Is bitcoin mining environmentally responsible?

[astor]

The problem is that the electricity requirements of bitcoin means that transactions will have to be more expensive than for competing currencies.

The transaction volume is an upper bound on the goods and services sold in the economy, and with an incentive to do less transactions than in a competing currency, the goods and services available in bitcoin will be less than in competing currencies(*) 


(*) all other things considered equal.  Assume that for everything I say in this discussion.

[astor]

Just want to add that ppcoin is also broken in other ways, so that's not the end solution either.

ppcoin and bitcoin share another unrelated misfeature, that the barrier to entry increases as time goes on.

This has nothing to do with difficulty and this is important to understand.  It has specifically to do with SHA256 and the fact that SHA256 was never designed as a proof-of-work problem.

[Kalen]

/rolleyes media driven narrative for ratings

[MargaretsDream]

I often wonder this! It is quite a waste of computing resources really. What we need is a useful sum! The power is used to find massive primes and that leads to the creation of a new block! Primes are useful!

Big primes can be created easily, so no point finding em imho.

[Cobrabee]

Someone mentioned all the paper used to print currency, and I would mention the administrative work that is required to keep traditional currency circulating; not just the staff, office space, computers, but all sorts of wallets and purses.  Even if purses were still used, we're talking about a lot of extra leather just for the cash slots and for men- if I could get by just using my mobile device as a wallet, I would, instead of all the cards and cash necessary.

To compare, let's think of bitcoin as a product.  How many useless ubiquitous products are on the market that require a large amount of energy to manufacture or maintain?  When I read media about bitcoin being an environmental disaster, I have trouble reconciling how it should receive so much attention, when any other thing that is needed or desired is churned out by factories without a second thought.

I definitely think we should be mindful of resources, and climate change is serious business- but... let's consider how bitcoin could have a positive impact in replacing currencies in the long term.

[Sidewayzracer]

As fossil fuels get wound down it will become even more environmentally safe then smelting and printing currency

[Cobrabee]

As fossil fuels get wound down it will become even more environmentally safe then smelting and printing currency

Agreed- and when solar cells are readily available, this will disappear except the cost to manufacture mining hardware- which of course will be great, once the ASICs are readily available at the same price point as GPUs/FPGAs.

[bezzeb]

Guys, i read through looking for anyone making the most important points that come to my mind and didn't see it.  When i read this article a few days ago it annoyed me because.

1.  Method:  How green your electricity is depends on how you make it.  The world is gradually improving this.

2.  Comparison:  How is this different than all of the thousands of data centers operated by all of the worlds banks which I dare say are probably far less efficient than the mining rigs.  Also the block-chain doesn't require heated and ventilated branch offices scattered every 10 meters throughout every city on earth.  Who's green now?

3.  Future:  Mining has a real incentive to drive efficiency forward and reduce costs.  Traditional banks don't, we all can see how they endlessly keep raising fees to cover whatever private jets they desire.  Miners have no such access - no end consumers for them to rape.

Yes yes, I know the rising difficulty draws more and more power, but keeping things in perspective it's vastly greener than conventional banking when all things are considered.  Plus if the world ever goes full BTC in the far future, you can recycle every ATM on earth into beer cans or something.  Having access to the internet is already as important or more-so than where the nearest bank or ATM is.

[barbs]

if you combine your bitcoin mining device as a space heater and turn off that heater, then sure?

[Yorky]

It isn't environmentally responsible in my opinion but there are so many other, much bigger, environmental problems in the world that I'd start there rather than mining bitcoins.

I do agree though. In an ideal world we wouldn't need to mine them.

[deadweasel]

It isn't environmentally responsible in my opinion but there are so many other, much bigger, environmental problems in the world that I'd start there rather than mining bitcoins.

I do agree though. In an ideal world we wouldn't need to mine them.

+1

an ideal world exists only in each persons heads.  there is no ideal.

there is improvement though.

[Cobrabee]

But hasn't bitcoin competition advanced the development of efficiencies in power consumption OR doesn't it encourage that? Even before I began mining, I considered how it might do that for both the end user of such hardware and for massive data centers.

[bezzeb]

Is it environmentally responsible to have lights in your house?  Enjoy a movie in a theater? Drive your fancy new electric car?  Use any device which requires flowing electrons to operate it?  (Which is pretty much every device on earth.)

It's how one makes electrons flow that counts.  Bitcoin miners run on electricity, not coal, so if you then go make your electricity with coal, then I'd recommend you stop.

And lets not forget that the banking / finance sector uses mind boggling amounts of electricity for it to operate and keep all it's branches open, so let's keep it all in perspective now.  Why aren't we complaining here that Bank of America should set the air-conditioners in all of it's buildings 1 degree warmer?  Or upgrade 2 year old servers with new more efficient ones to reduce data center electric bills?  Or or or....  Any one of a thousand small savings could probably run all of the bitcoin miners on earth several several times over.  

Lastly, I've said elsewhere but bitcoin does spur efficiency since running costs come directly from mining profit unlike traditional banking which can dictate the amount of profit it wants to have from year to year.

So we can enjoy the cool breeze from our HVAC (or warmth from our mining rigs) and focus on smarter ways to power things.  As this isn't a green power forum we can just let the matter rest because as far as bitcoin is concerned i think the original article that spawned this discussion was FUD.

[malarkannan]

Renewable energy ftw.

[J23450N]

The problem isn't bitcoin mining, the problem is our reluctance to switch to renewable energy sources because the dirty ones are so damn profitable. Ironically, mining btc probably has the same motivator.

[Cobrabee]

Is it environmentally responsible to have lights in your house?  Enjoy a movie in a theater? Drive your fancy new electric car?  Use any device which requires flowing electrons to operate it?  (Which is pretty much every device on earth.)

It's how one makes electrons flow that counts.  Bitcoin miners run on electricity, not coal, so if you then go make your electricity with coal, then I'd recommend you stop.

And lets not forget that the banking / finance sector uses mind boggling amounts of electricity for it to operate and keep all it's branches open, so let's keep it all in perspective now.  Why aren't we complaining here that Bank of America should set the air-conditioners in all of it's buildings 1 degree warmer?  Or upgrade 2 year old servers with new more efficient ones to reduce data center electric bills?  Or or or....  Any one of a thousand small savings could probably run all of the bitcoin miners on earth several several times over.  

Lastly, I've said elsewhere but bitcoin does spur efficiency since running costs come directly from mining profit unlike traditional banking which can dictate the amount of profit it wants to have from year to year.

So we can enjoy the cool breeze from our HVAC (or warmth from our mining rigs) and focus on smarter ways to power things.  As this isn't a green power forum we can just let the matter rest because as far as bitcoin is concerned i think the original article that spawned this discussion was FUD.

I think you're considering things in the right light... a lot of people consider only what they're doing and what media tells them vs. what is currently done to gain revenue.  

I totally understand the environmental impact of energy use, but right now, I'm waiting on my next work contract and sitting at home instead of using a car to travel 20+ miles round trip... would anyone here suggest that shutting down my rig would be beneficial to me financially?

[astor]

But hasn't bitcoin competition advanced the development of efficiencies in power consumption OR doesn't it encourage that? Even before I began mining, I considered how it might do that for both the end user of such hardware and for massive data centers.

No the efficiency of mining does not influence the energy consumption at all.  It is the exchange price of BTC that drives energy consumption.

[bezzeb]

But hasn't bitcoin competition advanced the development of efficiencies in power consumption OR doesn't it encourage that? Even before I began mining, I considered how it might do that for both the end user of such hardware and for massive data centers.

No the efficiency of mining does not influence the energy consumption at all.  It is the exchange price of BTC that drives energy consumption.

Um..   The exchange price draws and keeps miners in the game and it allows them to cash out and pay their electric bills.  But efficiency is the primary determining factor for how likely you are to receive any bitcoins per KWH of electricity consumed.  If you drive efficiency up by continuing to invest in better hardware (hello ASIC's) then you are more likely to earn enough bitcoins to make it worthwhile.

So true, exchange price is quite important.  But efficiency (defined as hash attempts per unit of electricity) is a serious factor if you plan to mine, as are difficulty rates, local utility rates, room temperature, etc... 

[Cobrabee]

Another thought, that often enters my mind, "What if by mining, at or above the cost of electricity, I'm just buying BTC at the cost of consumption?  Every other form of revenue has energy costs, why is media harshin' me?  Not trying to sound over-Libertarian posed, but I find myself hard-pressed to consider what my energy costs are, when driving to work and working on PCs anyways, as a systems analyst...

[widgeteer]

Its fine.  Think about how much poewr is wasted on computers already.  Remember though, computers are getting better efficiency and so are these ASICS