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Author Topic: MtGox withdrawal delays [Gathering]  (Read 908321 times)
bitcoinmarketmaker
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October 20, 2013, 09:08:44 AM
 #2021

An exchange cannot function if you can't get your money out. In the real world, if I went to any of the broker-dealer like interactive brokers or Goldman Sachs prop trading, and I can't wire out my money in the standard 24-48 hour window, major panic ensues and it will be on the CNBC front page.

Only reason no one gives a shit about Mt. Gox taking months to wire money out is most have no clue. But now even their bitcoin is getting delayed by days, which is a sure sign of liquidity problems. 
Exactly.  I get the impression that many people in the Bitcoin world have no clue what happens when a real broker defaults on their obligations. They're effectively out of business within hours, as other brokers won't deal with them, and they're closed down within days.

As a former prop trader & derivatives marketmaker at one of the big firms I can only agree with the comments above, which sums up all you need to know, everything else in this topic is just noise. I am still watching this topic for the entertainment value.

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October 20, 2013, 09:21:12 AM
 #2022

An exchange cannot function if you can't get your money out. In the real world, if I went to any of the broker-dealer like interactive brokers or Goldman Sachs prop trading, and I can't wire out my money in the standard 24-48 hour window, major panic ensues and it will be on the CNBC front page.

Only reason no one gives a shit about Mt. Gox taking months to wire money out is most have no clue. But now even their bitcoin is getting delayed by days, which is a sure sign of liquidity problems. 
Exactly.  I get the impression that many people in the Bitcoin world have no clue what happens when a real broker defaults on their obligations. They're effectively out of business within hours, as other brokers won't deal with them, and they're closed down within days.

As a former prop trader & derivatives marketmaker at one of the big firms I can only agree with the comments above, which sums up all you need to know, everything else in this topic is just noise. I am still watching this topic for the entertainment value.


The thing is, people do not appear to realize that MtGox is not an actual real world currency or commodity exchange. And neither is any other bitcoin exchange. We can't apply real world standards to them.

The bitcoin exchanges are small, shady companies providing trading platforms for an experimental cryptocurrency. Nothing more.
bitcoinmarketmaker
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October 20, 2013, 09:55:41 AM
 #2023

An exchange cannot function if you can't get your money out. In the real world, if I went to any of the broker-dealer like interactive brokers or Goldman Sachs prop trading, and I can't wire out my money in the standard 24-48 hour window, major panic ensues and it will be on the CNBC front page.

Only reason no one gives a shit about Mt. Gox taking months to wire money out is most have no clue. But now even their bitcoin is getting delayed by days, which is a sure sign of liquidity problems. 
Exactly.  I get the impression that many people in the Bitcoin world have no clue what happens when a real broker defaults on their obligations. They're effectively out of business within hours, as other brokers won't deal with them, and they're closed down within days.

As a former prop trader & derivatives marketmaker at one of the big firms I can only agree with the comments above, which sums up all you need to know, everything else in this topic is just noise. I am still watching this topic for the entertainment value.


The thing is, people do not appear to realize that MtGox is not an actual real world currency or commodity exchange. And neither is any other bitcoin exchange. We can't apply real world standards to them.

The bitcoin exchanges are small, shady companies providing trading platforms for an experimental cryptocurrency. Nothing more.

I was expecting this reply, and I kind of agree that we can't apply exact real world standards at this time, but even if we apply universally accepted shady companies standards, this is getting a bit out of hands.

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October 20, 2013, 10:10:04 AM
Last edit: October 20, 2013, 10:22:40 AM by sturle
 #2024

Some users are waiting for BTC withdraws under the premise of "network congestion" and "blockchain out of sync" from Gox.  Very blatant form of capital controls.
The conspiracy theories run high here.

There is a bug here, and "network congestion" is in fact not a bad way to put it without going through the whole technical explanation.  Remember that MtGox don't use bitcoind to process bitcoin transactions other than for block validation.  It just doesn't scale to the amount of addresses they have (primarily) and transactions they have to keep track of.

Sometimes transactions take a very long time to confirm.  E.g. due to sending a small transaction without fees (user error), or (the BUG) trying to use a coinbase transaction with less than 100 confirmations.  Sometimes transactions fail to confirm for reasons I can't explain either.  You can get all og MtGox's unconfirmed transactions which are at least 2 hours old from the URL below, and use it to verify my claims.  It is updated every 20 minutes: https://data.mtgox.com/api/0/bitcoin_tx.php

When a transaction isn't confirmed after ~24 hours, MtGox tries to solve it by issuing a high fee transaction to itself where it spends one or more of the inputs of the unconfirmed transaction.  This will invalidate the unconfirmed transaction.  When the invalidating transaction has 6 confirmations, MtGox will issue a new transaction for the withdrawal, and this usually confirms at once.  But due to the coinbase bug, this may also be a troublesome transaction.  (The reason why support will ask you to wait 24 hours.)

Usually the list of unconfirmed transactions is short (~100 micropayment transactions with no fees).  This is rebroadcasted in longish intervals, but a rebroadcast doesn't help much because miners don't even forward those transactions with no fees.  Much less mine them.  When the list get very long, this becomes a bottleneck ("network congestion").  And it does for several reasons.  The main reason is the coinbase bug (known for a long time, and they should rally get this fixed), which leads to cancellation transactions, and when the cancellation transaction doesn't confirm, there will be another, etc.

So this is just a bug, not a form of capital controls.  AFAIK everyone have received their BTC withdrawal eventually.  But I am sure you conspiracy theorists won't let facts affect you.

On the other hand it is Sunday today.  Sunday is MagicalTux's coding day.  Let's hope fixing this bug is on top of his TODO list.

Sjå https://bitmynt.no for veksling av bitcoin mot norske kroner.  Trygt, billig, raskt og enkelt sidan 2010.
I buy with EUR and other currencies at a fair market price when you want to sell.  See http://bitmynt.no/eurprice.pl
Warning: "Bitcoin" XT, Classic, Unlimited and the likes are scams. Don't use them, and don't listen to their shills.
sturle
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October 20, 2013, 10:15:53 AM
 #2025

it's simple, you cant withdraw fiat currency out of mtgox, so only way for people to get money out is to buy bitcoins and transfer it out.
This is not true.   I received an EUR transfer myself on Thursday, and domestic JPY is pretty fast.  USD transfers are either extremely delayed or very expensive.

Quote
Last time i will say this - get your bitcoins out of mtgox, it's just not worth the risk to leave it in there - there is no reward only risk.
Unless you want to sell them for EUR or JPY and withdraw the fiat, of course.  You will get much more for your bitcoins at MtGox than almost anywhere else.  Or trade, of course.  I made a pretty sum myself yesterday.

Sjå https://bitmynt.no for veksling av bitcoin mot norske kroner.  Trygt, billig, raskt og enkelt sidan 2010.
I buy with EUR and other currencies at a fair market price when you want to sell.  See http://bitmynt.no/eurprice.pl
Warning: "Bitcoin" XT, Classic, Unlimited and the likes are scams. Don't use them, and don't listen to their shills.
NewLiberty
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October 20, 2013, 10:29:57 AM
 #2026

Just some more experience points to add to the history here:

1 requested $USD withdrawal Sept 4, periodically ask about its status, always get the 'slight delay' excuse email, sometimes they
mention the 5% fee for 'urgent' withdrawals.

2 subsequently reequested more $USD withdrawn, but once I realized it wasn't going to happen, cancelled that and saw my $USD balance restored within hours

As I understand, withdrawals to asian banks are still happening promptly?  If so, what does it take to create a foreign bank account to receive the withdrawn funds (in yuan) ?   

3: Made several BTC withdraw requests last night and got errors saying 'invalid btc address'... the addresses were valid though - when I tried the same one later, it succeeded.

5: Made BTC withdrawal at 10:30AM EST, it's still not received 11 hours later.  Emailed support who just said to wait 24 hours.

6: Made 2 more BTC withdrawals just now, both completed within several minutes.


What I'd like at this point is to find something I can buy and sell, or at least overpay for.... for example, overpay a utility bill in BTC, but get the balance refunded as $USD.   Has anyone found anything to purchase with BTC which can be resold or refunded at the same rate to USd?

Since you asked...
Resellers of our Bitcoin Specie have been getting 30%+ more USD than they pay in Bitcoin.
http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?&_nkw=bitcoin+silver+MSRP what they sell for
http://coldhardca.sh/BitColdHardCash/Rate what they buy for

FREE MONEY1 Bitcoin for Silver and Gold NewLibertyDollar.com and now BITCOIN SPECIE (silver 1 ozt) shows value by QR
Bulk premiums as low as .0012 BTC "BETTER, MORE COLLECTIBLE, AND CHEAPER THAN SILVER EAGLES" 1Free of Government
NamelessOne
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October 20, 2013, 02:27:17 PM
 #2027

Some users are waiting for BTC withdraws under the premise of "network congestion" and "blockchain out of sync" from Gox.  Very blatant form of capital controls.
The conspiracy theories run high here.

There is a bug here, and "network congestion" is in fact not a bad way to put it without going through the whole technical explanation.  Remember that MtGox don't use bitcoind to process bitcoin transactions other than for block validation.  It just doesn't scale to the amount of addresses they have (primarily) and transactions they have to keep track of.

Sometimes transactions take a very long time to confirm.  E.g. due to sending a small transaction without fees (user error), or (the BUG) trying to use a coinbase transaction with less than 100 confirmations.  Sometimes transactions fail to confirm for reasons I can't explain either.  You can get all og MtGox's unconfirmed transactions which are at least 2 hours old from the URL below, and use it to verify my claims.  It is updated every 20 minutes: https://data.mtgox.com/api/0/bitcoin_tx.php

When a transaction isn't confirmed after ~24 hours, MtGox tries to solve it by issuing a high fee transaction to itself where it spends one or more of the inputs of the unconfirmed transaction.  This will invalidate the unconfirmed transaction.  When the invalidating transaction has 6 confirmations, MtGox will issue a new transaction for the withdrawal, and this usually confirms at once.  But due to the coinbase bug, this may also be a troublesome transaction.  (The reason why support will ask you to wait 24 hours.)

Usually the list of unconfirmed transactions is short (~100 micropayment transactions with no fees).  This is rebroadcasted in longish intervals, but a rebroadcast doesn't help much because miners don't even forward those transactions with no fees.  Much less mine them.  When the list get very long, this becomes a bottleneck ("network congestion").  And it does for several reasons.  The main reason is the coinbase bug (known for a long time, and they should rally get this fixed), which leads to cancellation transactions, and when the cancellation transaction doesn't confirm, there will be another, etc.

So this is just a bug, not a form of capital controls.  AFAIK everyone have received their BTC withdrawal eventually.  But I am sure you conspiracy theorists won't let facts affect you.

On the other hand it is Sunday today.  Sunday is MagicalTux's coding day.  Let's hope fixing this bug is on top of his TODO list.
36 hours now and my very large BTC withdrawal is not on the blockchain... wtf... techsupport is on weekend mode. Been scouring IRC for MagicalTux.

sturle
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October 20, 2013, 02:37:00 PM
 #2028

36 hours now and my very large BTC withdrawal is not on the blockchain... wtf... techsupport is on weekend mode. Been scouring IRC for MagicalTux.
Do you see it here?  Just convert it to hex (base64 decode), and you will see your address (in hex) in on of the transactions.  Decode it and check the inputs, etc.

Sjå https://bitmynt.no for veksling av bitcoin mot norske kroner.  Trygt, billig, raskt og enkelt sidan 2010.
I buy with EUR and other currencies at a fair market price when you want to sell.  See http://bitmynt.no/eurprice.pl
Warning: "Bitcoin" XT, Classic, Unlimited and the likes are scams. Don't use them, and don't listen to their shills.
NamelessOne
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October 20, 2013, 02:41:15 PM
 #2029

36 hours now and my very large BTC withdrawal is not on the blockchain... wtf... techsupport is on weekend mode. Been scouring IRC for MagicalTux.
Do you see it here?  Just convert it to hex (base64 decode), and you will see your address (in hex) in on of the transactions.  Decode it and check the inputs, etc.
I will check this out right now and tell you.
tvbcof
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October 20, 2013, 08:32:15 PM
 #2030

Some users are waiting for BTC withdraws under the premise of "network congestion" and "blockchain out of sync" from Gox.  Very blatant form of capital controls.
The conspiracy theories run high here.
...

No shit.  The obvious reason for this is that Mt. Gox does not do a good job of communications.

For my part, a lack of information is a neutral indication of incompetence.  Deliberate mis-information such as what they have produced with their 'several weeks' assertions are no longer neutral.  This has turn me hostile to Mt. Gox over the last few weeks.


sig spam anywhere and self-moderated threads on the pol&soc board are for losers.
bnjmnkent
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October 20, 2013, 08:43:15 PM
 #2031

No shit.  The obvious reason for this is that Mt. Gox does not do a good job of communications.

For my part, a lack of information is a neutral indication of incompetence.  Deliberate mis-information such as what they have produced with their 'several weeks' assertions are no longer neutral.  This has turn me hostile to Mt. Gox over the last few weeks.
A fun thought experiment: Take the information you think is true. Your task is to find Mt.Gox actions that enables all Mt.Gox users
equally to act without destroying the exchange beyond the possibility of repair.

Tell us your findings here.

P.S.: If you are Mt.Gox friendly, you could add that counterparties are interested in aggravating the situation through
altering perception (i.e. through blogs, forum entries ...). Bitcoin-land I love you.
NamelessOne
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October 20, 2013, 09:38:44 PM
 #2032

36 hours now and my very large BTC withdrawal is not on the blockchain... wtf... techsupport is on weekend mode. Been scouring IRC for MagicalTux.
Do you see it here?  Just convert it to hex (base64 decode), and you will see your address (in hex) in on of the transactions.  Decode it and check the inputs, etc.
I used this website to decode the text and then convert it to hex:
http://ostermiller.org/calc/encode.html

Couldn't find my btc address on there. Someone else on IRC suggested using my transaction number that was emailed to me. Didn't find anything. Not sure if I'm doing it correctly. I also converted it directly into hex and same result.
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October 21, 2013, 02:47:26 AM
 #2033

Everything has been resolved for me. My BTC arrived a couple minutes ago. The support staff on the IRC channel were very helpful.
Syke
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October 21, 2013, 02:48:11 AM
 #2034

Some users are waiting for BTC withdraws under the premise of "network congestion" and "blockchain out of sync" from Gox.  Very blatant form of capital controls.
The conspiracy theories run high here.

There is a bug here, and "network congestion" is in fact not a bad way to put it without going through the whole technical explanation.

Actually, it is intentionally deceptive. When they say "network congestion", they are trying to imply that the problem is outside their control, some "congestion" in the real bitcoin network. Nothing could be further from the truth. Their "congestion" is completely inside their own systems.

They have tried to use that excuse on me with bitcoin deposits. My transaction had already received more than 23 confirmations on the live bitcoin blockchain and they still tried to blame "network congestion".

Buy & Hold
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October 21, 2013, 04:53:59 AM
 #2035

Waiting for Euro 10k SEPA transfer for >1 month now. Trusted Gox account. Getting impatient.


My 10k Euro arrived on 18 Oct. Withdrawal date 12 Sep. Phew.

PS: I lost 110 Euro somewhere between MtGox/Poland and my bank in a neighboring country. Can't be SEPA, so MtGox took it? Fees? (haven't used Euro withdrawal before)
megustabtc
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October 21, 2013, 06:34:22 AM
 #2036


My 10k Euro arrived on 18 Oct. Withdrawal date 12 Sep. Phew.

PS: I lost 110 Euro somewhere between MtGox/Poland and my bank in a neighboring country. Can't be SEPA, so MtGox took it? Fees? (haven't used Euro withdrawal before)

As Mt. Gox states on their website, there is a 1% fee for SEPA withdrawals, so that's what you "lost".
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October 21, 2013, 06:36:59 AM
 #2037

Want the highest price for your coins, your going to have to wait.   What a load of bitching and moaning this thread has become.   You've all known there were withdrawal issues for like 6 months.  So stop sending your coins there.   Its not rocket science.

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October 21, 2013, 06:42:38 AM
 #2038

Waiting for Euro 10k SEPA transfer for >1 month now. Trusted Gox account. Getting impatient.


My 10k Euro arrived on 18 Oct. Withdrawal date 12 Sep. Phew.

PS: I lost 110 Euro somewhere between MtGox/Poland and my bank in a neighboring country. Can't be SEPA, so MtGox took it? Fees? (haven't used Euro withdrawal before)


Miracles do happen from time to time. If 1 in 100 request gets filled, then its a good indication they are broke.

How Ripple Rips you: "The founders of Ripple Labs created 100 billion XRP at Ripple's inception. No more can be created according to the rules of the Ripple protocol. Of the 100 billion created, 20 billion XRP were retained by the creators, seeders, venture capital companies and other founders. The remaining 80 billion were given to Ripple Labs. Ripple Labs intends to distribute and sell 55 of that 80 billion XRP to users and strategic partners. Ripple Labs also had a giveaway of under 200 million XRP (0.002% of all XRP) via World Community Grid that was later discontinued.[29] Ripple Labs will retain the remaining 25 billion"
mp420
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October 21, 2013, 07:30:49 AM
 #2039

Waiting for Euro 10k SEPA transfer for >1 month now. Trusted Gox account. Getting impatient.


My 10k Euro arrived on 18 Oct. Withdrawal date 12 Sep. Phew.

PS: I lost 110 Euro somewhere between MtGox/Poland and my bank in a neighboring country. Can't be SEPA, so MtGox took it? Fees? (haven't used Euro withdrawal before)


Miracles do happen from time to time. If 1 in 100 request gets filled, then its a good indication they are broke.


Actually, SEPA withdrawals do work. There is no indication anywhere that there are SEPA withdrawals made before Sep 10 or so that haven't been processed.

International withdrawals, however, are processed so slowly (if at all) that they do not really progress at all. I'd guess they process one day's worth of regular USD withdrawals every month, at most.

Gox is not out of fiat. Even if they have lost most of their fiat reserves, there are still idiots who send fiat to Gox in order to buy (at the 10% premium). And as long as people send fiat to Gox, they make money with the fees. So, even if they're under water, they'll surface eventually.
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October 21, 2013, 08:02:11 AM
 #2040

No shit.  The obvious reason for this is that Mt. Gox does not do a good job of communications.

For my part, a lack of information is a neutral indication of incompetence.  Deliberate mis-information such as what they have produced with their 'several weeks' assertions are no longer neutral.  This has turn me hostile to Mt. Gox over the last few weeks.
A fun thought experiment: Take the information you think is true. Your task is to find Mt.Gox actions that enables all Mt.Gox users
equally to act without destroying the exchange beyond the possibility of repair.

Tell us your findings here.

P.S.: If you are Mt.Gox friendly, you could add that counterparties are interested in aggravating the situation through
altering perception (i.e. through blogs, forum entries ...). Bitcoin-land I love you.

Very difficult for me.  I almost never think anything is true with 100% certainty.  I usually can only assign a probability to something, then shift it around as observations come in.  Anyway, I don't really understand your experiment as stated.  I'd like to though because I delight in fun thought experiments.

I'm much more hostile then friendly as long as they sit on my money and give me false information about when (and if) I can expect it.  OTOH, I had to force the situation in order to get verified, and I was under no false illusion about the severity of their problems and the kinds of difficulties I was very likely to face.  I'd prefer to see Mt. Gox emerge as a viable entity because I think it would be good for Bitcoin, and because I feel that they have done generally positive things for the ecosystem over it's life.  I think it a fair bet that if they survive at all, they will never achieve the dominance that they once commanded.  That is also a good thing in my opinion.


sig spam anywhere and self-moderated threads on the pol&soc board are for losers.
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