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Author Topic: *Coin Complaint List  (Read 2128 times)
Cheshyr
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April 22, 2013, 03:54:00 PM
 #1

All the AltCoins!  I like AltCoins.  But I'm noticing many of them repeat the downfalls of previous coins.  Of course, if we don't know what went wrong, chances are we'll do it again.

List time!  What are the current difficult problems surrounding *coins, Alt or otherwise?

I'm no expert, so please comment with your additions to the list.

  • Blockchain Size
  • Confirmation Delay
  • 51% Attack Vulnerability
  • ASIC Vulnerability*
  • Difficulty Adjustment slow/fast/inconsistent/untuned to algorithm
  • Excessive Early Adopter Rewards
  • Little or No Usage outside collection and exchange

edit:
  • *Mining Investment Bias
  • Lack of Localization
  • xCoin Naming Convention can have negative connotations
  • Electrical Costs
  • Offline Usage currently impossible
  • Non-intuitive units
  • Coin Dust
  • Hard-coded parameters don't allow for non-procedural feedback mechanism
  • No perceived backing for value
  • Lack of Decentralized Exchange Mechanism
  • Inflation/Deflation enormous compared to normal currencies

edit:
  • Offensive marketing tactics deter adoption
  • Non-transparent, non-contributive premine
  • Poorly explained reward structure
  • Poorly explained in general
  • Difficult for non-technical users to adopt
  • Erratic income despite regular contribution
  • Legacy reward systems may no longer be appropriate
  • Transaction Confirmations don't scale with Transaction Size

Anything else?
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Stampbit
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April 22, 2013, 04:47:43 PM
 #2

*ASIC vulnerability
*Gpu vulnerability
*Cpu vulnerability
*Punchcard vulnerability
jago25_98
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April 22, 2013, 04:48:12 PM
 #3

Not starting something from scratch, tweaking code rather than something really different. It might be possible to come up with something truely new and different, so low bandwidth that it could run on bluetooth only, leveraging the Bitcoin network somehow... instead it's just another coin.

Not matching the Bitcoin code talent - bit harsh but it's true.

Generally not innovating. Only PPCoin & Qubic have done something like that.

Not taking the previous gains for various coins and or systems like Ripple or OT and putting it all together.

Translation.

Cynically trying to get rich quick in general.

And finally... calling it somethingCOIN.

Crypto supporter!
anderl
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April 22, 2013, 05:25:52 PM
 #4

*ASIC vulnerability
*Gpu vulnerability
*Cpu vulnerability
*Punchcard vulnerability

You forgot the Abacus vulnerability.
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April 22, 2013, 05:27:16 PM
 #5

*Punchcard vulnerability

Yes... for coins conceived in 1950.
Also, Don't forget magnetic tape vulnerabilities...  Grin

I will NEVER ask for any kind of funds up front in a buy/sale of anything on bitcointalk.

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Barnacle_Ed
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April 22, 2013, 06:50:47 PM
 #6

*Punchcard vulnerability

Yes... for coins conceived in 1950.
Also, Don't forget magnetic tape vulnerabilities...  Grin


Time to make a JokeCoin that addresses these crucial issues.... Cool



Biggest problem I have with altchains: Cloning <insert name of already existing cryptocurrency here> and making 0 significant changes to it. That's a waste of time and effort if you're not going to bother improving on existing ideas, IMHO.

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April 22, 2013, 07:35:58 PM
 #7

I think there may be a valuable use to using a clone at an appropriate time.
This has yet to be fully realized and discussed.

Interestingly enough, we have a list of alt coins, but not a list of attributes that go along with them.
What if I created a coin and wanted to make some changes --- where could I look to see if 'that's been done before'

For those who  are gonna say it -- simply 'knowing' is not a good answer.
For example -- I see BBQ coin is back.. and I also know it was originally 51% attacked.... but why -- that's what I can't find.

It would be nice to add attribute information to the Alt Coin list sticky in this forum.


I will NEVER ask for any kind of funds up front in a buy/sale of anything on bitcointalk.

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master-P
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April 22, 2013, 07:52:23 PM
 #8

*Waste of electricity

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April 22, 2013, 09:13:41 PM
 #9

Coin Complaint List aka FILE 13
jago25_98
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April 22, 2013, 09:20:22 PM
 #10

Whats Qubic? I havent heard of that before.

It's only a whitepaper at the moment. It uses IP addresses instead of proof of work. It's an interesting take on the problem. It was suggested that this could be used along with PPCoin's proof of stake to additionally change the way the network is enforced if that is wanted.

I think this is a genuine (albeit small) step forward for innovation.

Crypto supporter!
Stampbit
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April 22, 2013, 09:26:54 PM
 #11

Whats Qubic? I havent heard of that before.

It's only a whitepaper at the moment. It uses IP addresses instead of proof of work. It's an interesting take on the problem. It was suggested that this could be used along with PPCoin's proof of stake to additionally change the way the network is enforced if that is wanted.

I think this is a genuine (albeit small) step forward for innovation.

Sounds foolproof to me, we should all just drop crypto entirely and rely solely on IP addresses.
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April 22, 2013, 09:30:34 PM
 #12

* Unable to use offline
* Not able to print your own Bitcash and keep in wallet
* Weird units that force you to use small fraction of coin
* Bitdust that collects from fragments of transactions
* Entropy as coins are deleted and lost over time and don't get replaced
* Nothing prevents everyone from cloning your coin code/transaction log
* Can't be taken offline for maintenance
* Users can't easily modify terms of service democratically, so you're stuck with it as is
* Not suitable for micropayments
* Not backed by large corporation like Amazon or Google (look at success of Android)
* Doesn't impress Paul Krugman, who is a Nobel prize-winning economist and NY Times blogger, and probably the world's most intelligent human being ever
* Not backed by precious metals, and so unable to forge ring of power from it
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April 22, 2013, 10:39:49 PM
 #13

* Unable to use offline
* Not able to print your own Bitcash and keep in wallet
* scrybe checks real-world wallet, contains 14 paper bitcoins with 1.92 BTC in total value, shakes head

I LOVE paper bitcoins, no reason why altcoins are any different. Consistent VALUE is a different thing, but I keep a few blank that I can top up with my phone if I'm not truely offline, otherwise there is this invention called "change."

Rest of the list is pretty valid whining though, I'll add:
Bad for the Environment
Going to destroy bitcoin
Will NEVER get used
WILL get used


I think the new-alt value will be a junk-bond or penny stock BS market for a long time, but like everything we will hit "peak clone" at some point and the chances of lasting value for new (and many existing alts) will be doomed once there start being "traditional" uses for a coin. (maybe BBQCoin will be the coin of choice for buying BBQ at international cooking contest festivals!)

TLDR; Most arguments get hyperbolic, but I'm sure it will be a mess, with winners and losers. Just like any healthy market.

Tangent:
The above idea of using an altcoin for cooking contest events is an interesting thought experiment, you could buy coins at any time in anticipation of events, but market prices would move based on demand related to major events in such a way that could allow direct comparisons of popularity. Day of event you could sell at ticket booths with a fixed exchange rate (maybe have a parallel buy-out rate/market?) It should also be possible to embed voting/rating into the purchase process, using an address per contestant/item mechanism. Even formal judging could be included in the blockchain by giving each judge a chunk of the prize money to award as ratings from a per-category pool. PM me if you want to run with this in some way, I'd love to help make it happen.

"...as simple as possible, but no simpler" -AE
BTC/TRC/FRC: 1ScrybeSNcjqgpPeYNgvdxANArqoC6i5u Ripple:rf9gutfmGB8CH39W2PCeRbLWMKRauYyVfx LTC:LadmiD6tXq7gFZvMibhFUZegUHKXgbu1Gb
Soak
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April 22, 2013, 11:30:21 PM
 #14

If someone can develop a coin without all these problems, that will be a success for sure.

I'm agree with the "waste of electricity" issue.
Cheshyr
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April 22, 2013, 11:44:16 PM
 #15

Alright, I've updated the Op with summarizations of what I've read in the thread so far.  Keep them coming, and feel free to add to your thoughts, or point out errors.
LaggedOnUser
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April 23, 2013, 09:55:23 AM
 #16

* Unable to use offline
* Not able to print your own Bitcash and keep in wallet
* scrybe checks real-world wallet, contains 14 paper bitcoins with 1.92 BTC in total value, shakes head

I LOVE paper bitcoins, no reason why altcoins are any different. Consistent VALUE is a different thing, but I keep a few blank that I can top up with my phone if I'm not truely offline, otherwise there is this invention called "change."

Rest of the list is pretty valid whining though, I'll add:
Bad for the Environment
Going to destroy bitcoin
Will NEVER get used
WILL get used


I think the new-alt value will be a junk-bond or penny stock BS market for a long time, but like everything we will hit "peak clone" at some point and the chances of lasting value for new (and many existing alts) will be doomed once there start being "traditional" uses for a coin. (maybe BBQCoin will be the coin of choice for buying BBQ at international cooking contest festivals!)

TLDR; Most arguments get hyperbolic, but I'm sure it will be a mess, with winners and losers. Just like any healthy market.

Tangent:
The above idea of using an altcoin for cooking contest events is an interesting thought experiment, you could buy coins at any time in anticipation of events, but market prices would move based on demand related to major events in such a way that could allow direct comparisons of popularity. Day of event you could sell at ticket booths with a fixed exchange rate (maybe have a parallel buy-out rate/market?) It should also be possible to embed voting/rating into the purchase process, using an address per contestant/item mechanism. Even formal judging could be included in the blockchain by giving each judge a chunk of the prize money to award as ratings from a per-category pool. PM me if you want to run with this in some way, I'd love to help make it happen.


Ok, so I was wrong about not being able to print them out.  But you still have to go online to spend them, right?  Unless someone wants to accept your paper currency "on faith" that you haven't already spent it.  However, there is a currency, MintChip, that supposedly works offline (http://bitcoinmagazine.com/the-mintchip-the-canadian-governments-answer-to-bitcoin/).
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April 23, 2013, 12:24:33 PM
 #17



Ok, so I was wrong about not being able to print them out.  But you still have to go online to spend them, right?  Unless someone wants to accept your paper currency "on faith" that you haven't already spent it.  However, there is a currency, MintChip, that supposedly works offline (http://bitcoinmagazine.com/the-mintchip-the-canadian-governments-answer-to-bitcoin/).

Yeah, because all the other chips that we have put in the hands of criminals have been 100% untampered with (oh wait, DirectTV, Dish, AT&T, and most subway systems would disagree with that statement...) </sarc>

The problem is that you are putting your trust in a device to be 100% trustworthy and it is FAR harder to inspect than a paper bitcoin. A device that is being attacked many-to-one on a continual basis is not going to last more than a few months in the current security climate, how often do you want to have to change out your money for a new model?

I'm not saying it can't work, but the bar is a LOT higher for mintchip from a security standpoint. (plus there is the fact that it is intended for INTERNET transactions, not offline) This is also an increasing problem with physical cash, after 3 years the US Treasury is STILL working on the new $100 bill, but paper stores in Japan carry stationary with the same hologram and other technology. It's a good thing we have the creasing issue, if they fix it it might actually be hard to counterfeit.

All I need to validate a paper bitcoin is a browser, or a phone line to someone who can type firstbits into a browser for me and relay the result. Having a system that is trustable 99% of the time, but unverifiable by a normal human is LESS secure than having one with 50% trust and easy and instant verifiability, but most seem to try for 100% trust and forget about verifiability for humans.

"...as simple as possible, but no simpler" -AE
BTC/TRC/FRC: 1ScrybeSNcjqgpPeYNgvdxANArqoC6i5u Ripple:rf9gutfmGB8CH39W2PCeRbLWMKRauYyVfx LTC:LadmiD6tXq7gFZvMibhFUZegUHKXgbu1Gb
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April 24, 2013, 03:56:20 AM
 #18

I'll add

*spamming forums with threads featuring your alt-coin name (feathercoin)
*pre-mining 90% of it before it even is released (ripple)
*setting it up so that you get everything and everyone else gets nothing (freicoin)
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April 24, 2013, 06:31:32 AM
 #19

  • Excessive Early Adopter Rewards

I'd say that was true about Bitcoin, not just alt coins
LaggedOnUser
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April 24, 2013, 09:06:00 AM
 #20



Ok, so I was wrong about not being able to print them out.  But you still have to go online to spend them, right?  Unless someone wants to accept your paper currency "on faith" that you haven't already spent it.  However, there is a currency, MintChip, that supposedly works offline (http://bitcoinmagazine.com/the-mintchip-the-canadian-governments-answer-to-bitcoin/).

Yeah, because all the other chips that we have put in the hands of criminals have been 100% untampered with (oh wait, DirectTV, Dish, AT&T, and most subway systems would disagree with that statement...) </sarc>

The problem is that you are putting your trust in a device to be 100% trustworthy and it is FAR harder to inspect than a paper bitcoin. A device that is being attacked many-to-one on a continual basis is not going to last more than a few months in the current security climate, how often do you want to have to change out your money for a new model?

I'm not saying it can't work, but the bar is a LOT higher for mintchip from a security standpoint. (plus there is the fact that it is intended for INTERNET transactions, not offline) This is also an increasing problem with physical cash, after 3 years the US Treasury is STILL working on the new $100 bill, but paper stores in Japan carry stationary with the same hologram and other technology. It's a good thing we have the creasing issue, if they fix it it might actually be hard to counterfeit.

All I need to validate a paper bitcoin is a browser, or a phone line to someone who can type firstbits into a browser for me and relay the result. Having a system that is trustable 99% of the time, but unverifiable by a normal human is LESS secure than having one with 50% trust and easy and instant verifiability, but most seem to try for 100% trust and forget about verifiability for humans.

I see what you're saying.  On the other hand, MintChip is backed by the force of Canadian law.  Tampering with the system is counterfeiting, a serious offence.  Without that protection, a truly offline crowd-based currency would probably be impossible due to the reasons you suggest.
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