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Author Topic: Best pool rules  (Read 232 times)
ccgllc
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March 18, 2018, 08:17:15 PM
Merited by QuestionAuthority (5)
 #1

In my opinion, more or less in order:

1)  Lowest fees - currently believe that is Kano.is at 0.9% with transaction sharing
1a)  Shares transaction fees - back in December, fees represented close to 40% of the per-block earnings at one point
1b)  Any pool that does NOT share transaction fees should be rejected from consideration (which, unfortunately, is most, if not all, Chinese based pools)

2)  Reasonable variance - you need to get paid often enough to be happy.  This is a tough one.  Comparing two pools that pass rule #1:

Slushpool - finds a dozen or so coins a day
Kano - finds a coin every few days
.
.
.
solo - only an option if you have several thousand miners or are good with getting a paycheck once a year or so or maybe never.

Variance is the close cousin to "luck".  The luckier a pool is, the more blocks it finds relative to its hashing speed, and the less variance it will have.  But its not a real thing!  "luck" could change any microsecond.
 "luck" is just mathematical statistics - over a long enough time period, all pools will average out to 100% luck.

You need to understand variance:  A big pool finds more blocks, but distributes the earnings out to more miners.  A small pool is just the reverse:  it finds fewer blocks, but pays those earnings to fewer people.  Over the long run, rule #1, well, rules.

3)  Wind-up/Wind-down time - most pools use some leveling algorithm.  Using the two above examples:

Slushpool - about 4 hours
Kano - about 12 days

4)  User Interface.  Slushpool wins hands down over Kano - but you pay over 2X in fees to have that privilege.  That doesn't matter much if you have a few miners.  If you have hundreds, the difference can be thousands of dollars a year.

Notes:

A) In the long run #2 & #3 really don't matter much.  Both pools show your hashing rate in minutes, payouts just lag on Kano compared to Slushpool, but would continue longer if you changed in the future
B) Bigger is not better.  Sure Antpool is #1 in size, in no small part to Bitmain using their own pool (no fees for them!).   Your profit will be determined mostly by rule #1 - lower fees mean more profit.
C) More, smaller, pools is healthier for the blockchain.  If you can live with the variance, support the pool with the longest average payout you are happy with.
D) For pools with long ramp up times that are relatively small, like Kano, you MIGHT suffer due to difficulty changes while you ramp up.  For smaller pools, make sure you understand what happens to your efforts (based on their scoring system) when a difficulty change occurs.

Personally, as I thought this over, I decided to switch my 1.3PH from Slushpool to Kano.

I mine bitcoin for a living, and I mine at Kano.is!
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March 19, 2018, 02:13:53 AM
 #2

I agree... it is better for me.... if YOU mine at Kano's
But FYI
Bitcoin.com pool has ZERO fees and pays highest PPS..(NO VARIANCE means NOT getting fornicated by 6 & 900% blocks and PPLNS EXTORTION ramp up/down bullshit)
They also have "3N" PPLNS for both BTC & BCH with Auto profit or dedicated pool and average over 500Ph.. so variance will be far less painful than Kano's.
It also has  great site stats and easy friendly interface and data and better payout options than Slush, Auto profit switching. Monthly activity (CSV) report. Good support. stable reliable connectivity.


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March 19, 2018, 02:17:47 AM
 #3

Yes, Welcome aboard!

Few things to add.

Slushpool ramp up/down are not equal. You lose your hash much more quickly when you leave than when you start mining. I had been screwed by this multiple times before putting my miners into hosting due to power/internet outages.

Kano's pool is equal 5nd in = 5nd out. Losing power/internet for a short period won't cost you much on a block reward.

Slush pool is not responsive to it's miners, Kano is. Slush posted long ago that he will no longer participate in the forum. Kano on the other hand is very active in the forum. People may not always like what he says, but he is always there.

Slushpool let Omega mining run equipment not capable of solving a block for months (Yes, really!). After we all complained about the terrible luck from Decemeber 2015 up until Feb of 2016. Slushpool then finally posted something about it on there FB page. How it was all a mistake and unintentional and that he was letting them keep the BTC from their mining (Yes, really!). They were running a few PH in gear when the pool was only 30-40 PH in size It was before the halving so the block reward was 25 btc + fees. So it was a large amount of coin. Kano put a stop to them mining at his pool and let other pool operators know about them.

Add all those and I think Kano's pool is by far and away the clear choice.
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March 19, 2018, 03:05:09 AM
 #4

I agree... it is better for me.... if YOU mine at Kano's
But FYI
Bitcoin.com pool has ZERO fees and pays highest PPS..(NO VARIANCE means NOT getting fornicated by 6 & 900% blocks and PPLNS EXTORTION ramp up/down bullshit)
They also have "3N" PPLNS for both BTC & BCH with Auto profit or dedicated pool and average over 500Ph.. so variance will be far less painful than Kano's.
It also has  great site stats and easy friendly interface and data and better payout options than Slush, Auto profit switching. Monthly activity (CSV) report. Good support. stable reliable connectivity.



100% PPS is not ZERO fees. The majority of the last 10 blocks had over 0.125BTC in fees, so mining somewhere like Kano which only has 0.9% fees but adds transaction fees into the reward gives more BTC. The block with 0.49320091BTC fees would have been a 3.9% fee - way higher than 0%.

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March 19, 2018, 03:41:10 AM
 #5

I agree... it is better for me.... if YOU mine at Kano's
But FYI
Bitcoin.com pool has ZERO fees and pays highest PPS..(NO VARIANCE means NOT getting fornicated by 6 & 900% blocks and PPLNS EXTORTION ramp up/down bullshit)
They also have "3N" PPLNS for both BTC & BCH with Auto profit or dedicated pool and average over 500Ph.. so variance will be far less painful than Kano's.
It also has  great site stats and easy friendly interface and data and better payout options than Slush, Auto profit switching. Monthly activity (CSV) report. Good support. stable reliable connectivity.



100% PPS is not ZERO fees. The majority of the last 10 blocks had over 0.125BTC in fees, so mining somewhere like Kano which only has 0.9% fees but adds transaction fees into the reward gives more BTC. The block with 0.49320091BTC fees would have been a 3.9% fee - way higher than 0%.
Ignore Philopolymath.
He mined on the pool during a run of bad luck then left.
He doesn't understand how payout systems work, so makes posts like that pointing out his ignorance Smiley

Yep there have been 2 runs of pretty bad luck in the past 6 months ... however, overall luck for the last 500 blocks, that includes those two runs of bad luck, is currently 100.09% Smiley
... and since the pool started, above 100% also.

Yep luck goes up and down, but that happens on all PPLNS pools.
But they won't go broke, you can pretty much count on a PPLNS pool to be able to pay it's miners, as long as you trust the pool operator ...

PPS pools, on the other hand, require a high fee to avoid them going broke.
For the sceptics ... have a read: https://bitcoil.co.il/pool_analysis.pdf

To put it in a simple example - for PPS pools:
When the pool finds a 600% block, it will be around 60 BTC behind on what it's paying it's miners vs what the pool gets in it's blocks.
So where does this 60 BTC come from? The pocket of the person responsible for the pool.

How often is any pool expected to find a 600% block?
On average, one in 403.4 blocks.
Will it be exactly every 400 or so blocks?
No of course not, it's random, sometimes it will be longer and sometimes slower.
There could be 2 or even 3 600% blocks in the next 400 blocks on any pool.

So to overcome this problem with PPS, the pool must have a balance, to support this possibility happening at any time, or it will go broke if it happens.
They get this balance by charging a much higher fee.

In the long run a 0% PPS pool, with expected 100% luck, makes way more for the pool owner, i.e gets way more fees from the miners, than a low fee PPLNS pool of the same size.
But over any term, they must take high fees or have a risk of going broke.
They must put back into the pool, whenever there is bad luck, to keep a high balance to ensure it's unlikely to go broke.

There are a number of PPS pools that have not charged a high enough fee in the past ... and have indeed gone broke.

Now that's with 600% blocks Smiley
Of course each and every PPS pool will get many blocks over 100%, that require them to put back into the pool to pay the miners.
Of course they will also take out of the pool when luck is good ... you just gotta hope they put it back when needed ... and that means keeping that balance high enough at all times, adding to it every time bad luck takes away from it.

Here's a CDF table to see that info, stating how often, on average, every pool is expected to get blocks over the given %
Code:
0.39346934028737   50.000%  1 in 1.6
 0.63212055882856  100.000%  1 in 2.7
 0.77686983985157  150.000%  1 in 4.5
 0.86466471676339  200.000%  1 in 7.4
 0.95021293163214  300.000%  1 in 20.1
 0.98168436111127  400.000%  1 in 54.6
 0.99326205300091  500.000%  1 in 148.4
 0.99752124782333  600.000%  1 in 403.4
 0.99908811803445  700.000%  1 in 1096.6
 0.99966453737210  800.000%  1 in 2981.0
 0.99987659019591  900.000%  1 in 8103.1
It's interesting to see how quickly the numbers drop.
300% or more are expected, on average, one in 20.1 blocks!

Pool: https://kano.is Here on Bitcointalk: Forum BTC: 1KanoPb8cKYqNrswjaA8cRDk4FAS9eDMLU
FreeNode IRC: irc.freenode.net channel #kano.is Majority developer of the ckpool code
Help keep Bitcoin secure by mining on pools with full block verification on all blocks - and NO empty blocks!
ccgllc
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March 19, 2018, 04:34:31 AM
 #6

Bitcoin.com pool has ZERO fees and pays highest PPS..(NO VARIANCE means NOT getting fornicated by 6 & 900% blocks and PPLNS EXTORTION ramp up/down bullshit)

Poppycock.  Bitcoin.com charges 0% against the reward but keeps most of the fees for themselves.  Back when fees were 10% of the block, he was advertising 105% payout - the 100% base plus half the transaction fees.  If you look in his terms and conditions, he even calls that out.  Last time I read it, it had a clause along the lines of "105% payout so long as transactions fee represent at least 12.5% of the block reward".

From their FAQ:

Code:
BTC: 100%
BCH: 98%

The extra block rewards come from transaction fees. For example, if the block reward bonus is 105%, the 5% comes from transaction fees.

We do change the block reward from time to time based on how much the pool is making in transaction fees. When the pool starts to see more TX fees coming in then we will raise the block reward again. The change is for all miners on the pool. In the past the block reward we give has been as high as 120%

So he paid as "high" as 120% of the block reward, presumably back in December when transactions fees were in the high 30% and mid 40% range.  e.g.  He was making 10-20% on every block found back then.  Not zero.

I mine bitcoin for a living, and I mine at Kano.is!
Blokforge Affiliate:  https://blokforge.com/?ref=21
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ccgllc
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September 12, 2018, 03:39:22 AM
 #7

Frequency of payment to miners is also a consideration, while selecting a pool

Not really, since it all works out the same over time.  However you want a pool big enough that you at least get paid weekly.

I mine bitcoin for a living, and I mine at Kano.is!
Blokforge Affiliate:  https://blokforge.com/?ref=21
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