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Author Topic: [1500 TH] p2pool: Decentralized, DoS-resistant, Hop-Proof pool  (Read 2034040 times)
PatMan
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August 21, 2014, 07:54:17 PM
 #10281

So the technology is there to do something like that. But trouble is perhaps it's not really p2p anymore. You've just invented a semi-centralised pool that enforces a payment to the boss - even a benevolent one. So politically this could be hard to achieve in practice.

Exactly. So nobody will use it.....

"When one person is deluded it is called insanity - when many people are deluded it is called religion" - Robert M. Pirsig.  I don't want your coins, I want change.
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pmorris
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August 21, 2014, 07:54:31 PM
 #10282

To offset the costs of the API I was considering offering 2 options (miners choice):

Some great thoughts windpath.

What stops someone taking your code, running the complex node and replacing your advertisements with their own? Does this just create a way for others to monetise your work?

Or would the complex node stuff serving the API stay closed source?
kgb2mining
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August 21, 2014, 08:02:01 PM
 #10283

That is creating a potential point of failure, the whole idea of a peer to peer network is to avoid that.
Please explain your conclusion, I don't see this creating a single point of failure, and it's quite the opposite.

A peering node would simply be another full instance of bitcoind running on a server that's well connected and very well resourced.  It would be able to service hundreds of connections from other, smaller, local nodes.  It's only purpose would be to ensure a well connected host closer to the smaller or home miners to hopefully increase their chances of getting their shares into the network faster.

In addition if it served the data that windpath is alluding to, and serve as a closer location to make the API calls to, it decentralizes the network further, and moves the processing of this data out closer to the individual miners.
PatMan
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August 21, 2014, 08:07:18 PM
 #10284

Not a single point of failure, a potential point of failure.....

"When one person is deluded it is called insanity - when many people are deluded it is called religion" - Robert M. Pirsig.  I don't want your coins, I want change.
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kgb2mining
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August 21, 2014, 08:16:09 PM
 #10285

So the technology is there to do something like that. But trouble is perhaps it's not really p2p anymore. You've just invented a semi-centralised pool that enforces a payment to the boss - even a benevolent one. So politically this could be hard to achieve in practice.

Exactly. So nobody will use it.....
And, currently there's nothing stopping anyone running a public node from charging a fee for miners to use it, and there's nothing stopping anyone from avoiding using that node (not intended to be snarky, just making the point since it's directly relevant).

And currently there are enough issues with p2pool where people are avoiding it and going with higher priced proprietary pools.  Arguably those issues could be fixed, but if only there was a way to get them fixed...........

We are at the point where you have to pool mine in order to make anything, are we all agreed on that?

That being the case, I would rather mine at a pool where I know any fee I pay is going to the betterment of the whole pool and all who mine on it, including myself (third point in my statement - distribute the rest back to all the miners), rather than to make someone or some company rich off my labor.  1% of a BTC is what, $5?  did anyone get a coffee on the way to work this morning?  How much did that cost you?  If forgoing a cup of joe for a couple days meant my Terraminers regained 20% of their hashrate (a piddly little 600GH/s, nothing big  Roll Eyes ), sign me up twice.
kgb2mining
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August 21, 2014, 08:18:59 PM
 #10286

Not a single point of failure, a potential point of failure.....
Ok, I'll give you that, if a peer node went down it could cause a "burp" for some folks, but I would still contend not a big one.  What happens if a peer you're connected to now goes down?  bitcoind blacklists it and uses the others in its list.  It's like a root nameserver going down... might cause an extra few hundred milliseconds to get a response on a domain query from a different one, but unless they all went down at the same time, you'd really not notice much of a difference.
windpath
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August 21, 2014, 08:23:12 PM
 #10287

Not a single point of failure, a potential point of failure.....

The failure of the API (which is inevitable, eventually it will have some down time) will have 0 impact on mining.

The API will only provide data for the front-end, it will have no hooks into the node at all.

To be clear the stuff I'm talking about is basically the entire p2pool Global Dashboard here: http://minefast.coincadence.com/p2pool-stats.php

The platform data that is not available from p2pool and the block history on the Node Dashboard page here: http://minefast.coincadence.com/index.php

And the miner BTC reward and block luck here: http://minefast.coincadence.com/miner.php?id=19vXrwKGUhK4cCU8tA4kWZgbChcmh9a6qj

I'm not concerned with someone trying to hijack any ad space, the API will serve raw HTML that is embedded in the pages with Javascript and the ads will simply be there amongst the other data. Yes, someone could write some code to strip the ads and replace them with their own, but I don't see it as being a huge problem. If it became one it would be trivial to dynamically change the ad placement and code so its hard to strip...

PatMan
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August 21, 2014, 08:35:29 PM
 #10288

It's funny, this debate comes round every few months when new arrivals realize the wasted potential p2pool has, but the conclusion is always undecided.....

Personally (again), there isn't really a lot wrong with how p2pool works, just what it (doesn't) works with due to no development - this is the problem. If there is to be any kind of hard coded donation feature, it should go to everyone depending on their hash rate, and the option to donate to the dev should remain as it is. It should be possible for the p2pool program to detect if the donation option is enabled or not on a particular node, then adjust the donation amount to that node accordingly. I still believe that if users are able to see that there is ongoing development on p2pool (which there must be in order for p2pool to be compatible with the ever increasing different hardware being released) - they will donate. This should also be displayed on their node for everyone to see - kind of name & shame so to speak.....

Just a rough suggestion...... Wink

I must admit it's a refreshing change to have a semi-intelligent debate about this, when I first suggested there was plenty of room for improvement with p2pool over a year ago - I was branded a blasphemous upstart witch!  How dare I question p2pool......Cheesy Cheesy

"When one person is deluded it is called insanity - when many people are deluded it is called religion" - Robert M. Pirsig.  I don't want your coins, I want change.
Amazon UK BTC payment service - https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=301229.0 - with FREE delivery!
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windpath
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August 21, 2014, 09:44:46 PM
 #10289

Fees are easy to see on any public node:

Node Fee: http://minefast.coincadence.com:9332/fee

Donation and Node Fee: http://minefast.coincadence.com:9332/local_stats

The API is built into every node. It would not be hard for a greedy node operator to spoof this though...

Edit: There is also the /patron_sendmany API, you give it an amount (100BTC in the example below), and it will give you a list of miners with active shares, dividing up the donation fairly by number of shares per miner:

http://minefast.coincadence.com:9332/patron_sendmany/100

PatMan
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August 21, 2014, 09:47:12 PM
 #10290

Just a heads up to those of us merge mining - the NMC problem has a temporary fix in place in git:

https://github.com/namecoin/namecoin/tree/relay_tmp_fix

Trying it now......

"When one person is deluded it is called insanity - when many people are deluded it is called religion" - Robert M. Pirsig.  I don't want your coins, I want change.
Amazon UK BTC payment service - https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=301229.0 - with FREE delivery!
http://www.ae911truth.org/ - http://rethink911.org/ - http://rememberbuilding7.org/
PatMan
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August 21, 2014, 09:52:32 PM
 #10291

Fees are easy to see on any public node:

Node Fee: http://minefast.coincadence.com:9332/fee

Donation and Node Fee: http://minefast.coincadence.com:9332/local_stats

The API is built into every node. It would not be hard for a greedy node operator to spoof this though...

Edit: There is also the /patron_sendmany API, you give it an amount (100BTC in the example below), and it will give you a list of miners with active shares, dividing up the donation fairly by number of shares per miner:

http://minefast.coincadence.com:9332/patron_sendmany/100

Like I said, not much wrong with it... Wink

But it needs to be seen instead of looking for it - noob friendly style., both that & the dev donation......

"When one person is deluded it is called insanity - when many people are deluded it is called religion" - Robert M. Pirsig.  I don't want your coins, I want change.
Amazon UK BTC payment service - https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=301229.0 - with FREE delivery!
http://www.ae911truth.org/ - http://rethink911.org/ - http://rememberbuilding7.org/
PatMan
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August 21, 2014, 10:23:08 PM
 #10292

Just a heads up to those of us merge mining - the NMC problem has a temporary fix in place in git:

https://github.com/namecoin/namecoin/tree/relay_tmp_fix

Trying it now......

EDIT: Not working for me, locked up & gave me this error when I tried to stop it:

" namecoind: /usr/include/boost/interprocess/sync/posix/recursive_mutex.hpp:77: boost::interprocess::ipcdetail::posix_recursive_mutex::~posix_recursive_mutex(): Assertion `res == 0' failed."

"When one person is deluded it is called insanity - when many people are deluded it is called religion" - Robert M. Pirsig.  I don't want your coins, I want change.
Amazon UK BTC payment service - https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=301229.0 - with FREE delivery!
http://www.ae911truth.org/ - http://rethink911.org/ - http://rememberbuilding7.org/
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August 22, 2014, 12:22:10 AM
 #10293

More blocks..
0.06507941 on 1TH/s today so far. Not bad.
One more today  Tongue

You guys running nodes please advise. What is your average bitcoind RAM usage after a few days? I had been having some bitcoind crashing issues and recreated swap @ 2GB and changed swapiness and cache pressure. So far so good, but I'm curious on usage on other nodes. I have limited connections in Bitcoind to 40 too. I didn't mess with P2Pool connection limits (32/6 currently). I'm thinking I need to up the memory allocation if the swap changes don't work out.
May be off-topic and need to post on support thread but the gurus are here.

SquashPool - 0% Fee - Dedicated P2Pool VPS - Atlanta, GA - SSD - Gig uplink
kgb2mining
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August 22, 2014, 01:57:34 AM
 #10294

More blocks..
0.06507941 on 1TH/s today so far. Not bad.
One more today  Tongue

You guys running nodes please advise. What is your average bitcoind RAM usage after a few days? I had been having some bitcoind crashing issues and recreated swap @ 2GB and changed swapiness and cache pressure. So far so good, but I'm curious on usage on other nodes. I have limited connections in Bitcoind to 40 too. I didn't mess with P2Pool connection limits (32/6 currently). I'm thinking I need to up the memory allocation if the swap changes don't work out.
May be off-topic and need to post on support thread but the gurus are here.
Sweet, 3 blocks today... been a nice run since over the weekend for sure.

To answer the question tho, our node is currently at 589MB for bitcoind on uptime of just under 15 days, at least according to the p2pool graphs.  To be fair tho, we're not allowing connections inbound, and only have 7 outbound peers.  GBT latency is .223s average.  How much RAM do you have on your node total?
kgb2mining
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August 22, 2014, 02:01:46 AM
 #10295

It's funny, this debate comes round every few months when new arrivals realize the wasted potential p2pool has, but the conclusion is always undecided.....

Personally (again), there isn't really a lot wrong with how p2pool works, just what it (doesn't) works with due to no development - this is the problem. If there is to be any kind of hard coded donation feature, it should go to everyone depending on their hash rate, and the option to donate to the dev should remain as it is. It should be possible for the p2pool program to detect if the donation option is enabled or not on a particular node, then adjust the donation amount to that node accordingly. I still believe that if users are able to see that there is ongoing development on p2pool (which there must be in order for p2pool to be compatible with the ever increasing different hardware being released) - they will donate. This should also be displayed on their node for everyone to see - kind of name & shame so to speak.....

Just a rough suggestion...... Wink

I must admit it's a refreshing change to have a semi-intelligent debate about this, when I first suggested there was plenty of room for improvement with p2pool over a year ago - I was branded a blasphemous upstart witch!  How dare I question p2pool......Cheesy Cheesy
You know, this isn't too far from what I suggested in my post Wink

I also agree, if there was active development, and active results, more would be inclined to contribute.  Seems like we have a typical High Noon situation between the users and the devs, with both sides saying "your move tex" but no one giving in first.
bitcoinbearhk
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August 22, 2014, 12:59:44 PM
 #10296

I received some 0.00028 BTC this morning in my P2Pool wallet ... not newly generated coins ... wondering did any one else on p2pool also receive that and what for?
bitcoinbearhk
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August 22, 2014, 01:02:50 PM
 #10297

Unfortunately I am a civil engineer , but not computer engineer ... I am very limited in regard to computing and coding ... I would say, at the "common user" level.


I am a fast learner though.  Can someone point me to the right direction or provide me a list of stuffs starting from scratch that I need to learn if I would wish to contribute to re-coding the p2pool software?


How do coders come to be? 
windpath
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August 22, 2014, 01:13:33 PM
 #10298

I received some 0.00028 BTC this morning in my P2Pool wallet ... not newly generated coins ... wondering did any one else on p2pool also receive that and what for?

Its a donation from someone contributing to p2pool miners.

Lucky Cris
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August 22, 2014, 01:47:21 PM
 #10299

Unfortunately I am a civil engineer , but not computer engineer ... I am very limited in regard to computing and coding ... I would say, at the "common user" level.


I am a fast learner though.  Can someone point me to the right direction or provide me a list of stuffs starting from scratch that I need to learn if I would wish to contribute to re-coding the p2pool software?


How do coders come to be? 

The source code is in a github repository.

contactlight
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August 22, 2014, 02:56:48 PM
 #10300

Unfortunately I am a civil engineer , but not computer engineer ... I am very limited in regard to computing and coding ... I would say, at the "common user" level.


I am a fast learner though.  Can someone point me to the right direction or provide me a list of stuffs starting from scratch that I need to learn if I would wish to contribute to re-coding the p2pool software?


How do coders come to be? 

As mean as it sounds, there is no "I've no experience in coding but I'm a fast learner, I'll help you recode this complicated software" in Computer Science.

That's like saying "I love what this composer did, I would like to compose a reinterpretation of his work. I have never composed music but I'm a fast learner".

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying you can't teach yourself programming. I am just saying you will very likely not get far enough without formal education, or starting at a very early age.
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