MtGox withdrawal delays [Gathering]

[macsga]

Are the paybacks to be made only in JPY now? At the time I made my claim, I specified BTC. I made the Kracken account, etc.

Yes, that's what the plan is. Meanwhile, guys this is not over...
https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-03-07/bitcoins-tokyo-whale-sells-400m-bitcoin-bitcoin-cash

[Tzupy]

Are the paybacks to be made only in JPY now? At the time I made my claim, I specified BTC. I made the Kracken account, etc.

Under bankruptcy rules, only in JPY. If Civil Rehabilitation gets approved, fiat creditors 100% back in JPY, BTC creditors about 4.5% in JPY, and the rest possibly in BTC.

PS. I am disappointed no one merited my "Liquidator Brunt Kobayashi" post, I thought it was funny...

[Micky25]

Are the paybacks to be made only in JPY now? At the time I made my claim, I specified BTC. I made the Kracken account, etc.

Under bankruptcy rules, only in JPY. If Civil Rehabilitation gets approved, fiat creditors 100% back in JPY, BTC creditors about 4.5% in JPY, and the rest possibly in BTC.

PS. I am disappointed no one merited my "Liquidator Brunt Kobayashi" post, I thought it was funny...

I gave you one

The adrenalin rush this guy must have had, seeing the stash diminish by hundreds of millions $ value in a couple of days...

[macsga]

I have my doubts, but just posting here for the sake of argument. Let's hope he's correct.

Yuji Nakamura
‏
Verified account
 
@ynakamura56
 7h7 hours ago
More
People are way off on Gox trustee:
1) He dumped just enough to cover ALL jpy liabilities
2) Confirmed Gox could exit bankruptcy (civil rehab)
3) Has very passive track record

Now that his ass (liabilities) covered, he will just wait for court ruling on civil rehab. No more dumps

3 replies 12 retweets 23 likes
Reply 3   Retweet 12   /quote]

https://twitter.com/ynakamura56/status/971911070691422209

[freedomno1]

Hold ma beer...

Shakes head if there are any doubts that Mtgox is the gift that keeps on giving this is the icing on the cake ha-ha
I appreciate his sense of humor and the humor that the second largest hack on an exchange coincheck was also in Japan.
Albeit at least that one is still functioning.

[Tzupy]

Summary of Questions & Answers by the Trustee, copied from the mtgox-creditors site:

Q1. What is the meaning of the following terms stated in the examination report submitted by the examiner on February 28, 2018?

– “the bankruptcy creditors (especially those having monetary claims corresponding to bankruptcy claims) who filed proofs of claims in the bankruptcy proceedings of Mt. Gox”;

– “the benefits already expected to be obtained in terms of the bankruptcy proceedings”; and

– “measures taken to ensure the benefits of the bankruptcy creditors”.

A1. It is the examiner that wrote the examination report. Therefore, we [the bankruptcy trustee] cannot answer regarding its contents. We will discuss and consider the future direction with the bankruptcy court.

Q2. Have you made a specific plan about the “measures taken to ensure the benefits of the bankruptcy creditors” stated in the examination report? Do you intend to make any effort for the commencement of civil rehabilitation proceedings as the bankruptcy trustee?

A2. We will discuss and consider the “measures taken to ensure the benefits of the bankruptcy creditors” with the bankruptcy court. We understand the examiner’s concerns regarding the issue. Therefore, we are ready to hear suggestions from creditors.

Q3. When the content of the “measures taken to ensure the benefits of the bankruptcy creditors” has been decided, will we have the opportunity to receive an explanation beforehand as creditors? Will I have a chance to state my opinion as a major creditor?

A3. We will notify the creditors of our plan once it is determined. We will hear the creditors’ opinions, and we would appreciate it if you could send us your written opinion.

Q4. When and how did you sell BTC and BCH? What was the difference between the sales figures for BTC and BCH? Have you obtained any information from the U.S. Department of Justice on the disappearance of BTC?

A4. We sold them at the market price through the cryptocurrency exchange service provider from December 2017 through February 2018. The difference between the sales figures for BTC and BCH was just the timing of suspending sales; therefore, we did not have any particular intention. We have not obtained any information from the U.S. Department of Justice.

Q5. Please explain the current situation concerning the bankruptcy claims assessment procedure applied for by CoinLab, Inc. Do you have any plans to pursue the liability of officers?

A5. We do not have any specific ideas on settling the case for the time being, but we may consider that depending on the future situation. We did consider suing Mr. Karpelès, but now it does not seem to be productive because he has gone bankrupt.

Q6. Why don’t you distribute funds to the creditors even though there is enough cash in the bankruptcy estate?

A6 We obtained the cash recently by selling BTC and BCH. With respect to distribution, there is an issue concerning assessing the amount of BTC creditors’ claims; therefore, it is difficult to determine whether proceeding with the distribution process would be desirable for the creditors.

Q7. I think it is unjust to distribute the remaining assets to the shareholders of Mt. Gox. Why don’t you proceed with the civil rehabilitation proceedings as Mt. Gox’s bankruptcy trustee?

A7. We apologize if we have previously provided a misleading explanation, but we do not oppose transferring these bankruptcy proceedings to civil rehabilitation proceedings. We understand the examiner’s concerns on the issue; however, it is the Tokyo District Court that has to decide whether to commence civil rehabilitation proceedings.

Q8. I think it has taken far too long to proceed with the bankruptcy proceedings. Is this due to the bankruptcy trustee neglecting its duties?

A8. We recently obtained more than 40 billion yen (400 million dollars ) by selling BTC and BCH. With respect to distribution, there is an issue concerning assessing the amount of BTC creditors’ claims; therefore, it is difficult to determine whether proceeding with the distribution process would be desirable for the creditors.

Q9. I have never heard about the sale of BTC and BCH. Why did you sell them when the market price of BTC crashed? Why did you sell them in such a hurry? Is selling BTC and other assets part of the “measures taken to ensure the benefits of the bankruptcy creditors” as pointed out by the examiner?

A9. From the outset of the bankruptcy proceedings, we informed all relevant parties that we were going to sell BTC and BCH at the appropriate time. We discussed this with the Tokyo District Court and decided when we should sell them. Some creditors were of the opinion that we should sell BTC and BCH soon. We believe that obtaining a lot of funds made it possible for us to take the “measures taken to ensure the benefits of the bankruptcy creditors”.

[SolarSilver]

A9. From the outset of the bankruptcy proceedings, we informed all relevant parties that we were going to sell BTC and BCH at the appropriate time. We discussed this with the Tokyo District Court and decided when we should sell them. Some creditors were of the opinion that we should sell BTC and BCH soon. We believe that obtaining a lot of funds made it possible for us to take the “measures taken to ensure the benefits of the bankruptcy creditors”.

I wonder who all relevant parties are, is there a list?

As a creditor I don't remember being asked my opinion if it was appropriate to crash the market. Was it in my benefit as a bankruptcy creditor? No.

Who decided on how to sell these BTC and BCH, why not use an OTC transaction?

[macsga]

According to this guy here, we're done dumping.

Matt Odell@matt_odell
4/ Site setup for tracking the remaining 162k bitcoin under Mt Gox trustee's control: http://gaelb.alwaysdata.net/MTgox_watch_CW/index.html

Now that he has successfully sold enough bitcoin & bitcoin cash to cover the ~$414M owed to claimants, he is probably done selling. No coins have moved since Feb 5th.

https://twitter.com/matt_odell/status/972193512849584129

[Tzupy]

A9. From the outset of the bankruptcy proceedings, we informed all relevant parties that we were going to sell BTC and BCH at the appropriate time. We discussed this with the Tokyo District Court and decided when we should sell them. Some creditors were of the opinion that we should sell BTC and BCH soon. We believe that obtaining a lot of funds made it possible for us to take the “measures taken to ensure the benefits of the bankruptcy creditors”.

I wonder who all relevant parties are, is there a list?

As a creditor I don't remember being asked my opinion if it was appropriate to crash the market. Was it in my benefit as a bankruptcy creditor? No.

Who decided on how to sell these BTC and BCH, why not use an OTC transaction?

I certainly don't feel like a "relevant party", but as screwed party. But we should be aware that he could have screwed us much harder.
About his decision to market dump, Jesse Powell wrote this:

For the record, Kraken was asked many months ago for advice on how to sell a large block of coins. Our answer was:

1. don't sell coins
2. If you have to, do it with an auction, which Kraken can facilitate
3. If you want to do it more privately, let Kraken's OTC desk broker it for you

We were explicit about not dumping a large amount of coins on the market. Unfortunately, it looks like the trustee made their own decision or was taking advice from elsewhere -- maybe whatever exchange they dumped those coins on. We had zero knowledge of these sales happening until it was announced at the recent creditors' meeting. Unfortunately, we have no visibility in to where, how or why the trustee sold those coins, nor whether any precautions were taken to prevent front running or self-dealing. Hopefully, the trustee will make it clear what their process was and put the questions to rest.

https://www.reddit.com/r/mtgoxinsolvency/comments/82ykgu/re_the_dumpening/

[SolarSilver]

I certainly don't feel like a "relevant party", but as screwed party. But we should be aware that he could have screwed us much harder.

Maybe next time they can just sell off 100% of the altcoins and not any of the BTC ;-)

[STT]

It's not right to attribute malice to his deeds, but as far as it concerns me, I'd prefer my coins' private keys (since they can now cover everyone's coins). The previous decision of fiat reparations should be altered. I didn't have many coins held in there, but this is a bad joke for people with lot of coins trapped. So, I agree. Pretty poor performance so far.

That really is a good point.  You should receive the private key to enable access to the forked chains.  Surely the liquidation will involve consideration of all possible asset value via forks or it is negligent.

Unfortunately incompetence is far more common then malice like you say, which doesnt make it any better if they do ignore value that way.   I would be surprised if that were the case, they surely have advice on such matters.

 BTC is a token and they are liquidating it into dollars which is not the same but perhaps all they can achieve now.  'fire sale'

[macsga]

In case you missed it:
https://www.reddit.com/r/btc/comments/89o171/im_mark_karpel%C3%A8s_exceo_of_bankrupt_mtgox_ask_me/

Dear community,

Many of you know or remember me, especially recently since the MtGox bankruptcy has been allegedly linked with Bitcoin price drops in December 2017 to February 2018. Since taking over the most active Bitcoin exchange in 2011, I ran MtGox until filing for civil rehabilitation on February 28th 2014 (which became bankruptcy less than 2 months later) because a large amount of Bitcoins went missing. Since then, four years have passed, and MtGox is still in bankruptcy today. I’ve been arrested, released under bail after a little less than one year, and am now trying to assist MtGox getting into civil rehabilitation.

I did my best trying to grow the ecosystem by running the biggest exchange at the time. It had big problems but still managed to hang in there. For a while. A quite long while, even, while the rest of the ecosystem caught up. At the end of the day, the methods I chose to try to get MtGox out of its trouble ended up being insufficient, insufficiently executed, or plain wrong.

I know I didn't handle the last, stressful days of the outdrawn and painful Gox collapse very well. I can only be humble about that in hindsight. Once again, I’m sorry.

Japanese bankruptcy law has a particularly nasty outcome here, and I want to address this up front. As creditors claims were registered, those claims were registered in the valuation of Japanese Yen on the bankruptcy date. That's the only way Japanese bankruptcy law can work (most bankruptcy laws around the world operate this way for that matter). This means that the claims can be paid back in full, and there will still be over 160,000 bitcoin and bitcoin cash in assets in the Gox estate. The way bankruptcy law works is that if there are any assets remaining after the creditors have been paid in full, then those assets are distributed to shareholders as part of the liquidation.

That's the only way any bankruptcy law can reasonably work. And yet, in this case, it produces an egregiously distasteful outcome in that the shareholders of MtGox would walk away with the value of over 160,000 bitcoin as a result of what happened.

I don't want this. I don't want this billion dollars. From day one I never expected to receive anything from this bankruptcy. The fact that today this is a possibility is an aberration and I believe it is my responsibility to make sure it doesn’t happen. One of the ways to do this would be civil rehabilitation, and as it seems most creditors agree with this, I am doing my best to help make it happen. I do not want to become instantly rich. I do not ask for forgiveness. I just want to see this end as soon as possible with everyone receiving their share of what they had on MtGox so everyone, myself included, can get some closure.

I’m an engineer at heart. I want to build things. I like seeing what I build being useful, and people being happy using what I build. My drive, from day one, has been to push the limits of what is technically possible, and this is the main reason I liked and have been involved with Bitcoin in the first place. When I took over MtGox, I never imagined things would end this way and I am forever sorry for everything that’s taken place and all the effect it had on everyone involved.

Hopefully, I can make what I’ve learned in this experience useful to the community as a whole, so there can at least be something positive in the end.

Ask me anything you like.

[WaffleMaster]

Wow that's pretty amazing to be honest. That 1.3 billion dollars could actually be shared across all holders who lost it sounds like. Mark would likely still receive a decent amount, because exchanges take their fees in BTC, so his/MtGox's account would likely have a decent share of the money to claim back.

Let's be honest, he's probably doing this so the Yakuza don't make him disappear 

[Tzupy]

Wow that's pretty amazing to be honest. That 1.3 billion dollars could actually be shared across all holders who lost it sounds like. Mark would likely still receive a decent amount, because exchanges take their fees in BTC, so his/MtGox's account would likely have a decent share of the money to claim back.

Let's be honest, he's probably doing this so the Yakuza don't make him disappear 

Karpeles wrote on Reddit that he has no MtGox claim, so even if there were about 100k BTC from fees, he doesn't expect any financial reward  from Civil Rehabilitation (I specifically asked him some time ago).
I suspect he would like CR to succeed, currently available funds be distributed, and then later he might recover some of the stolen BTC from Vinnik.

[Tzupy]

An update from MtGox Legal creditors:
https://www.mtgoxlegal.com/2018/05/18/update-18-mar-18/

We originally calculated that the sale of the 16k coins that moved should be enough to cover all assets. While it’s regrettable that the court/trustee considers they need cash to cover all the assets before moving forward, we concluded there’s nothing we can do about it. We looked at ways to challenge it legally but there was nothing we could practically do.

The further movement of 8k coins caused some alarm as some people thought it implied that the Trustee was on track to liquidate everything. Our lawyer’s view is that that is not the case, but that we should recalculate to allow for delay payment interest. The bankruptcy statute allows for 5 or 6% pa. So the trustee will need at least 20% more cash than we had originally considered. Again it’s disappointing that so many coins need to be sold, and we can only hope the trustee is getting a good price for them.

He has said that he is selling them in a way that will not affect the market. This suggests he’s selling them to a holder, such as an EFT type institution. We will find out in the course of time.

Our lawyer has met with the trustee and has had conversations with his team. He’s asked me not to divulge the details he shared with me, but the information he gave me left me confident that CR will be approved. The Trustee has to arrange Gox’s finances in such a way that meet the conditions set out by Ito, and the court can then approve CR. There seems to be willing from all parties involved, but it will take some more time, and probably the sale of more bitcoins.

As well as stockpiling the requisite amount of cash, the Trustee also has to establish a Trust vehicle to hold the assets that flow into CR. Once this has done, the conditions for approving CR should be met, and the court can then give the green light. The suggestion is that all creditors vote on being paid through the bankruptcy, (better for fiat claims) or allowing your claim to roll over into the Trust, which will then receive the assets left over after fiat claims have been settled, and distribute them under a CR plan (through an exchange or directly with the help of a third party bespoke crypto payment platform and bank transfers).

[nanobtc]

Good news, that at least things are happening, thanks for the update, Tzupy. As far as "third party bespoke crypto payment platform" does this refer to Kracken? At one time they were going to be the official distributor of Gox BTC.

[Tzupy]

Commencement of Civil Rehabilitation Proceedings of Mt.Gox ( from https://mtgox-creditors.com/ )
https://www.mtgox.com/img/pdf/20180622_announcement_en.pdf

Today, on June 22, 2018, the Tokyo District Court ordered commencement of civil rehabilitation proceedings regarding Mt. Gox.   Accordingly, enormous assets, which were to be distributed to Mt. Gox’s shareholders under the bankruptcy proceedings, will be returned to creditors of Mt.Gox in civil rehabilitation proceedings.  This is the creditors’ victory.  Please see “https://www.mtgox.com/ ” for the trustee’s website.

However, this victory has not been realized yet.  The victory will come to creditors when Mt. Gox makes payment to creditors and  creditors actually receive such payment.

To that end, a rehabilitation plan to certainly and promptly realize creditors’ rights should be prepared, approved at the creditors’ meeting, and approved by the court.

A rehabilitation plan, which provides creditors rights in the proceedings,  will be primarily prepared by the trustee; therefore, creditors’ opinions will not always be reflected to the rehabilitation plan prepared by the trustee.

We would like to reflect creditors’ opinions to the rehabilitation plan by proposing our opinions or plan to the trustee.  Under Japanese civil rehabilitation act, a creditor is entitled to submit his or her plan if  the court permits.

Therefore, we are now working to prepare for the separate article entitled, “Outline of Our Rehabilitation Plan.”   We would like to hear creditors’ opinions on the outline.  Creditors will send us e-mails to “mtgoxforcreditors at-mark gmail.com” (please change “at-mark” to @ when you send email), or letters.

[samson]

This is good news for all the MtGox creditors, Civil Rehabilitation is approved.

It might take another year but we should get back our fair share.

[European Central Bank]

congratulations to anyone who got caught up in this. it must be a very good feeling to know that something will come out of it eventually. i hope everyone hung in there.

i read elsewhere that civil rehabilitation is a super rare option, but the whole thing was a super rare case.

[miauwmiauw]

Does this still keep the option to receive Bitcoin back instead of fiat currency? i don't understand the email they send me.