[1500 TH] p2pool: Decentralized, DoS-resistant, Hop-Proof pool

[xyzzy099]

I mine on p2pool, and I wish everyone did, just so over-centralization of mining would no longer be a threat.

If over-centralization of mining would no longer be a threat if everyone mined on p2pool, why don't we just force everyone to mine on p2pool? Why don't we just change the protocol to the p2pool protocol?

(Hint: I'm not actually suggesting we do this.)

Then why bother asking the question?

Because apparently you're more fond of p2pool than I am, so I thought maybe you'd have an answer.

Maybe I need a bigger hint to see what your point is.

My point is that p2pool is less secure than solo mining, and that solo mining on average pays slightly more in the long run. But I think you'd be better able to see that by working through the question without worrying about the point that's going to be made.

And who is this 'we' you speak of?

Probably related to the "everyone" you speak of.

Is the point you are trying to make that everyone should solo mine?  Nothing in you original post suggested that, or even hinted at it.

To be clear, I have no emotional relationship with p2pool at all.  It is a tool I use for mining, no more, no less.  Of the numerous such tools (mining pools), I think p2pool serves my needs the best.

You need to expand on your security concerns about p2pool, as I (and probably other readers) don't know what you are talking about.

My question about your use of 'we' is because your statement suggested that you were part of some 'we' that has the power to force people to mine on p2pool, and I was curious to know what 'we' had such power.

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[xyzzy099]

Is the point you are trying to make that everyone should solo mine?

No.

I was just asking a question. I guess you don't care to answer it.

I'm not smart enough to figure out your question apparently.  Why don't you ask it like you were asking a 2-year old so I might have a chance of understanding?

If your question is the literal question you originally asked, then, clearly, I answered that above when I pointed out that there is, to my knowledge, no 'we' that has the power to force anyone to use p2pool - nor should there be.

[xyzzy099]

Is the point you are trying to make that everyone should solo mine?

No.

I was just asking a question. I guess you don't care to answer it.

I'm not smart enough to figure out your question apparently.  Why don't you ask it like you were asking a 2-year old so I might have a chance of understanding?

If your question is the literal question you originally asked, then, clearly, I answered that above when I pointed out that there is, to my knowledge, no 'we' that has the power to force anyone to use p2pool - nor should there be.

The miners would be one such "we". If 51% of miners only accepted blocks which met the criteria for being valid in p2pool, we'd effectively force everyone to use p2pool.

I'm really confused now.  First you said I clearly liked p2pool more than you, and now you want to organize miners to force people to use p2pool?

If 51% of miners agreed that p2pool was the way to go, there would be no force necessary, as the majority of miners would already be using p2pool and there would be no centralization problem to start with.

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EDIT:  You added some more to your reply while I was typing, so I should reply to that part too.
More miners would equal smaller per-block payouts, but more blocks - so it evens out.  It would help the problem of centralization because, as you must know, p2pool is not centralized.

[xyzzy099]

I don't want to organize miners to force people to use p2pool.

More miners would equal smaller per-block payouts, but more blocks - so it evens out.

Huh?

It would help the problem of centralization because, as you must know, p2pool is not centralized.

Bitcoin isn't centralized either, but that doesn't mean there's no centralization problem in Bitcoin.

1) I'm glad you don't want to force people to use p2pool.

2) You said "Among other things, block rewards would only be a bit over 5% of what they would be otherwise."  I can only interpret that to mean that because there are more miners the reward per-block would be smaller, which is true - but if there is more hashpower on the pool, the pool will also mine more blocks.  These two changes are inversely proportional, so they offset.  (i.e. 0.1 btc per block * 5 blocks per day = 0.5 btc per day.  10 times as many miners means 0.01 btc per block payout, but 10 times as many blocks - which is 0.5 btc per day - the same as before.)  If this is not what you meant, then I have no idea what you mean.

3) Again, I have no idea what the point is that you're trying to make with this statement about bitcoin centralization - whatever it is, it has nothing to do with pools in general, or p2pool in particular.  You seem to have strayed a long way from your initial question, and from the topic of this thread.

[xyzzy099]

I'm glad you don't want to force people to use p2pool.

Why?

Ok, that's it.  If you had a point to make, you have wasted too many chances to make it, and I am bowing out of this inane exchange.

Hopefully the mods will have mercy on the other readers and delete all of these posts.

[IYFTech]

I'm not sure what your issue is there. Low hash-rate miners won't be paid in every single block— once their rate is low enough that they don't constantly have a share in the window, but when they do get paid you'll be "overpaid" and as a result there returns will be as expected on average.

I wouldn't call 70+gig a low rate miner - not yet anyway. I just got tired of watching blocks fly by without finding shares, therefore no payments. It's false economy.

But I don't have an issue with it, I'll use my hash rate on another pool, one that pays for the work 

I think what you mean is: "I'll use my hash rate on another pool, one that pays less for the work at a commensurately lower share threshold, and I'll end up with the same amount of reward long term  "

 

You forgot to end your claim with: "if you have 300+gig of hash power." 

[Xian01]

My expected time to share is 15.4 hours but it's been days since I got one. 

 Good Lord Man ! Are you manually mining with an abacus ?!

[ksenter]

My expected time to share is 15.4 hours but it's been days since I got one. 

 Good Lord Man ! Are you manually mining with an abacus ?!

No, just a little single.  30GHs...   I was getting 3 shares on p2pool a day for a couple of days around a week or so ago.  But I haven't had a single accepted share in 3 days, despite the fact that I'm estimated to get one every 15 hours.  So I was just agreeing with some of the others that variance is a bitch on p2pool, however I'm not currently planning to abandon it.

[BBlitz]

Hey all,

Newbie here - been digging doges at pool.hostv.pl:9355 for almost 7 hours now, with almost 370 Accepted shares but no payout yet - is there something that's gone wrong?  Who should I contact?

http://imgur.com/vO58jl8

Any help would be much appreciated!

Thanks

[Raulnsh]

Hi,

I've just upgrared from version 13.3 to version 13.4 by replacing files in the program folder.

Immedaitely after upgrading current payout was reduced from ~1.2 to ~0.7LTC

http://i01.overclockers.ru/c3a4e04ba7baeac93b85adeaff0be886/mertamqqvnojf5bg.gif
2.7 MH/s, GMT+06

Why this happen? It must not reduce payout immediately, because payout is determined by previsously mined shares...

Thank you!

-----------------------------------------------

After 5 hours of mining:

http://i01.overclockers.ru/c3a4e04ba7baeac93b85adeaff0be886/hwrnrp1c4lnymb4g.gif

No shares found:

Code:

2013-12-16 13:28:02.682000 P2Pool: 17335 shares in chain (17339 verified/17339 total) Peers: 8 (1 incoming)
2013-12-16 13:28:02.682000  Local: 2830kH/s in last 10.0 minutes Local dead on arrival: ~4.1% (2-7%) Expected time to share: 1.4 hours
2013-12-16 13:28:02.682000  Shares: 0 (0 orphan, 0 dead) Stale rate: ??? Efficiency: ??? Current payout: 0.0511 LTC
2013-12-16 13:28:02.682000  Pool: 1357MH/s Stale rate: 16.1% Expected time to block: 2.7 hours
2013-12-16 13:28:03.322000 Punishing share for 'Block-stale detected! height(c44ec31007ae222244e8e9b9d89a4625e49c635ea83d302437656d33197ad4da) < height(5084f0f73a84662a3fc8e56e804513adf0e376e6470499dfb169301c95f49591) or 1b152d9a != 1b152d9a'! Jumping from 12451e3b to c3be3583!
2013-12-16 13:28:03.354000 New work for worker! Difficulty: 0.000808 Share difficulty: 3.350757 Total block value: 50.000000 LTC including 0 transactions
2013-12-16 13:28:03.385000 New work for worker! Difficulty: 0.000808 Share difficulty: 3.350757 Total block value: 50.000000 LTC including 2 transactions

Version 13.4 does not work for me; I'm rolling back to version 13.3 and litecoin 0.8.5.1

[phillipsjk]

Just curious how many are willing to return nearly half of a recent pay-out:

Oops - 20BTC fee paid on .05 transaction?

I am not actually  mining in the pool yet, so don't have to make such a decision myself

I would be tempted to demand he set up a proper wallet: I would be PO'd if I returned the funds, only to have them sent as fees to another pool

[lenny_]

Hey all,

Newbie here - been digging doges at pool.hostv.pl:9355 for almost 7 hours now, with almost 370 Accepted shares but no payout yet - is there something that's gone wrong?  Who should I contact?

http://imgur.com/vO58jl8

Any help would be much appreciated!

Thanks

I know admin of that node, I just told him that you asking.

[svirus]

Hey all,

Newbie here - been digging doges at pool.hostv.pl:9355 for almost 7 hours now, with almost 370 Accepted shares but no payout yet - is there something that's gone wrong?  Who should I contact?

http://imgur.com/vO58jl8

Any help would be much appreciated!

Thanks

370 accept but I don't see what diff have this accepts
for p2pool you must have share witch bigger this than p2pool "share diff" to have any payout

[Rassah]

I think what you mean is: "I'll use my hash rate on another pool, one that pays less for the work at a commensurately lower share threshold, and I'll end up with the same amount of reward long term  "

I think what he is really saying is "I want to mine on a pool that has less variance for me."  Seems like a reasonable move to me.  Solo mining also pays the same in the long run, but most people mine on pools to reduce variance.

IF difficulty was constant, than in the long run P2Pool pays out the same as other pools. However, since the difficulty is still going up every two weeks, you want to make sure to get as many payments within each two-week period as possible, otherwise you will be making less than a lower variance pool. To take this to the extreme, if you solo mine and get a block every week, you will get paid every week. If you solo mine and get a block every month, the difficulty could be increasing faster than your chances of getting a block, and you may never get a block at all (I don't think I have ever found a block, despite mining for the last 3 years with what used to be decent hardware that at one point earned me 1BTC a day)

[gmaxwell]

However, since the difficulty is still going up every two weeks, you want to make sure to get as many payments within each two-week period as possible,

This is a common misunderstanding but it just isn't how expected return works. Consider a hypothetical case where there was only ever going to be one more block ever— sort of like difficulty going up infinitely.  Your expected return of one technique vs another still works out just fine.

Future blocks— and their difficulty, higher or lower— have absolutely nothing to do with what your expected return is in choosing to mine this way or that in this instant.  The possibility of getting less than what you deserve is counterbalanced out by the possibility of getting more than what you deserve and the sum of the possibilities is the expectation. Amusingly: the chances of being overpaid are greater than being underpaid (median of the exponential distribution is less than the mean).

...and people who've been mining on p2pool all year have made something like 12% more than they expected— due to that possibility of getting somewhat more than you deserve, and perhaps some inherent forwarding advantage of P2Pool due to its distributed announcement.

Regardless of the overall variance, what pooling primarily accomplishes is reduces the probability of getting _way_ less than you deserve for weeks at a time to negligible levels, and p2pool does that quite nicely and without undermining the security design of the Bitcoin system.

[BBlitz]

Hey all,

Newbie here - been digging doges at pool.hostv.pl:9355 for almost 7 hours now, with almost 370 Accepted shares but no payout yet - is there something that's gone wrong?  Who should I contact?

http://imgur.com/vO58jl8

Any help would be much appreciated!

Thanks

I know admin of that node, I just told him that you asking.

Thanks.  Yeah, I'm guessing I don't know near enough.  I saw the dogecoins site, thought it might be fun to mine some, used the p2pool mentioned on frontpage of the site - didn't realize I guess there's no point unless I've got a an expensive rig, apparently.

Sad...

[TierNolan]

Is there a definition of the p2pool network protocol anywhere?

[maqifrnswa]

...and people who've been mining on p2pool all year have made something like 12% more than they expected

How the heck is it possible to calculate that? Is this a sampled figure?

http://p2pool.info/luck/

you can calculate the total number of hashes in the year and the expected number of blocks. You can then count the total number of blocks actually found. You do that, and you get +12%.

[astutiumRob]

...and people who've been mining on p2pool all year have made something like 12% more than they expected

How the heck is it possible to calculate that? Is this a sampled figure?

I had 120GH/s on a local P2Pool and 140Gh/s on Bitminter and made 17% more on P2Pool July-Oct (with less hashrate!), but 22% less on P2Pool For Nov - the BFL kit just can get the p2pool shares often enough, and the pool doesnt find as many blocks now - still, both have done better than the 191Gh/s on cex/ghash and obviously better than 50BTC who scammed eveyone.

[kjj]

...and people who've been mining on p2pool all year have made something like 12% more than they expected

How the heck is it possible to calculate that? Is this a sampled figure?

http://p2pool.info/luck/

you can calculate the total number of hashes in the year and the expected number of blocks. You can then count the total number of blocks actually found. You do that, and you get +12%.

How do you calculate the total number of hashes in the year? Aren't you just estimating this from the number of blocks/shares found?

What is really calculated is the number of hashes you'd have to perform to have a good chance of finding the same number of (different) blocks at the same difficulties.  That's cumbersome to say, so most people just shorten it.  Or they are confused.  Either way, when you see people say things like that, you need to expand it to the full phrase in your head when you read it.