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Author Topic: The 'Voluntarism can't provide Essential Services' Argument  (Read 9639 times)
billyjoeallen
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June 17, 2011, 01:59:07 AM
 #41

"Both parties are bound; it's called the law, it applies to everyone, government included."

when I steal it's theft. When government steals, it's taxation

when I kidnap, it's a felony. When the State kidnaps, it's an arrest

when I force people to work for me, it's slavery. When the State does it, it's the Draft, selective service, conscription, whatever.

The state doesn't obey the same rules at all. it breaks the rules and gives it's violations different names.

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June 17, 2011, 01:59:36 AM
 #42

Sovereign countries don't exist. It's central banks all the way down. Whoever owns the money, owns the game. There is no possibility for competition on a political level with this current state-of-affairs.
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June 17, 2011, 02:02:20 AM
 #43


And you're damn right it justifies whatever law the society sees fit, which is why its called a social contract.  If you don't like it, change it.  If you can't change it peacefully, change it violently - such is history and human nature.

In this society, you're forced to pay your taxes because someone along the way was smart enough to make payment for social programs manditory.  Deal with it, or else.  And, yes, that or else is perfectly acceptable because violence is the only way ANYTHING is enforced, so cut the shit with this shooting old ladies rhetoric.

Even if we assumed that we did agree to a social contract (we didn't), if one party (the State) violates the terms of the contract, then the other parties (we) are no longer bound by it.

MANY things are enforced without violence. If I don't pay my credit card bill, Mr. Mastercard doesn't send goons to my house to turn me upside down and shake the change out of my pockets. He just trashes my credit score. It's called OPPORTUNITY COSTS and it's not violent. Works great. so you're wrong.


Cool story bro.  You broke your social contract when you went 56mph in a 55mph zone, the state is now free to kill you and your family with impunity because it is no longer bound by the contract.

That's a fun game to play, huh?


You're right, no goons to the house, they just harass you every second of your life, then put leans on your property, then they take your property... and if you resist, the police arrest you, and if you resist arrest, the police kill you.

Got any other examples of stuff not enforced with violence?  Anything worth enforcing is enforced with violence, because there simply is no other way to make people do something they really don't want to do.

Credit cards are unsecured debt, Einstein. They don't put liens on your house.

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AyeYo
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June 17, 2011, 02:06:12 AM
 #44

"Both parties are bound; it's called the law, it applies to everyone, government included."

when I steal it's theft. When government steals, it's taxation

when I kidnap, it's a felony. When the State kidnaps, it's an arrest

when I force people to work for me, it's slavery. When the State does it, it's the Draft, selective service, conscription, whatever.

The state doesn't obey the same rules at all. it breaks the rules and gives it's violations different names.



hahhahaha

Taxation isn't stealing, it's written into the law and thus part of the contract.

Arrests are kidnapping, their parameters are written into the law and thus part of the contract.

Selective service is written into the law and military members are paid, therefore it is part of the contract and not slavery.


YOU defined those things on your own terms.  The terms of the contract define them as such.

Enjoying the dose of reality or getting a laugh out of my posts? Feel free to toss me a penny or two, everyone else seems to be doing it! 1Kn8NqvbCC83zpvBsKMtu4sjso5PjrQEu1
myrkul
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June 17, 2011, 02:07:14 AM
 #45

Both parties do have obligations - the little old ladies pays her taxes and the government renders services.

You've got that wrong. The government forces her to use their services, and then forces her to pay, or be locked in a cage, (at the expense of the other people they're forcing to use their services) and if she doesn't go peaceably to that cage, will beat her until she dies or stops struggling.

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Anonymous
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June 17, 2011, 02:08:49 AM
 #46

You see, the government's services are the best she will ever get because they are powered by the great power of democracy! It's completely infallible!
AyeYo
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June 17, 2011, 02:09:00 AM
 #47


And you're damn right it justifies whatever law the society sees fit, which is why its called a social contract.  If you don't like it, change it.  If you can't change it peacefully, change it violently - such is history and human nature.

In this society, you're forced to pay your taxes because someone along the way was smart enough to make payment for social programs manditory.  Deal with it, or else.  And, yes, that or else is perfectly acceptable because violence is the only way ANYTHING is enforced, so cut the shit with this shooting old ladies rhetoric.

Even if we assumed that we did agree to a social contract (we didn't), if one party (the State) violates the terms of the contract, then the other parties (we) are no longer bound by it.

MANY things are enforced without violence. If I don't pay my credit card bill, Mr. Mastercard doesn't send goons to my house to turn me upside down and shake the change out of my pockets. He just trashes my credit score. It's called OPPORTUNITY COSTS and it's not violent. Works great. so you're wrong.


Cool story bro.  You broke your social contract when you went 56mph in a 55mph zone, the state is now free to kill you and your family with impunity because it is no longer bound by the contract.

That's a fun game to play, huh?


You're right, no goons to the house, they just harass you every second of your life, then put leans on your property, then they take your property... and if you resist, the police arrest you, and if you resist arrest, the police kill you.

Got any other examples of stuff not enforced with violence?  Anything worth enforcing is enforced with violence, because there simply is no other way to make people do something they really don't want to do.

Credit cards are unsecured debt, Einstein. They don't put liens on your house.


Better check into those new bankruptcy laws.  CC companies can now attach your pay and take your assets.  The days of scott-free bankruptcies ended awhile ago.

Enjoying the dose of reality or getting a laugh out of my posts? Feel free to toss me a penny or two, everyone else seems to be doing it! 1Kn8NqvbCC83zpvBsKMtu4sjso5PjrQEu1
kylesaisgone
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June 17, 2011, 02:09:40 AM
 #48

"Both parties are bound; it's called the law, it applies to everyone, government included."

when I steal it's theft. When government steals, it's taxation

when I kidnap, it's a felony. When the State kidnaps, it's an arrest

when I force people to work for me, it's slavery. When the State does it, it's the Draft, selective service, conscription, whatever.

The state doesn't obey the same rules at all. it breaks the rules and gives it's violations different names.



hahhahaha

Taxation isn't stealing, it's written into the law and thus part of the contract.

Arrests are kidnapping, their parameters are written into the law and thus part of the contract.

Selective service is written into the law and military members are paid, therefore it is part of the contract and not slavery.


YOU defined those things on your own terms.  The terms of the contract define them as such.

It's really cute how you completely ignore the fact that the relationship between the State and it's citizen is totally unilateral. Troll elsewhere.

AyeYo
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June 17, 2011, 02:10:25 AM
 #49

Both parties do have obligations - the little old ladies pays her taxes and the government renders services.

You've got that wrong. The government forces her to use their services, and then forces her to pay, or be locked in a cage, (at the expense of the other people they're forcing to use their services) and if she doesn't go peaceably to that cage, will beat her until she dies or stops struggling.


Nope.  Not even close.  She's free to pack up and leave at any time.

Enjoying the dose of reality or getting a laugh out of my posts? Feel free to toss me a penny or two, everyone else seems to be doing it! 1Kn8NqvbCC83zpvBsKMtu4sjso5PjrQEu1
Anonymous
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June 17, 2011, 02:11:56 AM
 #50

Both parties do have obligations - the little old ladies pays her taxes and the government renders services.

You've got that wrong. The government forces her to use their services, and then forces her to pay, or be locked in a cage, (at the expense of the other people they're forcing to use their services) and if she doesn't go peaceably to that cage, will beat her until she dies or stops struggling.


Nope.  Not even close.  She's free to pack up and leave at any time.


...to the middle of the ocean.

The only reasonable option is to evade the state.
AyeYo
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June 17, 2011, 02:12:29 AM
 #51

"Both parties are bound; it's called the law, it applies to everyone, government included."

when I steal it's theft. When government steals, it's taxation

when I kidnap, it's a felony. When the State kidnaps, it's an arrest

when I force people to work for me, it's slavery. When the State does it, it's the Draft, selective service, conscription, whatever.

The state doesn't obey the same rules at all. it breaks the rules and gives it's violations different names.



hahhahaha

Taxation isn't stealing, it's written into the law and thus part of the contract.

Arrests are kidnapping, their parameters are written into the law and thus part of the contract.

Selective service is written into the law and military members are paid, therefore it is part of the contract and not slavery.


YOU defined those things on your own terms.  The terms of the contract define them as such.

It's really cute how you completely ignore the fact that the relationship between the State and it's citizen is totally unilateral. Troll elsewhere.


What's cuter is that you ignore the fact that people have a hand in government (that's what a democracy is), so they if they care enough they can tailor the contract any way they see fit.  If they're unable to do that, they can GTFO at any time.

What's the cutest is that you sit here and bemoan the evil government all day, while enjoying all its benefits.

Enjoying the dose of reality or getting a laugh out of my posts? Feel free to toss me a penny or two, everyone else seems to be doing it! 1Kn8NqvbCC83zpvBsKMtu4sjso5PjrQEu1
AyeYo
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June 17, 2011, 02:13:34 AM
 #52

Both parties do have obligations - the little old ladies pays her taxes and the government renders services.

You've got that wrong. The government forces her to use their services, and then forces her to pay, or be locked in a cage, (at the expense of the other people they're forcing to use their services) and if she doesn't go peaceably to that cage, will beat her until she dies or stops struggling.


Nope.  Not even close.  She's free to pack up and leave at any time.


...to the middle of the ocean.

The only reasonable option is to evade the state.


No, no... there are about 199 other countries she can move to.

Enjoying the dose of reality or getting a laugh out of my posts? Feel free to toss me a penny or two, everyone else seems to be doing it! 1Kn8NqvbCC83zpvBsKMtu4sjso5PjrQEu1
Anonymous
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June 17, 2011, 02:14:05 AM
 #53

"Both parties are bound; it's called the law, it applies to everyone, government included."

when I steal it's theft. When government steals, it's taxation

when I kidnap, it's a felony. When the State kidnaps, it's an arrest

when I force people to work for me, it's slavery. When the State does it, it's the Draft, selective service, conscription, whatever.

The state doesn't obey the same rules at all. it breaks the rules and gives it's violations different names.



hahhahaha

Taxation isn't stealing, it's written into the law and thus part of the contract.

Arrests are kidnapping, their parameters are written into the law and thus part of the contract.

Selective service is written into the law and military members are paid, therefore it is part of the contract and not slavery.


YOU defined those things on your own terms.  The terms of the contract define them as such.

It's really cute how you completely ignore the fact that the relationship between the State and it's citizen is totally unilateral. Troll elsewhere.


What's cuter is that you ignore the fact that people have a hand in government (that's what a democracy is), so they if they care enough they can tailor the contract any way they see fit.  If they're unable to do that, they can GTFO at any time.

What's the cutest is that you sit here and bemoan the evil government all day, while enjoying all its benefits.

To say we have benefits, is to say we should be gratefiul for the Jello we got with our prison meal.
billyjoeallen
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June 17, 2011, 02:14:16 AM
 #54

hahhahaha

Taxation isn't stealing, it's written into the law and thus part of the contract.

Arrests are kidnapping, their parameters are written into the law and thus part of the contract.

Selective service is written into the law and military members are paid, therefore it is part of the contract and not slavery.


YOU defined those things on your own terms.  The terms of the contract define them as such.

The State is the final arbiter of disputes, including disputes with the State.
The State is the sole enforcer of contracts
The State interprets the contracts.
You're cool with that? Don't see any problems with it?

Man, you have had some serious brainwashing. I'm guessing you attended government schools.

insert coin here:
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Anonymous
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June 17, 2011, 02:14:45 AM
 #55

Both parties do have obligations - the little old ladies pays her taxes and the government renders services.

You've got that wrong. The government forces her to use their services, and then forces her to pay, or be locked in a cage, (at the expense of the other people they're forcing to use their services) and if she doesn't go peaceably to that cage, will beat her until she dies or stops struggling.


Nope.  Not even close.  She's free to pack up and leave at any time.


...to the middle of the ocean.

The only reasonable option is to evade the state.


No, no... there are about 199 other countries she can move to.

That have the same exact shit.
AyeYo
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June 17, 2011, 02:24:33 AM
 #56

hahhahaha

Taxation isn't stealing, it's written into the law and thus part of the contract.

Arrests are kidnapping, their parameters are written into the law and thus part of the contract.

Selective service is written into the law and military members are paid, therefore it is part of the contract and not slavery.


YOU defined those things on your own terms.  The terms of the contract define them as such.

The State is the final arbiter of disputes, including disputes with the State.
The State is the sole enforcer of contracts
The State interprets the contracts.
You're cool with that? Don't see any problems with it?

Man, you have had some serious brainwashing. I'm guessing you attended government schools.


The LAW is the final arbiter of disputes.

The state enforces contracts based on what the LAW.

The JUDICIAL SYSTEM interprets the LAW and how it applies to contracts.

Yea, I'm cool with that.  The contracts applies to everyone, government included.


It's still hilarious that libertarians refer to the government as some outside, supernatural force when it suits them and then refer to it as a body of people when it suits them.  In this case it's a supernatural, outside force.  Because if you talked about it as it really is, a body of citizens, it just wouldn't sound sinister enough to fit your rhetoric.

Enjoying the dose of reality or getting a laugh out of my posts? Feel free to toss me a penny or two, everyone else seems to be doing it! 1Kn8NqvbCC83zpvBsKMtu4sjso5PjrQEu1
kylesaisgone
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June 17, 2011, 02:33:59 AM
 #57

"Both parties are bound; it's called the law, it applies to everyone, government included."

when I steal it's theft. When government steals, it's taxation

when I kidnap, it's a felony. When the State kidnaps, it's an arrest

when I force people to work for me, it's slavery. When the State does it, it's the Draft, selective service, conscription, whatever.

The state doesn't obey the same rules at all. it breaks the rules and gives it's violations different names.



hahhahaha

Taxation isn't stealing, it's written into the law and thus part of the contract.

Arrests are kidnapping, their parameters are written into the law and thus part of the contract.

Selective service is written into the law and military members are paid, therefore it is part of the contract and not slavery.


YOU defined those things on your own terms.  The terms of the contract define them as such.

It's really cute how you completely ignore the fact that the relationship between the State and it's citizen is totally unilateral. Troll elsewhere.


What's cuter is that you ignore the fact that people have a hand in government (that's what a democracy is), so they if they care enough they can tailor the contract any way they see fit.  If they're unable to do that, they can GTFO at any time.

What's the cutest is that you sit here and bemoan the evil government all day, while enjoying all its benefits.

'Democracy', lol. Let me know when you finish your high school civics class.

Keeping with the consistency of statism, you're right, I enjoy the 'benefits' of Government, like out of control cops, horribly maintained roads/infrastructure, and I'm given no other choices, because these services are forced on me, at gunpoint. Since you hate corporations so much, why are you so willing to type on a computer manufactured with parts made by evil corporations, using software developed by mega-corporations like Microsoft, and sending your posts out through internet owned and operated by a private corporation? Because you do these things, that means you can't hate corporations, because you use their products!

Nice argument, bro. How's High School treating you?

Anonymous
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June 17, 2011, 02:36:52 AM
 #58

Now he's going to argue those corporations couldn't of done those things without the government.
myrkul
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June 17, 2011, 02:38:04 AM
 #59

Nice argument, bro. How's High School treating you?

Pwn't

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AyeYo
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June 17, 2011, 02:41:28 AM
 #60

"Both parties are bound; it's called the law, it applies to everyone, government included."

when I steal it's theft. When government steals, it's taxation

when I kidnap, it's a felony. When the State kidnaps, it's an arrest

when I force people to work for me, it's slavery. When the State does it, it's the Draft, selective service, conscription, whatever.

The state doesn't obey the same rules at all. it breaks the rules and gives it's violations different names.



hahhahaha

Taxation isn't stealing, it's written into the law and thus part of the contract.

Arrests are kidnapping, their parameters are written into the law and thus part of the contract.

Selective service is written into the law and military members are paid, therefore it is part of the contract and not slavery.


YOU defined those things on your own terms.  The terms of the contract define them as such.

It's really cute how you completely ignore the fact that the relationship between the State and it's citizen is totally unilateral. Troll elsewhere.


What's cuter is that you ignore the fact that people have a hand in government (that's what a democracy is), so they if they care enough they can tailor the contract any way they see fit.  If they're unable to do that, they can GTFO at any time.

What's the cutest is that you sit here and bemoan the evil government all day, while enjoying all its benefits.

'Democracy', lol. Let me know when you finish your high school civics class.

Keeping with the consistency of statism, you're right, I enjoy the 'benefits' of Government, like out of control cops, horribly maintained roads/infrastructure, and I'm given no other choices, because these services are forced on me, at gunpoint. Since you hate corporations so much, why are you so willing to type on a computer manufactured with parts made by evil corporations, using software developed by mega-corporations like Microsoft, and sending your posts out through internet owned and operated by a private corporation? Because you do these things, that means you can't hate corporations, because you use their products!

Nice argument, bro. How's High School treating you?


No one is forcing shit on you.  You're free to move away at any time.  The US installed governments of most third-world slums hold dear the very same priciples that you do.  So when are you leaving?  I'll even come help you pack.

On the other hand, since there isn't a large corporation on earth that isn't exploiting someone, somewhere, I don't have any options.  However, I at least try to educate the ignorant, big business worshiping folk like yourself so that hopefully, someday, enough people will get off their asses that we can get things under control.

Enjoying the dose of reality or getting a laugh out of my posts? Feel free to toss me a penny or two, everyone else seems to be doing it! 1Kn8NqvbCC83zpvBsKMtu4sjso5PjrQEu1
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