in order to stir shit.. so whatever.

Also no new information or development has occurred within the blockchain network or the too much sparkle in the core wallet. Most of the developments are others with their companies that try to interact with the network.

You really believe that shit that you are saying?  Bitcoin has ongoing development on the mainchain and on lightning network and various other developments. Sure, if you are trying to make some kind of compare and contrast to some of the excitement of various other projects that are ongoingly scamming people, maybe bitcoin looks boring in comparison.. and if you actually think about it, maybe there remains some advantages to the ongoing relative "boringness" of bitcoin.  Tick tock the next block, and hashpower remains at all time highs.. amazing levels of ongoing mining coming into the bitcoin space... and even if there was a 1.26% drop in difficulty level in the last difficulty adjustment, there is no doubt that bitcoin's hashing power is ongoingly going up.. even with some of the challenges within the Chinese jurisdiction last year that have not completely gone away in terms of a pretty BIG nation state that still seems to be wanting to strategize in terms of playing some level of hardball with bitcoin, and seems to be hurting the nation-state (referring to China) and its people more than it is having any kind of meaningful negative effect on bitcoin  - because bitcoin just seems to adapt.. and probably scares the shit out of any jurisdiction trying to figure out how to challenge bitcoin's ongoing high hashrate.

I mean, for now you are fine. Maybe tomorrow 'empowering' gets bored, a new contest with a new attention seeking 'newb' emerges.

I make choices regarding how much to respond to any member, and surely, even I have a life outside of the thread, so sometimes I end up making choices regarding whether or how much to respond, too.

I am not going to play along with you regarding your seemingly lame-ass theory that I get pleasures out of being mean to other members (or that I have some kind of a power play going on), beyond just acknowledging that you have been making that point.. which is a kind of white knighting support of empowering's recent whinenings, too.   

But on the long term, you will find yourself out in 20 years older, still on this forum and banging the cann along the road with the newest newbie member you encounter.

I can ONLY hope to still be alive in 20 years... sad that we have our limits in our meat vehicles... and we all have hope too.. By the way, this thread is on its 9 year birthday tomorrow... so we have already had a pretty good run in this thread... and hopefully we are going to be able to get another 9 years without imploding... or losing out to apathy, right?

In some sense if bitcoin continues to be successful, maybe we just lose our attention to bitcoin topics, because bitcoin just "is" ..

Is your time not precious?? Or do you imagine some sort of AI in the future replicating your 'khan-risma' and to get rid and belittle any new comer that wants to challenge the 'Wall' for knowledge??

Seems like you are repeating ur lil selfie.. because I already answered this.  Each of us make choices how to spend time, whether posting here or otherwise.  Just because I have been participating in this thread (in whatever way that I have been) for the past 8 years does not necessarily mean that I am going to continue to participate.. but for now, it seems to be working.. maybe you don't like it and maybe there are other members who do not like it.. Each person has to decide for himself/herself regarding level of participation, and that is not necessarily going to be a static question.  Even if you keep asking this same seemingly lame question, you know that too, right?

In some way, this feels like some trippy sh!t, but sometimes it just makes sense.    
(sry for the daily dose of shrinking I keep laying on you, it keeps happening and to dunno for what purpose, I don't might not see to know yet.)          

Whether it makes you feel better or not to ask the questions, I don't know.  You likely realize that members are ONLY go so far in terms of responding to those kinds of questions, and I probably responded enough - even though to the extent that you are genuine and not merely engaging in gratuitous shit-stirring, you would likely prefer more specifics that I see little to no reason to provide, at least not at this time.

[Toxic2040]

[BitcoinBunny]

So who run Twitter Bartertown? Who run Bartertown?

The elites know. But does the Joe Shmoe public know?

* Remember kids Putin is the only bad man. Zelensky is the hero we should all admire.

* Let's enjoy kicking balls in Qatar later this year. Nothing to worry about at all. This great footballing nation won the hosting of the World Cup legally.

* January 6th was terrible. When people are outraged they should only be able to burn down the local high street, not take it out on the people making terrible decisions, how double DARE they!

* Rishi Sunak is a FANTASTIC chancellor of the exchequer here in the UK and totally not doing his job just as a hobby or JUST for control. His billionaire wife claiming non dom status is perfectly reasonable.

* Hunter Biden's laptop was just a nothing burger. He's a great man. We should all admire him.

* Did you get your 4th Covid booster yet? Better lock down that Chinese city. It's only been 2 years, we should try zero covid some more.

 

[ChartBuddy]

Explanation