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Author Topic: ICONOMI - Live for today. Invest for tomorrow.  (Read 554027 times)
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Daparski
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May 30, 2017, 05:59:42 AM
 #5601

I feel like the point that Mendeleev is making (and people are ignoring or not getting) is that there is no legal or structural mechanism that ties the value of Iconomi to the ICN token. Iconomi could very well build a massively successful company that generates billions of dollars in revenue and the only value transfer mechanism we token holders have is the belief that Tim/Jani and company are honorable men that will maintain the (unenforceable) contract that we all entered into when we invested in the ICO. There is likely no government in the world where ICN holders could prosecute a lawsuit against them. That being said, I believe in the project and the team. I judge them to be honorable in their actions and efforts. Everything that they are doing *SCREAMS* legitimate to me. But who knows, Bernie Madoff was the ultimate insider and he stole billions.

That is exactly my point and I tried to explain that to my uncle.
Currently there is no legal framework for any crypto project. Iconomi is no different in that matter.
What assurance have waves, steem, Aragon, storj or any other crypto platform token owners??

If MEND token owner can speak his mind and suggest a way for Iconomi to provide such legal assurance it will be great.

As for the security that people have with traditional stocks - how many of them lost their money and life savings despite the legal paper they had in their hands?

Legal or not, crypto or fiat it doesn't matter. There is only one thing that really matters and it is always the most important asset in every company, project, or startup - the people behind it.
It is always people first, not technology or legal papers first.
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May 30, 2017, 06:54:38 AM
 #5602

Traditional companies have the weight of the legal system behind them. If a company officer fails to act in its stakeholders interests the board can replace them. If the officers act illegally they can be prosecuted and put in jail. Crypto doesn't have those mechanisms to back it's arrangements. We're fucked if any of the projects decide to take the btc/eth and run, and there's nothing we can do about it. For crypto (which is supposed to be trustless) we really do have to place a lot of trust in the teams and projects that we are backing. I think that trust in itself warrants the generous terms we enjoy through the ICO process, but we give up a lot of legal protections by participating.

Regarding someone coming up with some mechanism for Iconomi to implement at the suggestion of the community regarding a way to assure investors, we still have to trust that the Iconomi team would implement it (assuming it's a rational and carefully thought out suggestion.)

When traditional investors invest in stocks and the company fails the courts sell the assets and pay out liabilities, and then investors. Yes they may lose money, but the actions are enforced the government.
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May 30, 2017, 07:10:48 AM
 #5603

Isn't ICN token use for investing inside the platform such as buying icnx and icnp?
 I don't remember where i have read this but wasn't it true?  I have no clue as I'm not a beta tester either.

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May 30, 2017, 07:22:32 AM
 #5604

Isn't ICN token use for investing inside the platform such as buying icnx and icnp?
 I don't remember where i have read this but wasn't it true?  I have no clue as I'm not a beta tester either.

--->ICN will have a utility function once the platform is open to everyone. Certain amounts of ICN will be needed for different actions.

well that what was written by jani8x. It was not specifically stated that icn will be required to buy icnx and icnp, but i dont know what other uses icn can be used on the platform.
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May 30, 2017, 07:55:55 AM
 #5605

Isn't ICN token use for investing inside the platform such as buying icnx and icnp?
 I don't remember where i have read this but wasn't it true?  I have no clue as I'm not a beta tester either.

1. You can't buy ICNP. You own icnp by holding ICN.
2. You buy icnx with btc/eth.
3. Icn will be used for making your own funds or something like that. It was not yet decided.

❘|❘ ICONOMI  Fund Management Platform
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May 30, 2017, 09:19:34 AM
 #5606

That is exactly my point and I tried to explain that to my uncle.
Currently there is no legal framework for any crypto project. Iconomi is no different in that matter.
What assurance have waves, steem, Aragon, storj or any other crypto platform token owners??

You aren't understanding that other tokens are given value by the fact they get spent on things (e.g. gas), or are used to claim something else. Legal framework isn't required for that to be provably true. Your point about the team sticking around doesn't alter that fundamental difference in the value of the token.

They aren't claiming to be shares. ICN, without utility, or legal binding as ownership of anything, has no connection to the platform. And also, you aren't understanding that nobody from Iconomi, nor the website, is currently claiming that ICN represents ownership. So why are you? Why won't you accept that there is a possible scenario in which they can no longer make this claim?

If you have no legal claim to ownership in the platform, then you don't own it. Plain and simple. And so ICN has no clear value, unless they give it a use. You don't need a legal claim to ownership of other crypto projects, because they aren't claiming that you "own" their platforms! ICN has no link to Iconomi's assets unless you have some type of provable ownership.

This really isn't difficult to understand.

You are arguing for a position that the team aren't even backing up. Let's make this simple: Send Jani a message on Slack, and ask him this...

"Jani, does my ICN currently represent ownership of the Iconomi platform?"

If he says yes, or "it will in future", ask him how that ownership will be provable.

Stop arguing with me about it. Just ask him. Even just the "yes" would be a start.
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May 30, 2017, 09:33:39 AM
 #5607

That proves ownership of ICN. Not ownership of Iconomi. That's my whole point.

What proof of ownership would you like to see? Do you require a piece of paper written by a legal institution or what?
What proves ownership of AAPL by Apple?
Crypto doesn't work like that, at least yet and I'm sure you know that.
Or am I wrong? What crypto token has that?

As I already said, soon we'll have services like Aragon that will act as companies register and will provide all the features we are used to and even more.

The token and the platform aren't the same thing, and there's nothing linking them together - other than the buybacks.

Sure these aren't the same thing. ICN is stock - platform is product or asset that contributes towards its value.
But you are wrong that there is no link.
  • ICO was conducted on Iconomi platform. Many ICOs at that time (many are still this way) were done on the platform - it gives a number of advantages
  • the platform received seed money and distributed ICN to investors to represent their share in the project - Iconomi team is in control of this money and you control your shares. Yes, these shares don't pay dividends - it's very common in the markets to do buybacks, but it doesn't make these shares less valuable. In fact it is often other way around.
  • you can use Etherscan (or any other Eth chain explorer) to view this information
  • Iconomi communication channels explicitly state that ICN is the token representing Iconomi stock. Yes, ICN is non-voting stock yet, like any other ERC20 token in practice - but this doesn't reduce its value much (compare GOOGL and GOOG price)

what else you require?

But anybody can buy them, or create support levels. This doesn't demonstrate that your ICN token is linked to Iconomi's assets or profits, or why Iconomi's success should increase the value of ICN. The market doesn't care who is providing support levels. This works different with regular shares. With ICN, it's just a case of "here's your token. This represents Iconomi" and we just have to believe that based on... what?

First of all, this works the same way with "regular" shares.
Of course anybody can buy - it's publicly traded. Iconomi uses its profits to buyback its shares - what isn't clear about that?
But market cares who is providing support levels - "buy and burn" is different to "buy and sell later" - don't pretend you don't get it.

With ICN, it's just a case of "here's your token. This represents Iconomi" and we just have to believe that based on... what?

If in a banana republic a Banana Corp. offered you BNNA - what would make you believe it's legit? - the answer is trust. You choose who to trust for yourself.
And you don't have to believe, if you don't - just stay away from this stock or you can take the risk. High yield means high risk and often vv. and Iconomi has a pretty decent risk-reward ratio in my opinion, far better than many crypto projects out there.

This is probably why Iconomi are trying to create a new use for the token. Why would they bother inventing a new use for it otherwise?

This isn't why. New use is being invented to bring more value.

Anyway, unless Iconomi can solve this, I predict this outcome: ICN will become a token used to complete actions on the platform. And that will be its only value.

I predicted that dividends would be scrapped, by the way. So if I'm right about this, I expect you all to kiss my sweaty feet  Kiss


This prediction is worth nothing after Jani confirmed that  Wink

And again the concept of value - it will bring additional value, but in no way it will be it's "only value".

With statements like that you sound like a troll - a well disguised one but still.

Overall, I think I've answered all your questions.
Should you wish to continue discussion please attempt to answer at least one of mine and please don't make unjustified statements that you aren't able to prove or support.
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May 30, 2017, 09:40:43 AM
 #5608

Traditional companies have the weight of the legal system behind them. If a company officer fails to act in its stakeholders interests the board can replace them. If the officers act illegally they can be prosecuted and put in jail. Crypto doesn't have those mechanisms to back it's arrangements. We're fucked if any of the projects decide to take the btc/eth and run, and there's nothing we can do about it. For crypto (which is supposed to be trustless) we really do have to place a lot of trust in the teams and projects that we are backing. I think that trust in itself warrants the generous terms we enjoy through the ICO process, but we give up a lot of legal protections by participating.

Regarding someone coming up with some mechanism for Iconomi to implement at the suggestion of the community regarding a way to assure investors, we still have to trust that the Iconomi team would implement it (assuming it's a rational and carefully thought out suggestion.)

When traditional investors invest in stocks and the company fails the courts sell the assets and pay out liabilities, and then investors. Yes they may lose money, but the actions are enforced the government.

You make a great case for why projects would transfer control of their assets to Aragon organizations (once it is safe to do so)

In the future, launching an ICO on a platform like Aragon, where investors can retain voting rights and control of their ETH, will be a standard practice.

Can we discuss the base currency and P/L calculations for ICNP more instead of circlejerking about a general problem with ICO's?  

The market already knows there is a trust problem with every ICO, hence trusting Aragon with our 275k ETH to solve this problem.  Guess what, if Aragon devs mismanage that 275k ETH, the fact that ANT is fuel for the platform would not save it from crashing and getting replaced by some other utility token.

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May 30, 2017, 10:05:17 AM
Last edit: May 30, 2017, 10:15:46 AM by Mendeleev
 #5609

This prediction is worth nothing after Jani confirmed that  Wink

And again the concept of value - it will bring additional value, but in no way it will be it's "only value".

With statements like that you sound like a troll - a well disguised one but still.

The "prediction" is that it will be its sole value. I know Jani comfirmed that it will happen. My prediction is worth something in that I'm saying it will be the only value - at least to start with (which you disagree with)

I could be dead wrong, of course. That's just the direction I'm going with what I believe I know.

It's not intended as trolling, because I'm not saying "this will be terrible!"... Golem GNT was originally intended as a sort of "share" but they transitioned last minute. Mysterium are making the same move, because they know they can't (legally) offer shares at this moment in time. Mysterium's move is what further leads me to saying a lot of the things I've said. It seems like Mysterium have learned from Iconomi's mistake in this area.

I agree with you, though, that this isn't how crypto works right now. But that's just it - I'm only talking about now. I also envision a future where a token will serve that purpose. But we're not there yet.

I'm out and about, so can't go over each point you made - but it looks like you made some good points there. I may respond via DM later, if I have anything more to add.

Have a nice day!

P.S. - Read the end of my response to Daparski above. You mentioned communication channels. See if you can get Jani to confirm what you're saying. It would be the first step toward convincing me (and others) - then we can take it from there.
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May 30, 2017, 11:34:28 AM
 #5610

This prediction is worth nothing after Jani confirmed that  Wink

And again the concept of value - it will bring additional value, but in no way it will be it's "only value".

With statements like that you sound like a troll - a well disguised one but still.

The "prediction" is that it will be its sole value. I know Jani comfirmed that it will happen. My prediction is worth something in that I'm saying it will be the only value - at least to start with (which you disagree with)

I could be dead wrong, of course. That's just the direction I'm going with what I believe I know.

It's not intended as trolling, because I'm not saying "this will be terrible!"... Golem GNT was originally intended as a sort of "share" but they transitioned last minute. Mysterium are making the same move, because they know they can't (legally) offer shares at this moment in time. Mysterium's move is what further leads me to saying a lot of the things I've said. It seems like Mysterium have learned from Iconomi's mistake in this area.

I agree with you, though, that this isn't how crypto works right now. But that's just it - I'm only talking about now. I also envision a future where a token will serve that purpose. But we're not there yet.

I'm out and about, so can't go over each point you made - but it looks like you made some good points there. I may respond via DM later, if I have anything more to add.

Have a nice day!

P.S. - Read the end of my response to Daparski above. You mentioned communication channels. See if you can get Jani to confirm what you're saying. It would be the first step toward convincing me (and others) - then we can take it from there.


@Mendeleev You are a seriously misinformed person. If you had spent just 1 minute going through the latest reddit AMA then you would know that jani already confirmed that ICN does in fact represent ownership of the ICNP and even other assets

I quote: "Yes - theoretically If ICONOMI closes down all the assets (that are currently worth around $33m) would be evenly distributed across every ICN token holders. Technically we would have to deploy a smart contract, convert all the assets into ETH (preferably) or any other ETH based tokens and allow anyone with a corresponding balance at certain block height to take ETH from that contract. On exchanges price would become equal or come with a slight discount compared to book value."

The original question was: "There has been a few comments recently by other users that question ICN's value and where it is derived from. I understand that the buy-back is a profit distribution method, but since ICN represents ownership of Iconomi... Does that mean that if hypothetically Iconomi was to close down tomorrow, would all the assets worth over $33 million be distributed evenly across every ICN token? I think this will clarify ICN's value proposition and whether it does actually represent ownership of the Iconomi platform including assets managed by ICNP and funds raised through ICO. "


Aside from that, it is not unfeasible to believe that ICN will be the sole token to purchase ICNX on the platform.

Furthermore, ICN does buybacks. A portion of all of the profits from the platform will result in buybacks. This means over time this will be a deflationary cryptotoken unlike BTC or ETH. The buyback also guarantees a stake in the success of the platform.

Lastly, it is not impossible that the ICN team may decide to allow people to participate in ICO's using ICN.






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May 30, 2017, 12:14:35 PM
 #5611

Rofl at clueless reddit idiots. Here customer support in an email clearly states that ICN represents ownership and that you will get voting rights

"It’s different in the way that holding ICN indicates that you believe that the company itself will succeed." I then sent another email, asking what the fuck that even means. The email i got back was from Gregor K. And he states "the profits (in accordance with profit distribution policy) and fees go to buybacks and if you hold ICN tokens you get this "profits". ICN token also represents ownership of the company and will give you voting rights in the future."

Then the reddit user says this:

Youre right, in the AMA u/jani8x states the assets would be shared with ICN holders if the company were to close. Effectively meaning we are all part owners/share holders. And then in that exact same thread u/jani8x states the ICN tokens will be given a ulitity. A token cannot simultaneously be used a share and also a utility inside the platform, that makes no sense.

Do people even read what they write? OF COURSE a token can have utility AND be a share. Just like ETH represents a share of the network utilization and speculation it is also a utility token. LEGALLY they cannot say this but ETH is a security just like ICN is BUT people that dont understand the unwritten law of cryptomarkets are fools and try to compare crypto to traditional markets.

ICN = ownership of platform + voting rights + buybacks + utility == Overkill demand

We have hedge funds willing to poor in 200m+ into ICNX,ICNP
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May 30, 2017, 12:22:53 PM
 #5612

for all who dont understand yet ICN please read 1st page: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1789926.0
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May 30, 2017, 12:37:34 PM
 #5613

for all who dont understand yet ICN please read 1st page: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1789926.0

Couldn't agree more

This warms my heart: "ICNP
First digital asset array

ICNP is an actively managed Digital Asset Array with a high performance target. It is led by a team of experts conducting thorough research and due diligence backed by Deloitte and CoFound.it.

It’s lead by a team of experts conducting thorough research and due diligence backed by Deloitte and CoFound.it."
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May 30, 2017, 12:58:17 PM
 #5614

If I have to choose between holding icn or buying icnp, which one should i go for and why?
I do not have lots of funds for icnp so I might have to sell off my icn

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Sm00kew
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May 30, 2017, 01:01:12 PM
 #5615

If I have to choose between holding icn or buying icnp, which one should i go for and why?
I do not have lots of funds for icnp so I might have to sell off my icn
you can't buy icnp lol.

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May 30, 2017, 01:06:38 PM
 #5616

Isn't ICN token use for investing inside the platform such as buying icnx and icnp?
 I don't remember where i have read this but wasn't it true?  I have no clue as I'm not a beta tester either.

1. You can't buy ICNP. You own icnp by holding ICN.
2. You buy icnx with btc/eth.
3. Icn will be used for making your own funds or something like that. It was not yet decided.

This ICNP is not yet clear on me. Do I need it to store on my wallet? So much with this terminology,its all mixed up on me. I do trading on liqui,and I like the the ICN concept and coins. So much positive feedback.




















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May 30, 2017, 01:11:12 PM
 #5617

If I have to choose between holding icn or buying icnp, which one should i go for and why?
I do not have lots of funds for icnp so I might have to sell off my icn

By buying ICN you automatically hold ICNP. This is the hidden secret no one talks about. You cant buy into ICNP. You can only buy ICNX which is sort of an index. Since the ICNP can potentially deliver better returns it will increase the value of ICN dramatically
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May 30, 2017, 01:33:19 PM
 #5618

There are some truly sad bastards here. To have nothing better to do than troll/fud is beyond pathetic and the patronising, entitled tone is nauseating. The length of some posts too, why use one word when several hundred will do? Gobsmacked that it has taken valuable time to construct and publish a hypothesis on a principle you disagree with. Just keep quiet and move along - stop trying to derail a legitimate project that you are clearly envious about. Get a life, get a hobby or a partner. Anything but this, you're embarrassing yourself.
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May 30, 2017, 01:41:49 PM
 #5619

An updated whitepaper would solve all of this. Can we agree on that?
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May 30, 2017, 01:48:05 PM
 #5620

An updated whitepaper would solve all of this. Can we agree on that?

It will come in due time but all of the important things have been confirmed by customer support or janix himself. That is good enough for me.

ICN = ownership of the platform + IMMEDIATE ownership of ICNP + profits from buyback .. anything else like ICN for ICOs or ICN for buying funds is a plus
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