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Author Topic: We need to break the loop FIAT->BTC->FIAT  (Read 3746 times)
Nova!
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April 19, 2013, 10:47:27 PM
 #21

We need to break the cycle of JPY/USD/JPY these companies are only buying USD to purchase things that are made in Japan and priced in Yen.  It would be better if they just used Yen in the first place.

See it works.

BTC is one medium of exchange among many, many others.  It's price is in fluctuation right now due to currency manipulation made possible by the fact that a single exchange controls over 80% of the market because it has become the defacto standard.  Want to stabilize the price of bit coin?  Use multiple exchanges.  We shouldn't all be sitting on one exchange, it's putting all our eggs in one (admittedly very honest and very well run and secure) basket.

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April 19, 2013, 10:55:49 PM
 #22

We have to make people want to list their prices in BTC. That means it has to have some semblance of stability. Otherwise it can be nothing more than a proxy for actually stable currencies. Deflation itself isn't the solution or the problem, it's stability. If BTC gained 5% of its value every day, it still wouldn't work as a currency because the value isn't stable. It's gotta do something like only gain 5-10% of its value every year so that people can know the value of a Bitcoin. We need to be able to go to the store and have an expectation for how many BTC a loaf of bread costs without it changing every week.

Without stability, BTC can never stand on its own.

This is an interesting point to bring up, I have a number of web projects under development and although I have limited coding skills in PHP etc I would like to provide users with ability to see BTC prices in real time. As of yet I have not found a system that does this, are there any systems that can change prices in real time relative to average Bitcoin value? At the moment I cannot list a product for BTC2 when a week later those BTC2 decrease in value by 30%. Merchants do need stability but entrepreneus also need adequate addons to upgrade existing sites, at the moment it is a bit to Wild West.
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April 19, 2013, 11:09:54 PM
 #23

This guy ( http://armstrongeconomics.files.wordpress.com/2012/05/manual-models.pdf ) hasn't said anything specific about bitcoins but here's something he said I find applies:

Quote
In markets, the Market Phase-TransitionTM explains the abrupt movements in price that gather
the majority of participants and causes them to become exuberant expecting that there is
nothing but blue skies ahead. We can track the bullish-bearish consensus and see how it moves
between two extremes. However, what is happening is a Market Phase-TransitionTM insofar as
in market terminology we are changing states from bullish to bearish or vice versa. This change
in state is certainly not linear. It very much follows the same general course as boiling water.
Notice this is not a steady linear progression.

The market phase transition bitcoin just passed through is from in the shadows to in the limelight. So price has just gradually exited stage left @ around 100 bucks a coin thank you very much bitcoin. We await act 2.
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April 20, 2013, 03:25:46 AM
 #24

....me just trying to figure out how to stabilize bitcoin so that it can be used as described, It obviously was supposed to spread the wealth among the population, with greater and greater automation occuring the wealth of the world is being concentrated into the hands of the few causing massive inflation and instability in the economic system., the p2p Bitcoin system was supposed to counter that. ....
Man, that crazy talk.  But I'll play.

Please support the claim with direct quotes from the source.
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April 20, 2013, 05:26:20 AM
Last edit: April 20, 2013, 03:53:15 PM by jdbtracker
 #25

....me just trying to figure out how to stabilize bitcoin so that it can be used as described, It obviously was supposed to spread the wealth among the population, with greater and greater automation occuring the wealth of the world is being concentrated into the hands of the few causing massive inflation and instability in the economic system., the p2p Bitcoin system was supposed to counter that. ....
Man, that crazy talk.  But I'll play.

Please support the claim with direct quotes from the source.

The proof-of-work(facts) also solves the problem of determining representation in majority decision
making. If the majority were based on one-IP-address-one-vote(representative), it could be subverted by anyone
able to allocate(control) many IPs(representatives). Proof-of-work(facts) is essentially one-CPU-one-vote(information). The majority
decision is represented by the longest chain
(group concensus), which has the greatest proof-of-work(facts) effort invested
in it.

If a majority of CPU(information) power is controlled by honest nodes(people), the honest chain(group) will grow the
fastest and outpace any competing chains(groups). To modify a past block(historical event), an attacker would have to
redo the proof-of-work(facts) of the block(historical event) and all blocks(historical events) after it and then catch up with and surpass the
work of the honest nodes(people). We will show later that the probability of a slower attacker catching up
diminishes exponentially as subsequent blocks(historical events) are added.

5. Network

The steps to run the network are as follows:

1) New transactions(information) are broadcast to all nodes(people).
2) Each node(person) collects new transactions(information) into a block(historical event).
3) Each node(person) works on finding a difficult proof-of-work(fact) for its block(historical event).
4) When a node(person) finds a proof-of-work(fact), it broadcasts the block(historical events) to all nodes(people).
5) Nodes(people) accept the block(historical event) only if all transactions(information) in it are valid and not already spent(known).
6) Nodes(people) express their acceptance of the block(historical event) by working on creating the next block(historical event) in the
chain(group), using the hash(logic) of the accepted block(historical event) as the previous hash(logic).

6. Incentive
By convention, the first transaction(information) in a block(historical event) is a special transaction(information) that starts a new coin(trust) owned
by the creator of the block(historical event).
This adds an incentive for nodes(people) to support the network, and provides
a way to initially distribute coins(trust) into circulation, since there is no central authority to issue them.

The steady addition of a constant of amount of new coins(trust) is analogous to gold(value) miners expending
resources to add gold(value) to circulation. In our case, it is CPU(information) time and electricity(effort) that is expended.
The incentive can also be funded with transaction(information) fees(value).
If the output(meaning) value of a transaction(information) is
less than its input(utility) value, the difference is a transaction(information) fee(value) that is added to the incentive value of
the block(historical event) containing the transaction(information).
Once a predetermined number of coins(trust) have entered
circulation, the incentive can transition entirely to transaction(information) fees(value) and be completely inflation(manipulation)
free.The incentive may help encourage nodes(people) to stay honest. If a greedy attacker is able to
assemble more CPU(information) power than all the honest nodes(people), he would have to choose between using it
to defraud people by stealing back his payments(values), or using it to generate new coins(trust).
He ought to
find it more profitable to play by the rules, such rules that favour him with more new coins(trust) than
everyone else combined, than to undermine the system and the validity of his own wealth.


I could be wrong though, this is just what I read into it... I've read the damn thing 10-20 times and the wording Satoshi uses was bothering me throughout the paper. I don't think this thing is describing just a digital financial system, it seems to describe how to maintain information integrity over a digital communication channel for the purpose of collective concensus.


A purely peer-to-peer version of electronic cash would allow online
payments to be sent directly from one party to another without going through a
financial institution.
Digital signatures provide part of the solution, but the main
benefits are lost if a trusted third party is still required to prevent double-spending.
We propose a solution to the double-spending problem using a peer-to-peer network.

The network timestamps transactions by hashing them into an ongoing chain of
hash-based proof-of-work, forming a record that cannot be changed without redoing
the proof-of-work. The longest chain not only serves as proof of the sequence of
events witnessed
, but proof that it came from the largest pool of CPU power. As
long as a majority of CPU power is controlled by nodes that are not cooperating to
attack the network, they'll generate the longest chain and outpace attackers.
The
network itself requires minimal structure. Messages are broadcast on a best effort
basis, and nodes can leave and rejoin the network at will, accepting the longest
proof-of-work chain as proof of what happened while they were gone.


These costs and payment uncertainties
can be avoided in person by using physical currency, but no mechanism exists to make payments
over a communications channel without a trusted party.


The system is secure as long as honest nodes collectively control more CPU power than any
cooperating group of attacker nodes.

The problem of course is the payee can't verify that one of the owners did not double-spend
the coin. A common solution is to introduce a trusted central authority, or mint, that checks every
transaction for double spending. After each transaction, the coin must be returned to the mint to
issue a new coin, and only coins issued directly from the mint are trusted not to be double-spent.
The problem with this solution is that the fate of the entire money system depends on the
company running the mint, with every transaction having to go through them, just like a bank.


The only way to confirm the absence of a transaction is to be aware of all transactions.
In the mint based model, the mint was aware of all transactions and
decided which arrived first.
To accomplish this without a trusted party, transactions must be
publicly announced

A timestamp server works by taking a
hash of a block of items to be time-stamped and widely publishing the hash, such as in a
newspaper or Usenet post The timestamp proves that the data must have existed at the
time,

The traditional banking model achieves a level of privacy by limiting access to information to the
parties involved and the trusted third party. The necessity to announce all transactions publicly
precludes this method, but privacy can still be maintained by breaking the flow of information in
another place: by keeping public keys anonymous.
The public can see that someone is sending
an amount to someone else, but without information linking the transaction to anyone.

This is similar to the level of information released by stock exchanges, where the time and size of
individual trades, the "tape", is made public, but without telling who the parties were.


We consider the scenario of an attacker trying to generate an alternate chain faster than the honest
chain. Even if this is accomplished, it does not throw the system open to arbitrary changes, such
as creating value out of thin air or taking money that never belonged to the attacker. Nodes are
not going to accept an invalid transaction as payment, and honest nodes will never accept a block
containing them. An attacker can only try to change one of his own transactions to take back
money he recently spent.


12. Conclusion

We have proposed a system for electronic transactions without relying on trust. We started with
the usual framework of coins made from digital signatures, which provides strong control of
ownership, but is incomplete without a way to prevent double-spending. To solve this, we
proposed a peer-to-peer network using proof-of-work to record a public history of transactions
that quickly becomes computationally impractical for an attacker to change if honest nodes
control a majority of CPU power.
The network is robust in its unstructured simplicity. Nodes
work all at once with little coordination. They do not need to be identified, since messages are
not routed to any particular place and only need to be delivered on a best effort basis. Nodes can
leave and rejoin the network at will, accepting the proof-of-work chain as proof of what
happened while they were gone.
They vote with their CPU power, expressing their acceptance of
valid blocks by working on extending them and rejecting invalid blocks by refusing to work on
them. Any needed rules and incentives can be enforced with this consensus mechanism.

If you think my efforts are worth something; I'll keep on keeping on.
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April 21, 2013, 04:19:48 PM
 #26

....me just trying to figure out how to stabilize bitcoin so that it can be used as described, It obviously was supposed to spread the wealth among the population, with greater and greater automation occuring the wealth of the world is being concentrated into the hands of the few causing massive inflation and instability in the economic system., the p2p Bitcoin system was supposed to counter that. ....
Man, that crazy talk.  But I'll play.

Please support the claim with direct quotes from the source.

The proof-of-work(facts) also solves the problem...

What your lengthy reply was was an iteration of the general theory of and use of bitcoin.   What it was not was support for your person opinions which I commented on and which I repeat in part.

It obviously was supposed to spread the wealth among the population, with greater and greater automation occuring the wealth of the world is being concentrated into the hands of the few causing massive inflation and instability in the economic system., the p2p Bitcoin system was supposed to counter that. ....

By the way, I'm NOT criticizing your opinions.  I'm just saying they don't follow logically from the bitcoin model.  Neither do we have direct evidence to support your views.  Such as "Nakamoto SAID..."

No, he didn't say.

No, it does not follow.

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April 21, 2013, 05:45:23 PM
Last edit: April 22, 2013, 07:19:42 PM by jdbtracker
 #27

....me just trying to figure out how to stabilize bitcoin so that it can be used as described, It obviously was supposed to spread the wealth among the population, with greater and greater automation occuring the wealth of the world is being concentrated into the hands of the few causing massive inflation and instability in the economic system., the p2p Bitcoin system was supposed to counter that. ....
Man, that crazy talk.  But I'll play.

Please support the claim with direct quotes from the source.

The proof-of-work(facts) also solves the problem...

What your lengthy reply was was an iteration of the general theory of and use of bitcoin.   What it was not was support for your person opinions which I commented on and which I repeat in part.

It obviously was supposed to spread the wealth among the population, with greater and greater automation occuring the wealth of the world is being concentrated into the hands of the few causing massive inflation and instability in the economic system., the p2p Bitcoin system was supposed to counter that. ....

By the way, I'm NOT criticizing your opinions.  I'm just saying they don't follow logically from the bitcoin model.  Neither do we have direct evidence to support your views.  Such as "Nakamoto SAID..."

No, he didn't say.

No, it does not follow.



Sorry... I got carried away with something else I noticed in it, I encourage people to question me, I learn better that way.

I was reading Satoshi's paper to find all the peer to peer references, this is what I was thinking of... why didn't Satoshi just use a encryption for each coin in circulation with a Trimmetric Encryption, three keys.  one for the bank that owns it assigning them as the Institution in possession of it, a public key for transferring it between institutions and a third key that would be an extra key assigned to the possessor of the coin?
 
Since the system is running from the banks you would have to connect to your bank sooner or later. Since every single coin is encrypted and never leaves the bank and just hops from bank to bank with new encryption keys at every level no need for peer to peer communication. and each coin is encrypted so it becomes really insane to try to steal a large amount of them, you could only rob one person at a time and even then you have to break the bank branches encryption to get rid of which bank owns them not to mention re-assigning it to the attackers institution; plus if the banks Firewalls/Network has no record of that coin, it can effectively deduce that it is a fake; and it scales too, you can add as many keys as you need for multiple parties, making it extremely difficult to falsify.

I can show you how but I won't; I like Bitcoin.

there are a lot of ways to re-invent the wheel and keep it completely centralized.

 If he had done that it wouldn't of had to be Peer to peer, anyone trying to break the individual code of each coin would find it inpractical to do since it would take weeks just to falsify 1 coin.

i simply deduced it from all the mention of peer-to-peer that's all.

My thinking is; Why would Satoshi program the client to pay out a standard fee of .0005BTC for every transaction? I think he wanted to spread the wealth and figured the transaction would number in the quadrillions.

This is simply speculation on my part, guessing, trying to understand what this Person or Group did. I just can't imagine them doing this and thinking that people would expend resources for free...why would they code it in there?

I love this community! Bitcoin is so deep on so many levels! so many puzzles!

If you think my efforts are worth something; I'll keep on keeping on.
I don't believe in IQ, only in Determination.
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April 22, 2013, 11:42:28 PM
 #28

....me just trying to figure out how to stabilize bitcoin so that it can be used as described, It obviously was supposed to spread the wealth among the population, with greater and greater automation occuring the wealth of the world is being concentrated into the hands of the few causing massive inflation and instability in the economic system., the p2p Bitcoin system was supposed to counter that. ....
Man, that crazy talk.  But I'll play.

Please support the claim with direct quotes from the source.

The proof-of-work(facts) also solves the problem...

What your lengthy reply was was an iteration of the general theory of and use of bitcoin.   What it was not was support for your person opinions which I commented on and which I repeat in part.

It obviously was supposed to spread the wealth among the population, with greater and greater automation occuring the wealth of the world is being concentrated into the hands of the few causing massive inflation and instability in the economic system., the p2p Bitcoin system was supposed to counter that. ....

By the way, I'm NOT criticizing your opinions.  I'm just saying they don't follow logically from the bitcoin model.  Neither do we have direct evidence to support your views.  Such as "Nakamoto SAID..."

No, he didn't say.

No, it does not follow.



Sorry... I got carried away with something else I noticed in it, I encourage people to question me, I learn better that way.

I was reading Satoshi's paper to find all the peer to peer references, this is what I was thinking of... why didn't Satoshi just use a encryption for each coin in circulation with a Trimmetric Encryption, three keys.  one for the bank that owns it assigning them as the Institution in possession of it, a public key for transferring it between institutions and a third key that would be an extra key assigned to the possessor of the coin?
 
Since the system is running from the banks you would have to connect to your bank sooner or later. Since every single coin is encrypted and never leaves the bank and just hops from bank to bank with new encryption keys at every level no need for peer to peer communication. and each coin is encrypted so it becomes really insane to try to steal a large amount of them, you could only rob one person at a time and even then you have to break the bank branches encryption to get rid of which bank owns them not to mention re-assigning it to the attackers institution; plus if the banks Firewalls/Network has no record of that coin, it can effectively deduce that it is a fake; and it scales too, you can add as many keys as you need for multiple parties, making it extremely difficult to falsify.

I can show you how but I won't; I like Bitcoin.

there are a lot of ways to re-invent the wheel and keep it completely centralized.

 If he had done that it wouldn't of had to be Peer to peer, anyone trying to break the individual code of each coin would find it inpractical to do since it would take weeks just to falsify 1 coin.

i simply deduced it from all the mention of peer-to-peer that's all.

My thinking is; Why would Satoshi program the client to pay out a standard fee of .0005BTC for every transaction? I think he wanted to spread the wealth and figured the transaction would number in the quadrillions.

This is simply speculation on my part, guessing, trying to understand what this Person or Group did. I just can't imagine them doing this and thinking that people would expend resources for free...why would they code it in there?

I love this community! Bitcoin is so deep on so many levels! so many puzzles!
OKay, I understand this commentary quite well.  This follows a from b from c and so forth.

My thinking on the transaction fee would be just to place a small incentive on peer to peer database maintenance.  Why didn't he include banks?  We could conjecture that he found them to have been and be capable of being subjugated to the will of the powers of state (even in cases where the banks are not owned and operated by the state - many countries that is the case).

Let me continue this line of thought a moment.  If banks had been involved in the equation, would you or any one on this forum be here now?

NO!!!

So the rule set would then have had to be top down implemented by a government or the UN or some such corruption.  And they will try to do this - they will try to implement electronic money.  But the problem with that is that every single thing you do would be known by the government.  Lots of people would have a problem with that.

I rather think that he considered the possibility that a equation and system set might cause the light to go on in peoples' heads that they could take personal control of the problem of money.  But that's just my WAG.  Nakamoto feel free to private message me and provide input (LOL).

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April 23, 2013, 01:51:05 AM
 #29

LOL!  I agree, I am happy with how things turned out, a Currency by the People, For the People.

I think Bitcoin has street cred since it's inception fully supported and evolved to the peoples tastes. Smiley  Long Live Bitcoin!!

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April 23, 2013, 03:09:22 AM
 #30

Everybody is speaking about how BTC is deflationary... Well, didn't you see how its value just got from $266 to $100 in hours? What was that, the USD deflating?

We mustn't fool ourselves. Bitcoin is not going to be truly deflationary nor a safe store of value if we don't break the loop. While the "value" of Bitcoin is established with its exchange rate for FIAT... We are just fucked, and it will just be a TOY for speculation, while being very vulnerable to attacks from its enemies.

Think about the most likely attack to BTC from its natural enemy, the FED: they own fiat money, and if they feel BTC is a danger for them, they can just pump it to the fucking sky to crash it to almost $0. Explain then about how it is a "store of value" to those who lose everything. How do we avoid that? Breaking the fucking loop FIAT->BTC->FIAT.

We need business that set their prices in BTC, and pay all their costs (including salaries) in BTC. We need to break the laces with fiat money. When we do that, then we will have a really deflationary currency that will truly serve as a store of value. Until BTC's value is related with the exchange rate with fiat... We are fucked, and it will be useless as soon as the FED decides it has to go.

Dude. Get Real. What you say is an Utopia. Like the Unicorns, Heaven and Communism.
The BTC fell from 266 to 55 for one reason - people made a lot of money from it, and decided to cash out. Of course they did not cash everything out at 266, as each sell order lowered the price. And it was natural and expected to see it fall.

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April 23, 2013, 08:25:46 AM
 #31

Breaking the loop is most directly tied to adoption of the bitcoin Economy.

Loop:  FIAT->BTC->FIAT->Consumption

Broken loop: FIAT->BTC->Consumption

(That means paying for products directly with bitcoins, which leaves nationalized currencies out of the process entirely.)

With the Foodler news, we've got more ability than ever to spend our bitcoins, but of course then we have a new problem as the price of bitcoin rises...

Human greed. It's harder to let go of any bitcoins that you bought at low prices when the price of bitcoin is now higher and climbing... Even just a few millibtc, our greed tells us that every millibtc is one day going to be worth thousands of dollars and what would it hurt if we kept it in our wallets and just hoarded every satoshi that came our way?

Sadly, a lot.

It hurts because if we're not spending our bitcoin for products, then the loop is complete again. Hoarding is like a pause button, but if everyone has their wallet 'on pause' then merchants aren't going to be making a profit by taking bitcoin and the infrastructure for bitcoin's growth never gets built.

What we need now is some kind of promise or pledge, where we raise awareness and get every bitcoin user to pledge to spend as much bitcoin he can inside the legitimate bitcoin economy.

If we all spend some from time to time, never sending it back to our nationalized currencies, then bitcoin's future is assured.

Anyone want to design the little pin? Perhaps something with digital code all over it?

We desperately need to raise awareness to this issue if we ever want the price of a bitcoin to stabilize.  

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April 23, 2013, 09:14:07 AM
 #32

I'm going to order Pizza, I'm starving!

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April 24, 2013, 04:40:56 PM
 #33

LOL!  I agree, I am happy with how things turned out, a Currency by the People, For the People.

I think Bitcoin has street cred since it's inception fully supported and evolved to the peoples tastes. Smiley  Long Live Bitcoin!!
But if it became accepted by governments, would we need to find something else?

Hmm....
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April 24, 2013, 06:25:24 PM
 #34

But if it became accepted by governments, would we need to find something else?
Governments don't have cooties, they have guns.

Bitcoins are impervious to guns. No reason to not want them to use bitcoin.
(They never, EVER, will do so, but I'm all for it if they change their mind.)

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April 24, 2013, 07:04:28 PM
Last edit: April 24, 2013, 07:22:33 PM by agentbluescreen
 #35

Everybody is speaking about how BTC is deflationary... Well, didn't you see how its value just got from $266 to $100 in hours? What was that, the USD deflating?

We mustn't fool ourselves. Bitcoin is not going to be truly deflationary nor a safe store of value if we don't break the loop. While the "value" of Bitcoin is established with its exchange rate for FIAT... We are just fucked, and it will just be a TOY for speculation, while being very vulnerable to attacks from its enemies.

Think about the most likely attack to BTC from its natural enemy, the FED: they own fiat money, and if they feel BTC is a danger for them, they can just pump it to the fucking sky to crash it to almost $0. Explain then about how it is a "store of value" to those who lose everything. How do we avoid that? Breaking the fucking loop FIAT->BTC->FIAT.

We need business that set their prices in BTC, and pay all their costs (including salaries) in BTC. We need to break the laces with fiat money. When we do that, then we will have a really deflationary currency that will truly serve as a store of value. Until BTC's value is related with the exchange rate with fiat... We are fucked, and it will be useless as soon as the FED decides it has to go.

Dude. Get Real. What you say is an Utopia. Like the Unicorns, Heaven and Communism.
The BTC fell from 266 to 55 for one reason - people made a lot of money from it, and decided to cash out. Of course they did not cash everything out at 266, as each sell order lowered the price. And it was natural and expected to see it fall.


Well were going to have to find some sort of a use for it, because thus far as a "money", it's little more than a glorified "virtual toilet" who's sole "value" depends entirely upon how the last guy might leave the toilet seat, an hour from now.

The simple fact is that as long as the "Exchanges" continue to foolishly operate as "Penny-stock Markets" treating Our Labour Exchange Currency" as if it were some other poor dupe's "penny stock" to be bid up and down like a toilet seat Bitcoin can never ever become a "money".

with a toilet-seat valued "bitcoin futures derivative token" it is impossible to:

- get paid in Bitcoin for either past or future services in stable terms relative to the value of any other "Medium of Labour Exchange Currency"

- pay anyone for any good or service in Bitcoin in stable terms relative to the value of any other "Medium of Labour Exchange Currency"

- know the futures value of Bitcoin in stable terms relative to the value of any other "Medium of Labour Exchange Currency" an hour from now

- lend nor borrow Bitcoin in terms of Bitcoin

- agree to or form any sane contract for anything valued in Bitcoins

- even trade Bitcoin in exchange for anything with any certainty it will be worth the cost of it an hour from now

the only thing it works as is a fiat futures derivative contract for the future fiat value of Bitcoins.

(and of course if you have a "donation" to sell that costs nothing.)

Depending what hour your Bitcoin transaction passed through a "Bitcoin toilet" today, the current "fiat" toilet lid's position returned to you either $190 or $145 (likely mostly counterfeited) Federal Reserve Corporation "They-Owe-Us Notes" for it.

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April 24, 2013, 07:15:13 PM
 #36

It would limit the entire Bitcoin economy to just those products which can be produced completely with a Bitcoin supply chain, all raw materials, production, labor, etc solely in Bitcoins.  


No, it would not. If a company can get some of supplies for fiat and some for bitcoins, then they need to sell part of their goods for fiat and part for bitcoins to cover supply costs.
 

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April 24, 2013, 07:44:44 PM
 #37

It would limit the entire Bitcoin economy to just those products which can be produced completely with a Bitcoin supply chain, all raw materials, production, labor, etc solely in Bitcoins.  


No, it would not. If a company can get some of supplies for fiat and some for bitcoins, then they need to sell part of their goods for fiat and part for bitcoins to cover supply costs.
 

You just don't get it do you? A "money" is a Medium of Labour exchange "*Currency*" (*meaning it can vary a tiny bit in value or quality from yester-day to current-day to tomorrow*) that is guaranteed to be of a reliable, more or less constantly repeatable value to everyone who uses it. Those needy for a constant, consistently valued utility of Labour-exchange include bushels-of-bonuses banksters, speculators, entrepreneurs, manufacturers, merchants, professionals, false-flag terrorists, street sweepers and even robbers. We all expect to be paid in something we can reliably use again to claim our rewards as we choose later.

Nobody can afford to get paid in something that they have no clue what it might only be worth an hour from now.

Even a slave has the freedom to decide to be fed, starve or just commit suicide, depending upon the certainty of what his reward for servitude will or will not be.

Without an assured value a "fiat bitcoin" can never ever become a "money".
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April 24, 2013, 08:16:20 PM
 #38

Breaking the loop is most directly tied to adoption of the bitcoin Economy.

Loop:  FIAT->BTC->FIAT->Consumption

Broken loop: FIAT->BTC->Consumption


Both of your loops are wrong. Correct loop would be

Production -> BTC -> Consumption


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April 25, 2013, 12:24:43 AM
 #39

Well there are no laws against this... we could set the price, and tell everyone selling at the exchanges that this is the defacto bottom price of Bitcoin for this amount of volume of customers: Customers being people who just want to exchange their money to transfer it to someone else.

I mean is Bitcoin going to be a Currency of exchange... or a Commodity? How much fluctuation is good fluctuation that indicates the health of all the transactions on the system?

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April 25, 2013, 01:03:28 AM
 #40


You just don't get it do you?

I am not sure you get it. Fiat and bitcoin transactions can run within same production cycle without converting BTC<->Fiat.    But, currently you can not completely avoid BTC<->Fiat exchange because miners need to pay their electric bills, and they can't pay those bills with bitcoins.

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