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Author Topic: SegWit (26.8%) vs Bitcoin Unlimited (32.2%)  (Read 8366 times)
lordoliver
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March 09, 2017, 04:33:25 PM
 #41

If segwit will be used the other blocks would be orphaned with the software, thats true. But I bet at that time there will already be a software out, that fixes that and makes another altcoin with them like ETC did.

No, because a segwit block is still a good normal block.   Because segwit is a soft fork.  Every segwit block is accepted by an old node.  Otherwise it is not a soft fork.  So as a non-segwit node, you cannot decide whether a given block is a non-segwit block.  Because segwit blocks are also OK.

You could, indeed, implement ANOTHER soft fork, a non-compatible with segwit, true.  Is that what you mean ?


Yes I ment that, but I actually think I misunderstood something. Thank you.
But still I guess we will not reach consensus as we stick to the 25% since months already. And with BU we will have the fork...
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There are several different types of Bitcoin clients. The most secure are full nodes like Bitcoin Core, which will follow the rules of the network no matter what miners do. Even if every miner decided to create 1000 bitcoins per block, full nodes would stick to the rules and reject those blocks.
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March 09, 2017, 04:37:15 PM
 #42

If Bitcoin forks into 2 chains.. it's over.. Sad

If CORE (95% of ALL the fixes/changes/updates) leaves Bitcoin development.. it's over.. All respect to BU, but they are simply not at the level required yet..

No idea how this will all turn out.. BUT Bitcoin is NOT un-destroyable. Nothing is. Dangerous times..

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March 09, 2017, 04:46:55 PM
 #43

I think any kind of change of the current protocol would mess up the payment systems. Doesn't matter what.
We all committed to 2 major bitcoin laws:
1. The protocol was said to be 1MB per block. Period!
2. There are only 21 Million Bitcoins. Period!

but the original bitcoin did have 32MB limit, by your logic we should be there now not a 1MB, satoshi was all for the right change, i said that 1MB was done momentally to avoid ddos attack, it was not a solution, and why we should now remain at 1MB?

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March 09, 2017, 05:02:49 PM
 #44

chinese miners are afraid of the UASF. If unlimited gets 51% they become another alt and finaly we get rid of Ver, Andressen, Hearn and other Judas.
When split happens it's important not to miss the moment and sell all BU, before it's price is dumped to the lever of the other alts

If unlimited gets 51%, then it's rather core being an altcoin with its 49% minority, isn't it?

Strictly speaking, no.  The original protocol is the original coin.

Sorry, but the original protocol had no blocksize limit at all, there was just 32 MB memory limit for message in the software, thus blocks. BU and Classic follows this logic, and thus argument for anything over 1 MB = altcoin is pretty weak.
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March 09, 2017, 07:35:12 PM
 #45

chinese miners are afraid of the UASF. If unlimited gets 51% they become another alt and finaly we get rid of Ver, Andressen, Hearn and other Judas.
When split happens it's important not to miss the moment and sell all BU, before it's price is dumped to the lever of the other alts

If unlimited gets 51%, then it's rather core being an altcoin with its 49% minority, isn't it?

Strictly speaking, no.  The original protocol is the original coin.

Sorry, but the original protocol had no blocksize limit at all, there was just 32 MB memory limit for message in the software, thus blocks. BU and Classic follows this logic, and thus argument for anything over 1 MB = altcoin is pretty weak.

You don't seem to understand that it is not a matter of choice, morality, principles, legality, legitimity or whatever.  We don't have any choice, because there is a DYNAMICAL SYSTEM that decides upon choice: the immutability mechanism.   And that system will decide to remain as it is.  So the only way to do something different, is to make an altcoin.  By forking or whatever.  Not because that would be "right" or "wrong", or "moral", or "just" or .... but because it is dynamically IMPOSSIBLE to do something else.  By the very mechanism that bitcoin was designed to develop: immutability.

The only way to break immutability is by centralisation.  

When I talk about the "original protocol", I don't talk about a historical protocol for which no block chain is actually running today. I'm talking about the "original one" as the CURRENT one.  Any "old" protocol is dead, because no live chain is running it.
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March 09, 2017, 07:38:04 PM
 #46

If Bitcoin forks into 2 chains.. it's over.. Sad

Why would that be the case ?  If it forks, we have two coins.  There are already more than 700 other coins out there.  What happens, of course, is that bitcoin then loses its "first mover advantage" and becomes "just another crypto currency".
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March 09, 2017, 07:42:03 PM
 #47

If Bitcoin forks into 2 chains.. it's over.. Sad

Why would that be the case ?  If it forks, we have two coins.  There are already more than 700 other coins out there.  What happens, of course, is that bitcoin then loses its "first mover advantage" and becomes "just another crypto currency".


QED..

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March 09, 2017, 07:42:58 PM
 #48

To be honest, I'm fairly convinced to just go with whatever the majority of miners are supporting at the time, because this block size debate has been going on for too long and either solution is going to result in Bitcoin being scalable whether we like the exact mechanics or not.
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March 09, 2017, 07:45:03 PM
 #49

whoever takes over that I think if it helps the problem and a better future for bitcoin is not a problem for me Smiley
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March 09, 2017, 08:08:43 PM
 #50

Bitcoin is about disruption and momentum and its free and censorship resistant.

Blockstream money is disrupted by BU, the free unlimited version of bitcoin.

The momentum is at BU side.

Miners might collude and switch with that momentum.

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March 09, 2017, 08:18:38 PM
 #51

Miners might collude and switch with that momentum.

It might also be that miners support BU to the height to make sure that segwit doesn't get activated, but don't want BU either.  Miners make most profits with small blocks and no segwit: they sell block chain room.  That may, in the long run, become the most valuable commodity, not bitcoin's coins.
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March 09, 2017, 08:28:56 PM
 #52

If Bitcoin forks into 2 chains.. it's over.. Sad

Why would that be the case ?  If it forks, we have two coins.  There are already more than 700 other coins out there.  What happens, of course, is that bitcoin then loses its "first mover advantage" and becomes "just another crypto currency".


If there is a hard fork the exchanges and online services have already spoken and said there will be both Bitcoin (BTC or XBT) and Bitcoin Unlimited (BTU or XBU) like they handled the Ethereum split.

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March 09, 2017, 08:30:01 PM
 #53

Miners might collude and switch with that momentum.

It might also be that miners support BU to the height to make sure that segwit doesn't get activated, but don't want BU either.  Miners make most profits with small blocks and no segwit: they sell block chain room.  That may, in the long run, become the most valuable commodity, not bitcoin's coins.


If BU gains control of Bitcoin, they could keep blocks small to reap more transaction fees. This may all be a ploy to take development away from Core and stop Segwit and slow down sidechain development. No one really knows the agendas behind Core or BU. One thing is for sure, it aint to benefit Bitcoin.

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March 09, 2017, 08:31:12 PM
 #54

If Bitcoin forks into 2 chains.. it's over.. Sad

Why would that be the case ?  If it forks, we have two coins.  There are already more than 700 other coins out there.  What happens, of course, is that bitcoin then loses its "first mover advantage" and becomes "just another crypto currency".


If there is a hard fork the exchanges and online services have already spoken and said there will be both Bitcoin (BTC or XBT) and Bitcoin Unlimited (BTU or XBU) like they handled the Ethereum split.

Of course, it is extremely lucrative for exchanges, as everybody has "free coins" on the chain he doesn't like, and will go and exchange them: a lot of volume (essentially the whole bitcoin stash, twice !), and a lot of exchange fees.
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March 09, 2017, 08:37:26 PM
Last edit: March 09, 2017, 08:50:41 PM by AgentofCoin
 #55

To answer the OP,
-snip-

I appreciate the answer, now what exactly BU is offering that SegWit is not? I also don't understand how Gavin & Roger ver mostly are supporting such a thing as they are early adopters and probably have a net worth of millions of dollars, It's impossible to predict what's gonna happen and seeing them taking such a risk is definitely something phishy.

(1) SegWit is basically a reconfiguration of the block structure so that a new transaction
type (SegWit TX) can be implemented that creates more space with the 1MB cap. It changes
the "blocksize" into a "blockweight" by allowing 1MB of transaction data in the block and 3MB
of witness data outside of the block. The original purpose was to fix the malleability flaw but
was then seen as also adding "more space to a block". So it is an optimization, a fix, and an
"tx increase". This is not a long term scaling solution but helps facilitate second layers in a
more efficient and safer manner as well as maintains current level of decentralization and
unregulatability by governments.

BU is basically a final scaling solution. This proposal creates a new paradigm that bitcoin has
not experienced ever. It essentially give the miners the power to create any size block, as long
as their BU node network approves of that size cap. In theory, BU is based upon pure economic
market principals that believe that the market is rational and will balance the Bitcoin system to
an appropriate equilibrium. It uses a new Consensus mechanism call "Emergent Consensus".
It is intended to solve scaling so that it follows along the same lines as difficultly adjustments
and halving, as that they are automatic parts of the Bitcoin system.

(2) Gavin and Roger Ver only support the BU version because they believe Satoshi intended
On-Chain scaling, even at the cost of centralization and regulation of the network. Some think
those possibilities were intended by Satoshi, others think they may not happen, and others have
no opinion either way since they are purely interested in mass adoption and low fees only. Gavin
and Roger (and others) truly believe that they are right because they are following the "original
Satoshi plan" of an online currency. They believe that the "original Satoshi plan" has been
sidetracked and/or delayed.

(3) I don't know if Gavin has a lot of coins now, since he doesn't talk about such and he did give
alot away with his old faucet. But Roger Ver claims to be bitcoin wealthy and has shown so by
creating infrastructures and support system that support his Bitcoin beliefs. It is likely that both
believe that their coins would in theory be more valuable in time, as more people get their hands
on and start using bitcoin as a mass payment platform.


(4) If the hardfork occurs, your coins will be safe as long as you do not transact until it has
been shown to be safe. ...

There is one area that makes me wonder though in a hard-fork scenario what happens to the unconfirmed transactions.
Unless you delete the unconfirmed transactions and put the balance back into the forked wallets balance they would be stuck but that pretty seems complex if your not running your own client and using a service instead unless they keep rebroadcasting it.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=35214.20

If your tx is in the mempool and unconfirmed at the time of a hardfork, my understanding is that
you will have "double coins". Whats important is whether your tx was including within a block, PRIOR
to the hardfork. That is all. So, if your tx gets 1 confirm, then the hardfork, the receiver now gets the
"double coins". You do not need to delete your pending tx unless you are worried about getting into a
block prior to the hardfork. Point is, if we have warning of the hardfork, you can wait till after the split,
but if it is unexpected, then what will be will be.


The above are my understandings.

I support a decentralized & unregulatable ledger first, with safe scaling over time.
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March 09, 2017, 08:38:50 PM
 #56

Miners might collude and switch with that momentum.

It might also be that miners support BU to the height to make sure that segwit doesn't get activated, but don't want BU either.  Miners make most profits with small blocks and no segwit: they sell block chain room.  That may, in the long run, become the most valuable commodity, not bitcoin's coins.


If BU gains control of Bitcoin, they could keep blocks small to reap more transaction fees.

No. The way mining works, they try to solve the hash puzzle and as soon as they solve the hash puzzle they publish the block and hope it isn't orphaned.

Every TX they include is additional money, it is not in their best interest to exclude transactions that pay a fee - that's money they are giving away to one of their competitors.

When blocks are not full it is because they solved the block before validating enough transactions to fill it.

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March 09, 2017, 08:51:47 PM
 #57

Miners might collude and switch with that momentum.

It might also be that miners support BU to the height to make sure that segwit doesn't get activated, but don't want BU either.  Miners make most profits with small blocks and no segwit: they sell block chain room.  That may, in the long run, become the most valuable commodity, not bitcoin's coins.


If BU gains control of Bitcoin, they could keep blocks small to reap more transaction fees.

No. The way mining works, they try to solve the hash puzzle and as soon as they solve the hash puzzle they publish the block and hope it isn't orphaned.

Every TX they include is additional money, it is not in their best interest to exclude transactions that pay a fee - that's money they are giving away to one of their competitors.

When blocks are not full it is because they solved the block before validating enough transactions to fill it.

There is a bounty in the mempool already thats worth to mine. The block size is a non linear optimization problem but there will be a finit optimal block size for every adoption rate.

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March 10, 2017, 01:06:19 AM
 #58

Unlimited somehow caught up in pool support, but blocks mined with it are still way lower than SegWit. %'s seem to be really close, sometimes SegWit on top, sometimes Unlimited. This data mostly means nothing, at least up until now, but it's still interesting to follow...
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March 10, 2017, 01:12:12 AM
 #59

Unlimited somehow caught up in pool support, but blocks mined with it are still way lower than SegWit. %'s seem to be really close, sometimes SegWit on top, sometimes Unlimited. This data mostly means nothing, at least up until now, but it's still interesting to follow...

It caught up because Ant Pool one of the largest mining pools, has begun transitioning to Bitcoin Unlimited.

In fact, there is a trend developing:

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March 10, 2017, 01:27:11 AM
 #60

It seems to me that BU will take over Segwit. I dont know if it's good or bad.

But the inability of the devs to figure out a solution faster is leading to this. Plus, we are tired of huge fees.

So whatever can fix the fee problem, I will stand besides it.

If we dont fix the fee problem, we wont have any bitcoin to debate about, so better choose now, and risk bitcoin, than to lose bitcoin altogether over some other coin.

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